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Was hero-making of Tipu Sultan a necessity?

My hair can turn pink but you, Levina can never pass through as a Hindutva warrior :D. The post was made in general to assert once again that judging historical characters with modern day parameters like nationalism, secularism or liberalism may lead often to erroneous results.

As far as this very argument of his dwindling strength against the Marathas are concerned , aggregate strength of Tipu's Cavalry, artillery and infantry estimated around a massive 143,000 in 1790, at the time when Sringeri Math was to be plundered. So, it may not be correct to assume that his sympathy to the Math was merely for the Hindu support of his kingdom. He was consistent with his land donation for HIndu temples through out his short lived tenure, not just at the point of crisis.

Pink - I thought your scalp was as bald as a baby's bottom ! :undecided:

But @levina apa is like that; ever since she found out that Tip Sultan was my great-great-great-great.....-great grandfather (ziyadaaa great ho giyaa haiii...itneiii peecheiii jateiii jateiii tou bandaa Neanderthals tuk pohanch jataa haii :lol: ) shes been on his case ! :angry:

I suppose the only consolation could be that she idolizes Aurangzeb and even her facebook profile introduces her as 'Levina Alamgirni' in homage to the great Mughal King who Levina Apa is a direct descendant of ! :o:
 
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He was consistent with his land donation for HIndu temples through out his short lived tenure, not just at the point of crisis.
Nope. He gave land grants to a total of 156 temples as recorded in his docs*. That's the average number of decent temples in a single district in this country today. The number of temples destroyed runs into thousands. :D

Secondly, I have recently read of an inaam of land to the Guruvayoor temple from a piece by an eminent secular historian named C.K.Ahmed. ;) As it turns out, I dug into it and found that the temple was itself actually looted and gutted by this secular hero called Tipu Sultan. Here's what the Illustrated Weekly of India states about the incident.
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Source: Illustrated Weekly of India
Edition: January 2, 1977

All said, the glorification of this genocidal maniac needs to end. There are plenty of Muslim rulers who had a more decent history. There is a motion being prepared that will outlaw the glorification/idolizing criminals. Sanjay Khan, in a different country(Austria or Germany perhaps) would(actually should) have gone to jail.

*That is if we take them for granted. That becomes difficult because the same docs go on into gory details how many idolators were invited to islam and under what circumstances. But I guess the former is true while the latter must be false.

As for a total strength on paper of 143000 is concerned, one of the five Maratha federations itself had as many troops (of all types). Plus numbers at this time did not matter because we have seen how tactics, firepower and strategy shaped battles more than numbers on the ground. Plassey, Buxar etc all showed a similar trend - even the (2nd and 3rd)Anglo Maratha wars later.

A fairly good article about the futility of absolute character assessment of historical figures especially the ones like Tipu and a must read for Hindutva warriors who are exceedingly loud about Tipu's bigotry but conveniently oblivious about the regular Marhatta plunder of Hindu temples, who later became the national emblem of Hindutva pride.

Why we love to hate Tipu Sultan - Livemint
This is one of the most infamous instances of secular falsehoods. Islamic apologists often peddle this lie over and over again without the slightest evidence whatsoever. I looked this up after a visit to Kolkata's famous National Library and found hundreds of 'sources' that quoted each other with this information. But there is no mention of the loot anywhere in either the Maratha records nor in any apologetic account of the rulers of Mysore henceforth.

There is one important Maratha connection though -
Most of the names from the Sringeri lineage up to Vidyaranya are also found in the Sri Guru Charitra, a 15th-century Marathi work by Gangadhara Saraswathi. :D

What the secular eminent historians forget is that the Maratha armies had a fair share of Muslims as well, and even the Nizam also fought Tipu. The point is that it was not just a fight against Islam here, so the fight against Tipu was not a victory of Hindutva, just the liberation of the Hindus of that time.

Besides I find it funny to equate the alleged (and unproven) plunder of temples by the (Hindu and hence evil) 'Marhatta's with the mass slaughter and forced conversion and destruction of places of worship by (just regular contemporary not bad guys like ) the Muslims.

I suppose the only consolation could be that she idolizes Aurangzeb and even her facebook profile introduces her as 'Levina Alamgirni' in homage to the great Mughal King who Levina Apa is a direct descendant of !
No, that's me. I am the direct descendant of the later Mughals. :devil: That's where my intolerance comes from. :whistle:
 
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Nope. He gave land grants to a total of 156 temples as recorded in his docs*. That's the average number of decent temples in a single district in this country today. The number of temples destroyed runs into thousands. :D


*That is if we take them for granted. That becomes difficult because the same docs go on into gory details how many idolators were invited to islam and under what circumstances. But I guess the former is true while the latter must be false.
Don't you think its a bit illogical to compare the number of temples three hundred years back with the number of temples today? Also when the number may vary from region to region? And again 'temple destroyed in thousands' tells who and on what basis? Contemporary Islamic sources had unenviable ability to portray the rulers as glorious flag bearer of the Islamic flag but who checks the veracity of those numbers?

Secondly, I have recently read of an inaam of land to the Guruvayoor temple from a piece by an eminent secular historian named C.K.Ahmed. ;) As it turns out, I dug into it and found that the temple was itself actually looted and gutted by this secular hero called Tipu Sultan. Here's what the Illustrated Weekly of India states about the incident.
View attachment 231084
Source: Illustrated Weekly of India
Edition: January 2, 1977

All said, the glorification of this genocidal maniac needs to end. There are plenty of Muslim rulers who had a more decent history. There is a motion being prepared that will outlaw the glorification/idolizing criminals. Sanjay Khan, in a different country(Austria or Germany perhaps) would(actually should) have gone to jail.

No body denied that temples had been desecrated. Neither no one here had claimed him to be ardently secular as we often see it as a qualifying characteristics.

As for a total strength on paper of 143000 is concerned, one of the five Maratha federations itself had as many troops (of all types). Plus numbers at this time did not matter because we have seen how tactics, firepower and strategy shaped battles more than numbers on the ground. Plassey, Buxar etc all showed a similar trend - even the (2nd and 3rd)Anglo Maratha wars later.

That in no way proves that Tipu wanted to win the confidence of his non-Muslim subjects. Little evidences suggest that Tipu was not formidable enough to repel the Marathas.

This is one of the most infamous instances of secular falsehoods. Islamic apologists often peddle this lie over and over again without the slightest evidence whatsoever. I looked this up after a visit to Kolkata's famous National Library and found hundreds of 'sources' that quoted each other with this information. But there is no mention of the loot anywhere in either the Maratha records nor in any apologetic account of the rulers of Mysore henceforth.

There is one important Maratha connection though -
Most of the names from the Sringeri lineage up to Vidyaranya are also found in the Sri Guru Charitra, a 15th-century Marathi work by Gangadhara Saraswathi. :D

What the secular eminent historians forget is that the Maratha armies had a fair share of Muslims as well, and even the Nizam also fought Tipu. The point is that it was not just a fight against Islam here, so the fight against Tipu was not a victory of Hindutva, just the liberation of the Hindus of that time.

No proof!!! Are we missing A narrative of the operations of Captain Little's detachment, and of the Mahratta army, commanded by Purseram Bhow; during the late confederacy in India, against the Nawab Tippoo Sultan Bahadur, London, J.Johnson, 1794 by Edward Moor. Its funny to see how conveniently Kirkpatricks become dearer to the Hindu supremacists but not some one like Moor.

Besides I find it funny to equate the alleged (and unproven) plunder of temples by the (Hindu and hence evil) 'Marhatta's with the mass slaughter and forced conversion and destruction of places of worship by (just regular contemporary not bad guys like ) the Muslims.

Nothing funny at all but selective cherry picking (just as you said before). If Islamic conquest of India is guilty of mass slaughter, forced conversion and desecration of temples, so is the Maratha Hindu principalities who are worshiped to day by the Hindutva brigade. If you are interested in classical Bengali literature, you would see how much infamous the Maratha plunderers were in Bengal, practically left starved villages after villages, looting and raping women. Mysore and Bengal, both witnessed the horridness of Maratha expeditions. Francis Buchanan-Hamilton, appointed Surveyor of Tipu’s provinces annexed by the Company in 1799, asked the amildar(local official) of Sagar, near Shimoga, to compare Tipu and the Marathas. The amildar said and the Surveyor reported thus

"Tippoo’s government, when compared with that of the Marattahs, was excellent; and, notwithstanding all the evils the people suffered from the extortions of theAsophs, and the attacks of invading armies, they enjoyed a comparatively greater security. The government never subsisted by open plunder; whereas among the Marattah chiefs there are very few who do not support their troops by avowed robbery. "

So, please stop seeing everything black and white, because history has so much grey sheds in it that its quite impossible to take side in such a confusing scenario.
 
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Don't you think its a bit illogical to compare the number of temples three hundred years back with the number of temples today? Also when the number may vary from region to region? And again 'temple destroyed in thousands' tells who and on what basis? Contemporary Islamic sources had unenviable ability to portray the rulers as glorious flag bearer of the Islamic flag but who checks the veracity of those numbers?
I mentioned 'decent' Temples . Temples that have history, not just that come up every mile or so. It is a remarkable quality of Islamic apologists to quote Islamic sources when they fund a temple but they become suspect when the destruction of a temple is mentioned. :)

No body denied that temples had been desecrated. Neither no one here had claimed him to be ardently secular as we often see it as a qualifying characteristics.
Danke. :)

That in no way proves that Tipu wanted to win the confidence of his non-Muslim subjects. Little evidences suggest that Tipu was not formidable enough to repel the Marathas.
Of course. He never wanted to win the confidence of the non Muslim subjects. Tipu was no match for the Maratha Confederacy. This he knew. his letters to the Marathas show this where he, and I quote, states - 'We are not your enemies, the British are the ones we need to look out for'.

Sounds classy?

Then he writes another letter to the King of Afghanistan (and later to other Muslim rulers in South India) requesting support for a 'war to clean the land of Kafirs/Brahmans' just a while later. :D

Are we missing A narrative of the operations of Captain Little's detachment, and of the Mahratta army, commanded by Purseram Bhow; during the late confederacy in India, against the Nawab Tippoo Sultan Bahadur, London, J.Johnson, 1794 by Edward Moor. Its funny to see how conveniently Kirkpatricks become dearer to the Hindu supremacists but not some one like Moor.
Not really funny. It's actually a painful history. Islamic apologists may not get this but that's a different matter.

If Islamic conquest of India is guilty of mass slaughter, forced conversion and desecration of temples, so is the Maratha Hindu principalities who are worshiped to day by the Hindutva brigade. If you are interested in classical Bengali literature, you would see how much infamous the Maratha plunderers were in Bengal, practically left starved villages after villages, looting and raping women. Mysore and Bengal, both witnessed the horridness of Maratha expeditions. Francis Buchanan-Hamilton, appointed Surveyor of Tipu’s provinces annexed by the Company in 1799, asked the amildar(local official) of Sagar, near Shimoga, to compare Tipu and the Marathas. The amildar said and the Surveyor reported thus

"Tippoo’s government, when compared with that of the Marattahs, was excellent; and, notwithstanding all the evils the people suffered from the extortions of theAsophs, and the attacks of invading armies, they enjoyed a comparatively greater security. The government never subsisted by open plunder; whereas among the Marattah chiefs there are very few who do not support their troops by avowed robbery. "
First and foremost, I don't necessarily worship the Marathas as you allege. You on the other hand consider Tipu as your 'hero'. Such claims I never made as far as the Marathas were concerned. Marathas did raid all Muslim principalities, and this included the Nawab's Bengali dominions.

Finally the report of an Amildar would heap praises on Tipu instead of on the Marathas is as natural as the Soviets would have to say about the efficiency of gulags in nicely re-educating the class enemies. :P

As for history being gray, there is no doubt about that. Nobody denies Tipu's personal bravery, his skills in combat, his persistence.
 
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scorpionx said:
As far as this very argument of his dwindling strength against the Marathas are concerned , aggregate strength of Tipu's Cavalry, artillery and infantry estimated around a massive 143,000 in 1790, at the time when Sringeri Math was to be plundered. .
It is not just about the Marathas, he also faced defeat at the hands of Nairs of Travancore (1789), the Nair Army was supported by the Britishers. He lost to Nairs not once but twice, Mysore army was defeated by the Nair army at Aluva (central kerala)also, these successive losses taught Tipu a few lessons.
Britishers were spoiling his game using the hindu kings of neighboring states against him, Tipu clearly didnt want to antagonize them (the hindus) any further. I will say he was quick to learn from his mistakes.
scorpionx said:
So, it may not be correct to assume that his sympathy to the Math was merely for the Hindu support of his kingdom. He was consistent with his land donation for HIndu temples through out his short lived tenure, not just at the point of crisis
His donations to the Sringeri mutt were consistent after 1791. His first donation to Sringeri mutt was 200 rahatis in cash and other gifts and articles (like the crystal linga). And his donations to Melkote and Lakshmikanta temple were gold and silver vessels.
One look at the timeline will tell you that his donations were politically motivated.

My hair can turn pink but you, Levina can never pass through as a Hindutva warrior :D.
:lol: :lol: :lol:
I just imagined you in pink hairs. :rolleyes:

Check this one and he have many non-muslim in his army and french people also part of Sultan army

RELIGIOUS INTOLERANCE OF TIPU SULTAN
Lolzz
Did you care to read the link you had pasted???
In case you missed it, this is what it says..

upload_2015-6-21_10-40-43.png
 
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Bibi anyone can edit wikipedia, converting hindus in to Islam is duty of every muslim. But there is no proof that he slaughtered innocent kids and women which is forbidden in Islam.

LOL @ Peshawar then?

It is not just about the Marathas, he also faced defeat at the hands of Nairs of Travancore (1789), the Nair Army was supported by the Britishers. He lost to Nairs not once but twice, Mysore army was defeated by the Nair army at Aluva (central kerala)also, these successive losses taught Tipu a few lessons.
Britishers were spoiling his game using the hindu kings of neighboring states against him, Tipu clearly didnt want to antagonize them (the hindus) any further. I will say he was quick to learn from his mistakes.

His donations to the Sringeri mutt were consistent after 1791. His first donation to Sringeri mutt was 200 rahatis in cash and other gifts and articles (like the crystal linga). And his donations to Melkote and Lakshmikanta temple were gold and silver vessels.
One look at the timeline will tell you that his donations were politically motivated.


:lol: :lol: :lol:
I just imagined you in pink hairs. :rolleyes:


Lolzz
Did you care to read the link you had pasted???
In case you missed it, this is what it says..

View attachment 231239

Just visit BBMP office in Bangalore to find out number of Muslim Dewans and all this glorious Tipu theory will evaporate like ammonia.
 
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