We feel this is a war against our whole tribe,elderly Mehsud tribesman

[S-2]

"If you sympathize with taliban go to afganistan and leave Pakistan."

Yes.

"Inflict upon our neighbors that which we can't tolerate here.

If you do so, we'll cheer your efforts but heaven forbid that you mad rabid dogs do such to us. After all, in your hour of need you found sanctuary among our tribal people while our army turned a blind eye.

How ungracious and ungrateful to bite the hand of your salvation.

Never mind that we know you've killed innocent afghans by nearly 2:1 despite ISAF's indiscriminate use of overwhelming firepower, often choosing to deliberately target them to increase the sense of mayhem, panic and despair.

Or that you've used their homes and mosques from which to hide behind human shields when confronted with your demise while targeting their daughters for disfigurement because of such unislamic attitudes of attaining an education like our dear Logic has achieved in secular Britain.

Go! Do what you will to them but leave us, your benefactors and supporters, alone for now it is we who are filled with mayhem, panic and despair. It wasn't supposed to be this way!"

Your responsibility is not to deflect your enemies upon your neighbors but destroy them. Had you only understood this in early 2002 and embraced then by choice what you do now by necessity, none of this would be happening.

 

[niaz]

Tribal elders have supported anti Pakistan forces and provided succor to Pakistan’s enemies for far too long. Political Agent, some one who is on the spot, came to the same conclusion that is why he ordered confiscation of the property of all Mahsuds.

It is a civil war and every Mahsud is a potential suspect. US interned all of the US citizens of Japanese origin during the entire period of the Second World War. I would even recommend putting Sohrab Goth and North Karachi, where majority is from Mahsud tribe under very close watch.

Time for pussy footing or wobbly knees is past. One must be able to call spade a spade without being afraid of hurting Mahsud feelings.

 

[fatman17]

‘Finish off Taliban once and for all’

* Taliban draw support from Pashtuns on both sides of Pak-Afghan border

DERA ISMAIL KHAN: The government needs to finish off Taliban once and for all in an offensive on their South Waziristan stronghold or risk them returning stronger and in greater numbers, internally displaced persons (IDPs) from South Waziristan say.

With the offensive by the Pakistan Army against the Tehreek-e-Taliban Pakistan, people who have fled the fighting, say the die-hard insurgents, backed by hundreds of foreigners, would be hard to shift from their fortified positions. “They have built bunkers and caves that cannot be hit even by bombing from the air,” said Jameel Mehsud, 75, registering at a site for IDPs at Dera Ismail Khan. Malik Mehsud, another fleeing resident, said people were not willing to support half-hearted military offensive. “If they are serious we are with them, otherwise we cannot risk our lives,” he said, adding that he feared Taliban reprisals if the government abandoned the operation, as they have done in the past, or struck a truce with Taliban leaders.

Security forces launched the offensive on Saturday after a series of bomb and commando-style attacks by the Taliban across the country. About 28,000 soldiers are battling an estimated 10,000 hard-core Taliban, including about 1,000 Uzbek fighters and some Arab Al Qaeda members. It follows a similar operation this year in the Swat valley launched after the Taliban, emboldened by a government deal that gave them greater autonomy in some parts, moved into other areas as well. The Federally Administered Tribal Areas have long enjoyed a large degree of autonomy based on sharia law and ancient custom.

Support: Taliban in Pakistan – like their brothers-in-arms in Afghanistan – draw much of their support from Pashtuns who live on both sides of the porous border, and the rugged mountains and valleys of Waziristan have become a sanctuary for militants, including Al Qaeda operatives. US unmanned drone aircraft have for years been attacking suspected Taliban positions in the country from Afghanistan, occasionally hitting wrong targets and killing civilians, further hardening local attitudes towards foreigners and a central government accused of complicity. Escaping the fighting is only half the battle, say the IDPs. “Wherever we go, people treat us with suspicion, as if we are terrorists, just because we have come from Waziristan,” said Jameel, a resident of Kaniguram, a Burki tribe’s stronghold in South Waziristan.

While the government and aid agencies do not expect a humanitarian crisis on the scale of the one that followed the Swat offensive, the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees said on Wednesday about 32,000 people had fled in the past week, joining 80,000 who left since May. Unlike in Swat, where the government established camps for the IDPs, most of those fleeing South Waziristan are staying in second homes outside the province, or with relatives or friends. Muhammad Khan, 40, accused the authorities of not thinking the offensive through before starting. “They are bombing our houses and when people try to move out they are not letting them go,” he said after arriving in DI Khan with his 12-member family following a torturous journey that usually takes only a few hours. “They have imposed curfews in several parts and are not letting us pass through blockades.”

reuters

 

[Javed3]

niaz

“”It is a civil war and every Mahsud is a potential suspect. US interned all of the US citizens of Japanese origin during the entire period of the Second World War. I would even recommend putting Sohrab Goth and North Karachi, where majority is from Mahsud tribe under very close watch””.

Racial or Ethnic discrimination against Pakistani citizens by the Government machinery has got us into the unfortunate position where we find ourselves today.


It’s like saying every Mohajir, every Ghumman, every Dogar is a potential suspect; because there are some Terror suspects amongst them. Dr. Isharat ul Ibad, Governor of Sind, was a wanted terrorist in the Major Kaleem case 1992, fled to the UK and enjoyed the hospitality of the Indian High Commission for good 5 years. He too should be interned in the “Japanese-American camp” by this logic.

 

[Javed3]

S-2

“”Your responsibility is not to deflect your enemies upon your neighbors but destroy them. Had you only understood this in early 2002 and embraced then by choice what you do now by necessity, none of this would be happening””.

You assign responsibilities, without equipping your subordinates with the necessary resources.

Your basic problem is extreme stinginess. You think you can buy a nation for a princely US$ 9 / head / year.

Had you been willing to pay decent wages, a la Israel or Georgia, life would have been a lot kinder.

Now you better get your 40,000 troops to Afghanistan in quick time. Be quick with your “surge” business; and pump more air into the torn balloon Hamid Karzai.

 

[BATMAN]

Racial or Ethnic discrimination against Pakistani citizens by the Government machinery has got us into the unfortunate position where we find ourselves today.

No it is the financial and arms assistance to terroists and their operations, which are unfortunate for Pakistan.
Any one in Pakistan working in tendem with foreign forces without the knowledge of army is an enemy of Pakistan.
In past, US marines and terrorists has been involved in killing hte very same tribals! so far Pak army is doing their best by separating the non combatant civilians and moving them to safer palces.

Dr. Isharat ul Ibad, Governor of Sind, was a wanted terrorist in the Major Kaleem case 1992, fled to the UK and enjoyed the hospitality of the Indian High Commission for good 5 years.

If it is true than it should be brought to the attention of people. Thanks to Musharraf today media is in abundance and message do go across the audiances despite the presence of large number of anti-Pakistan journalists.

 

[FireFighter]

Tribal elders have supported anti Pakistan forces and provided succor to Pakistan’s enemies for far too long. Political Agent, some one who is on the spot, came to the same conclusion that is why he ordered confiscation of the property of all Mahsuds.

It is a civil war and every Mahsud is a potential suspect. US interned all of the US citizens of Japanese origin during the entire period of the Second World War. I would even recommend putting Sohrab Goth and North Karachi, where majority is from Mahsud tribe under very close watch.

Time for pussy footing or wobbly knees is past. One must be able to call spade a spade without being afraid of hurting Mahsud feelings.

Oh wow, this is year 2009 and your thinking even predates the 1960s which led to the creation of Bangladesh through Mukti Bahini.


Your justification for discrimination and systematic ethnic cleansing of the mehsuds is really shocking.

Who would be the next, the Afridis? the Orakzai's?

How unbelievable.

 

[niaz]

niaz

“”It is a civil war and every Mahsud is a potential suspect. US interned all of the US citizens of Japanese origin during the entire period of the Second World War. I would even recommend putting Sohrab Goth and North Karachi, where majority is from Mahsud tribe under very close watch””.

Racial or Ethnic discrimination against Pakistani citizens by the Government machinery has got us into the unfortunate position where we find ourselves today.


It’s like saying every Mohajir, every Ghumman, every Dogar is a potential suspect; because there are some Terror suspects amongst them. Dr. Isharat ul Ibad, Governor of Sind, was a wanted terrorist in the Major Kaleem case 1992, fled to the UK and enjoyed the hospitality of the Indian High Commission for good 5 years. He too should be interned in the “Japanese-American camp” by this logic.

This is neither ethnic nor racial. What would you rather have, more suicide bombs and more innocents killed or treating every Mahsud a suspect? You can check the facts; political agent did actually want properties of all Mahsud elders to be confiscated.

If you travel aboad you will know that every one boarding a plane is searched thoroughly, even carrying liquids is forbidden and they ask you to remove your shoes as well. This is not discrimination but simple precaution. However, you are entitled to your views as I am to mine. After all JI Amir is still calling for support of the Taliban. I am not surprised that there are some in this forum as well.

Quote

Oh wow, this is year 2009 and your thinking even predates the 1960s which led to the creation of Bangladesh through Mukti Bahini.

Your justification for discrimination and systematic ethnic cleansing of the mehsuds is really shocking.

Who would be the next, the Afridis? the Orakzai's?

How unbelievable

Unquote


Hon Firefighter,

I admit that, not being my mother tongue, I don’t write good English. However, pray tell me by what stretch of imagination, you think that I am proposing 'Ethnic Cleansing'?

I said 'All Mahsuds are suspect' and that Sohrab Goth should be watched. When a terrorist runs away from Waziristan, where do you think he will go? Since most Mahsuds live in Sohrab Goth, isn't he most likely to seek refuge with his fellow tribesmen? By closely watching Sohrab Goth you may be able to nab a terrorist before he has carried out his attack.

Naturally majority of Mahsuds living in Karachi are not terrorists but how can you tell one from the other? Besides, those not involved have nothing to fear, they are only being watched. I am not proposing that all Mahsuds should be taking to Police Station and beaten up. You call this ethnic cleansing!

Are you disputing the fact that roots of terrorism have links to the Mahsud's of Waziristan? Wasn’t Baitualluh and now Hakimullah Mahsud head of the TTP and have TTP not brazenly claimed responsibility for the attack of GHQ? May be your honor can't find it in your heart to condemn those directly or indirectly responsible for the thousand or so Pakistanis killed in suicide attacks this year alone?

Pray advise how do you propose to control this fitna if you object to 'closely watching' Mahsud tribesmen? May be you don’t think much of other Pakistanis at all and would rather have terrorists carry on their slaughter without any hindrance.

Your example of Mukti Bahini is not relevant. Waziristan is already independent as GOP writ does not hold. Do you think there would have been a need to deploy Army and PAF jets if Waziristan was under GOP control?

 

[seekers]

Reply: We feel this is war against our whole Nation,People of Pakistan

 

[S-2]

"You assign responsibilities, without equipping your subordinates with the necessary resources.

Your basic problem is extreme stinginess. You think you can buy a nation for a princely US$ 9 / head / year.

Had you been willing to pay decent wages, a la Israel or Georgia, life would have been a lot kinder."

Subordinates?

You're basic problem is you've extended your thoughts here to new and unprecedented heights of absurdity.

Whether America exists or not, your country is under assault from within and has been for eight years.

You are welcome to defend yourselves and win or defend yourselves and lose...

...or acquiesce altogether.

Should you lose or acquiesce to an irhabist victory, then your problem will take on new emphasis requiring new and more dynamic solutions from others to match the dynamic outcomes.

It's not my responsibility to underwrite your defense while you maintain forces irrelevant to such in areas that are not under direct attack.

Have you not the world's seventh largest army for such nat'l defense? If so, exhaust those resources before stuffing your greedy paws into my pockets, sir.

Anything less is two-faced and duplicitous.

That's an order...

...subordinate.

Thanks.

 

[Javed3]

Subordinates? It is not absurdity. Yes Boss we are subordinates, your camp followers. Our country is managed by the H-H paradigm (Hillary and Holbrooke). Robert Gates also says a kind word once in a while. Gen Patreous and Gen McChrystal dictate our military operations.


“”Whether America exists or not, your country is under assault from within and has been for eight years””.
May America always flourish and reach news heights of power and prosperity. Got nothing but reverence for the great USA. BUT Please appreciate that our country was Never under assault for within before we joined your Service.


“”Should you lose or acquiesce to an irhabist victory, then your problem will take on new emphasis requiring new and more dynamic solutions from others to match the dynamic outcomes””.
Dynamic outcomes are anytime better than the lowly employment of Executive-Outcomes mercenary outfit.

“”It's not my responsibility to underwrite your defense while you maintain forces irrelevant to such in areas that are not under direct attack””.
In simple words you mean that forces be withdrawn from the Indian border and sent to Afghanistan to serve as parameter guards (like the Georgian Army in Baqoba).

“”Have you not the world's seventh largest army for such nat'l defense? If so, exhaust those resources before stuffing your greedy paws into my pockets, sir.””
We got NO resources to fight your war. You better pay at a rate commensurate with other beneficiaries like Israel. We deserve a lot more than US$ 9 / Pakistani / Head. Or bring the IDF to serve you at $ 422 / year.

 

[Solomon2]

"BUT Please appreciate that our country was Never under assault for within before we joined your Service."

Hasn't Pakistan has been "under assault" since the moment of its conception by ambitious politicians who sought to milk the country and generals desperate to justify their rank and privileges? Wasn't the Taliban created by them to further these principles?

After all, wasn't Pakistan established by an elite rather than the people, and wasn't their over-arching rationale to establish a state for "us Muslims" to govern without sharing any power or wealth with non-Muslim Indians?

 

[S-2]

"We got no resources to fight YOUR WAR."

I've changed your point of emphasis but not your words.

If our war and onerous to your fellow citizens and you then withdraw from such and accomodate those on your lands who wish to make war upon Afghanistan and yourselves.

In surrender you shall surely find the peace you seek, correct?

Either way, I welcome clarifying this issue.

It's clear that your lands hold and have held such notables as Omar, Haqqani, and Hekmatyar who rain destruction on the afghan peoples who, in turn, show no particular interest in their way of life.

The afghan people, though, tire of our efforts too, recognizing that nothing ISAF/America has done can counteract the corrosive effect of Karzai's clique. I believe that in the absence of an externally-directed afghan insurgency it might have been possible for the west to overcome or pre-empt such. Combined, the insurgency and afghan mal-governance may prove an insurmountable hurdle to any sense of stability.

Before you go off extolling the virtues of the taliban though, please note the 2009 ABC/BBC/ARD polls that show the taliban as last in favor at about 8% and the U.S. at 63%. All things being equal, Afghans would prefer something other than what Omar, et al have again in mind for them.

Argue or not about our difficulties there, there'd be measurably less so and likely manageable in the absence of an externally-directed insurgency from your lands. Equally so if their fellow-travellers among your tribal citizens such as Gul Bahadur and Maulvi Nazir felt the same.

The aborgation of your sovereign responsibilities to defend yourselves from their presence and prevent them from using your lands from which to make war on your neighbors falls to your government and citizens.

Not American citizens and taxpayers.

The toady supplication displayed to elevate the prestige of these men has infected your tribal youth. They see which way the wind blows. Join the F.C. or join the irhabists? Their preferred path is clear. One is held in disdain by the state and one is elevated as right and proper. Guess which is which.

How else can it be to their young eyes when making these choices?

Therein lies the crux of this war and from all else stems. The Islamic Emirate of Waziristan (north and south), the rest of your tribal lands and much of Baluchistan were surrendered in these intervening years.

Fight or not. That is YOUR choice. Frankly, your only choice as with our help-or not, they'll be fighting you it seems.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

After all, wasn't Pakistan established by an elite rather than the people, and wasn't their over-arching rationale to establish a state for "us Muslims" to govern without sharing any power or wealth with non-Muslim Indians?

No more than India was established by an elite rather than the people - Congress was after all basically the 'political elite' of India - how can you say for sure Congress was more representative of the people of India than the ML was of the people of Pakistan?

Hasn't Pakistan has been "under assault" since the moment of its conception by ambitious politicians who sought to milk the country and generals desperate to justify their rank and privileges? Wasn't the Taliban created by them to further these principles?

A different kind of assault for sure - but that exists in many developing countries, even India today. In India it is however overshadowed by its economic growth, but until the economic reforms started to show results (nineties or so), the rape and pillage of Indian politicians was front and center.

And the Taliban was not created by Pakistan or its politicians - it was the result of chaos, violence and the rape and pillage of Afghanistan by Afghan warlords and criminals post Soviet withdrawal. Pakistan supported it as a faction that could bring about stability in Afghanistan and help further Pakistani interests, primarily economic, as we looked to link up with the CAR's through oil and gas pipelines.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

‘Finish off Taliban once and for all’

* Taliban draw support from Pashtuns on both sides of Pak-Afghan border

DERA ISMAIL KHAN: The government needs to finish off Taliban once and for all in an offensive on their South Waziristan stronghold or risk them returning stronger and in greater numbers, internally displaced persons (IDPs) from South Waziristan say.

With the offensive by the Pakistan Army against the Tehreek-e-Taliban Pakistan, people who have fled the fighting, say the die-hard insurgents, backed by hundreds of foreigners, would be hard to shift from their fortified positions. “They have built bunkers and caves that cannot be hit even by bombing from the air,” said Jameel Mehsud, 75, registering at a site for IDPs at Dera Ismail Khan. Malik Mehsud, another fleeing resident, said people were not willing to support half-hearted military offensive. “If they are serious we are with them, otherwise we cannot risk our lives,” he said, adding that he feared Taliban reprisals if the government abandoned the operation, as they have done in the past, or struck a truce with Taliban leaders.

Security forces launched the offensive on Saturday after a series of bomb and commando-style attacks by the Taliban across the country. About 28,000 soldiers are battling an estimated 10,000 hard-core Taliban, including about 1,000 Uzbek fighters and some Arab Al Qaeda members. It follows a similar operation this year in the Swat valley launched after the Taliban, emboldened by a government deal that gave them greater autonomy in some parts, moved into other areas as well. The Federally Administered Tribal Areas have long enjoyed a large degree of autonomy based on sharia law and ancient custom.

Support: Taliban in Pakistan – like their brothers-in-arms in Afghanistan – draw much of their support from Pashtuns who live on both sides of the porous border, and the rugged mountains and valleys of Waziristan have become a sanctuary for militants, including Al Qaeda operatives. US unmanned drone aircraft have for years been attacking suspected Taliban positions in the country from Afghanistan, occasionally hitting wrong targets and killing civilians, further hardening local attitudes towards foreigners and a central government accused of complicity. Escaping the fighting is only half the battle, say the IDPs. “Wherever we go, people treat us with suspicion, as if we are terrorists, just because we have come from Waziristan,” said Jameel, a resident of Kaniguram, a Burki tribe’s stronghold in South Waziristan.

While the government and aid agencies do not expect a humanitarian crisis on the scale of the one that followed the Swat offensive, the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees said on Wednesday about 32,000 people had fled in the past week, joining 80,000 who left since May. Unlike in Swat, where the government established camps for the IDPs, most of those fleeing South Waziristan are staying in second homes outside the province, or with relatives or friends. Muhammad Khan, 40, accused the authorities of not thinking the offensive through before starting. “They are bombing our houses and when people try to move out they are not letting them go,” he said after arriving in DI Khan with his 12-member family following a torturous journey that usually takes only a few hours. “They have imposed curfews in several parts and are not letting us pass through blockades.”

reuters

So we have two divergent views on what the 'views of the displaced Mehsud' are.

'A war against the Mehsud' vs 'We support the GoP going all out against the Taliban'.

Part of the problem behind the former set of opinions is the aura of the Taliban in SW, and the various peace deals and half hearted failed offensives by the PA - the Tribes are not certain that the PA will defeat the Taliban or that it will not again enter into 'peace deals' with them. Both of those scenarios would mean a lot of trouble for those who speak out openly in support of the Pakistani offensive.

These views, IMO, will likely change if the offensive proceeds successfully and the IDP's are taken care of.