we cannot defeat isis without defeating the wahhabi theology that birthed it

[Jaanbaz]

ISIS consider Saudi monarchy as Unislamic, they are Ultra-Wahabis. Saudis fund Al-Nusra front.

 

[Khafee]

oh, come on.

first they cry about not blaming muslims and islam, fine.. blanket blaming an entire religion would be unfair, but then when you make the distinction between all islam and one particular extremist sunni offshoot, you have a problem with that too ?

what underlying problems ? evil americans and jews ?

fact is there is a problem in Islam, the problem is wahhabism, it's a nazi fascist supremacist ideology, and it must be called out for what it is.

Do you have nay idea how many "Wahabai's" exist? In excess of 50m, at least!!! All of them are terrorists? This would be equating to say all the supporters of RSS and VHP are terrorists as well.

Do try talking sense sometimes, it helps to show India in a +ve light!!

ISIS consider Saudi monarchy as Unislamic, they are Ultra-Wahabis. Saudis fund Al-Nusra front.

Thank you for stating this. Unfortunately I have arrived at the sad conclusion, that people are not on this forum to learn anything, but to spew their hatred and misguided notions!

Once again Thank You.

 

[Jaanbaz]

Thank you for stating this. Unfortunately I have arrived at the sad conclusion, that people are not on this forum to learn anything, but to spew their hatred and misguided notions!

Once again Thank You.

Don't be mistaken, I have said pretty horrid stuff regarding Wahabis. But I don't think spewing more hate is the answer against hatred. There needs to be consensus when dealing with extremist ideologies.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I don't really have time to post a proper response - I would argue that rather than targeting a specific 'sect', the focus needs to be on specific, critical 'attitudes' and 'interpretations'. There is a particular 'core' set of interpretations in Islam that cross sects and lay the roots of intolerance and hatred that groups like ISIS then exploit in certain (not all) individuals.

Just a quick list:

1. Not eating food with non-Muslims (whether monotheistic or polytheistic) - the implicit and explicit view being enforced here is that these 'others' are 'unclean' - dehumanization.

2. Not marrying non-Muslims (whether monotheistic or polytheistic) - again, implicitly/explicitly enforcing views that close relationships with the 'others' will result in Muslims being 'corrupted' - dehumanization

3. Regressive and patriarchal attitudes towards women (all faiths, though a subset of this is the further degradation of Western women, for wearing certain kinds of clothes or engaging in a male dominated workforce) - when we dehumanize our own women, what hope is there for preventing intolerance and the dehumanization of 'non-Muslims'?

4. Too much focus on 'ritual' and 'appearances' - stop harassing people about how they dress, what greeting they use, whether they pray, fast or donate. This is just a continuation of intolerance to a 'micro-level'

 

[Khafee]

Don't be mistaken, I have said pretty horrid stuff regarding Wahabis. But I don't think spewing more hate is the answer against hatred. There needs to be consensus when dealing with extremist ideologies.

I'm not mistaken my Qadiani friend. I am well aware of your views, but in this instance, you talked sense, so therefore I thanked you.

 

[Jaanbaz]

I'm not mistaken my Qadiani friend. I am well aware of your views, but in this instance, you talked sense, so therefore I thanked you.

Thanks but I'm Karachite.

 

[bongbang]

I don't think the last four impact that much as you think. The foreigners that join group like ISIS are usually literate and are not living in poverty. A person leaving UK or France to join ISIS is not due to poverty. A Saudi leaving his land to join Al Qaeda in Yemen is not due to being illiterate.

That would have been easy to control. And we would see the citizens of the poorest & most illiterate as the highest number of terrorists, but that is usually not so.

Therefore, to solve the problem of terrorism, we should first better understand what affects it. Looking at the wrong variables (such as poverty) confuses the matter and distracts us.

You are right there about foreigners getting involved in these countries. My point was regarding ISIS. Which is in Iraq and Syria. UK citizens who gone there are too illiterate,poor and jobless, their head was filled with these nonsense in their own country. The Iraqi Sunnis who joined ISIS too are poor,illiterate and jobless. Also the power vacuum created there due US invasion removing Saddam regime. Now US helping to uproot Assad regime helping IS creating a power vacuum in Syria too.

 

[RoadRunner401]

this is something I've been saying for a while, nice to see other people say it as well.
Simply blaming Wahhabism won't solve anything, it's just a way to scapegoat a certain sect without addressing the underlying problems.
Because, many times, the reason why the stop being extremists is exactly the same reason why they became extremists in the first place, a lack of knowledge + a need for belonging: These two are a dangerous combination.

So, who should, we blame for destroying Islam, alien from Mars?

 

[Indus Falcon]

Thanks but I'm Karachite.

You are not an Ahmedi / Qadiani?

 

[Barrel-Bomba]

You are right there about foreigners getting involved in these countries. My point was regarding ISIS. Which is in Iraq and Syria. UK citizens who gone there are too illiterate,poor and jobless, their head was filled with these nonsense in their own country. The Iraqi Sunnis who joined ISIS too are poor,illiterate and jobless. Also the power vacuum created there due US invasion removing Saddam regime. Now US helping to uproot Assad regime helping IS creating a power vacuum in Syria too.

about the Iraqi sunnis, it's not just the poor, a lot of ISIS' top commanders are former Saddam army baathists who just found the seemingly strongest jihadi group in the region to gang up with and cause all chaos.

case in point, the king of clubs:

in fact very initially when they'd just taken just tikrit and mosul in a spectacularly brutal fashion and spammed social media with vids of that conquest, there were reports of some infighting between the baathists and islamists who formed the core of the group but looks like they reached an agreement later.

isis today are a lethal combine of butthurt saddam army guys, poor disaffected sunnis, and psychotic western born and bred wahhabis (anjem choudary fanboys etc)

 

[Jaanbaz]

You are not an Ahmedi / Qadiani?

I'm Ahmadi. Qadiani=someone born in Qadian. So no I'm not Qadiani.

 

[Indus Falcon]

I'm Ahmadi. Qadiani=someone born in Qadian. So no I'm not Qadiani.

 

[Khafee]

I'm Ahmadi. Qadiani=someone born in Qadian. So no I'm not Qadiani.

I apologize. Sorry my Ahmedi brother.

 

[ultron]

ISIS consider Saudi monarchy as Unislamic, they are Ultra-Wahabis. Saudis fund Al-Nusra front.

Saudi Arabia, like UAE, is staunchly anti Islamic. Saudi Arabia targets Nusra.

 

[That Guy]

oh, come on.

first they cry about not blaming muslims and islam, fine.. blanket blaming an entire religion would be unfair, but then when you make the distinction between all islam and one particular extremist sunni offshoot, you have a problem with that too ?

what underlying problems ? evil americans and jews ?

fact is there is a problem in Islam, the problem is wahhabism, it's a nazi fascist supremacist ideology, and it must be called out for what it is.

Don't put words into my mouth. Just because I'm saying that wahhabism shouldn't be blamed, it does not mean that I'm saying that americans and jews are the problem. Don't take this as a personal attack, but this is the problem with your type of thinking; you think that if I'm not saying one thing, I must be saying the complete opposite. There is no middle ground for your thinking, or even an alternative theory.

I can bet you don't know much about Wahhabi teachings, so I suggest that you not assume that you know what the problem with it is. This is blanket blaming an entire ideological sect, all you're doing is narrowing it down by one centimeter.

You can believe what you want, the truth is that blaming Islam, or even one of it's sects won't solve anything, because all you're doing is scapegoating. In order to understand the situation, one must look the history and geopolitics of the regions involved. What has happened to the nation's governments and politics, how their security situations were, how they interacted with the global powers, and how their people lived day by day. It's not that hard, it just takes long to compile the data.

Simply blaming one sect is really just brushing aside the real problem, because it's easy to place blame, rather than dealing with the actual problem that exists.

So, who should, we blame for destroying Islam, alien from Mars?

Islam hasn't been destroyed. It's not about placing blame, it's about finding a solution by looking at the actual problems. Placing blame gets no body anywhere.

An example, ISIS's origin is in Iraq, and it's foundation was built in US prisons in Iraq, where it's leaders were held. Now, we could blame the US, or the Iraqi establishments that didn't see this coming, but how can we be sure that this could even be seen coming? We don't, we simply don't have the answer to that. What the US and Iraq did was increase security measures to prevent any such events from occurring in the future. How well that goes, is anyone's guess.

In this case, what is the solution? For this we need to look at the history of the issues, and find a way to make sure it never happens again. It was never the Wahhabis that caused AQ and ISIS to become a reality, no AQ and ISIS simply used it as a very potent weapon. A gun is nothing but a lump of metal, if there are no bullets.

Anyway, I would go on, but I don't have much time, so all I'll say is that the answer to this isn't simply blaming the first thing you see. Look at the entire situation, and keep in mind, common links don't always imply common cause.