Vision 2025, population bomb, mega cities and transport infrastructure

[Secur]

The amount of Rizq you will get in your life is written for you. No one can change it except God. This is not religious manipulation.
Yes there is a strong correlation between resources and population. If there is rapid population growth, that means there are resources available. Populations correct themselves on their own. People who are aiming for children want to have those children, and if the child is born then it is God's will. There are so many Pakistanis who are childless.. If the children end up in horrible circumstances, then that is failing on the part of the parents, a social issue. It does not mean kids of poor parents be looked as possibilities of ending up in madrasas,and therefore those parents be targeted especially as future candidates for a burden on society. The absurdity of this idea is evident.
All men are conscious of their decision. Having children, is a big thing. Educating families about quality of life as a nation state is a good thing. But to manipulate their minds into believing it is dependent on the amount of future children they will have is treachery.

No, it is used to manipulate people into thinking that no matter how many they bring in this world, it is the duty of God to provide them Rizq and their poverty and the fact that they are barely able to feed themselves properly is no reason to back down. Take my assurance, that the same God doesn't seem interested in the idea as evident by the state of those extremely large families and their children, whom I either see begging all day or involved in anti-social activities or working their *** off when they should be attending school or living miserably. The rapid population growth by no chance, means that there are more resources available, living on donations all your life, working in subhuman conditions, spending your childhood working as unskilled labor in subhuman conditions, living on half rations and feeding off your extra brothers/sisters isn't considered as availability of resources. People who are aiming for children, of course want to have children, they just aren't interested in providing a better life for them and mostly do not care about themselves since they are already dirt poor, if you have the money and resources to feed,raise,manage and handle them there's no argument. But if the sole aim is to bring more and more into this world without thinking about their future, please do not proceed. You aren't doing this country good, you aren't doing this society good. God wouldn't raise them for you, even if that what the Mullahs are promising. Life isn't everything, the quality of that life matters.

I am sure that you aren't making the point that the parents opting for 10-12 children are making up for the childless people? The argument is that those extra children are bound to end up in horrible circumstances if the parents are poor, think of it how do you expect a man to feed those extra mouths without either asking them to work from an early age or without an unavoidable substantial decrease in quality of life when he was barely feeding the existing ones? From there, its a straight ride to becoming a burden on society.

You assume rationality on part of all men, I dont. It doesn't exist, ideally it would but the real world is very different from the ones we have in mind. Having children is a big thing, having extra children isn't. This is no manipulation, they rather hear it from someone rather than experiencing it first hand, when the boat will have already sailed and its too late.

@Akheilos @Armstrong Thoughts?

 

[Armstrong]

@Secur - No sandwich.....no Thoughts !

 

[Dubious]

No, it is used to manipulate people into thinking that no matter how many they bring in this world, it is the duty of God to provide them Rizq and their poverty and the fact that they are barely able to feed themselves properly is no reason to back down. Take my assurance, that the same God doesn't seem interested in the idea as evident by the state of those extremely large families and their children, whom I either see begging all day or involved in anti-social activities or working their *** off when they should be attending school or living miserably. The rapid population growth by no chance, means that there are more resources available, living on donations all your life, working in subhuman conditions, spending your childhood working as unskilled labor in subhuman conditions, living on half rations and feeding off your extra brothers/sisters isn't considered as availability of resources. People who are aiming for children, of course want to have children, they just aren't interested in providing a better life for them and mostly do not care about themselves since they are already dirt poor, if you have the money and resources to feed,raise,manage and handle them there's no argument. But if the sole aim is to bring more and more into this world without thinking about their future, please do not proceed. You aren't doing this country good, you aren't doing this society good. God wouldn't raise them for you, even if that what the Mullahs are promising. Life isn't everything, the quality of that life matters.

I am sure that you aren't making the point that the parents opting for 10-12 children are making up for the childless people? The argument is that those extra children are bound to end up in horrible circumstances if the parents are poor, think of it how do you expect a man to feed those extra mouths without either asking them to work from an early age or without an unavoidable substantial decrease in quality of life when he was barely feeding the existing ones? From there, its a straight ride to becoming a burden on society.

You assume rationality on part of all men, I dont. It doesn't exist, ideally it would but the real world is very different from the ones we have in mind. Having children is a big thing, having extra children isn't. This is no manipulation, they rather hear it from someone rather than experiencing it first hand, when the boat will have already sailed and its too late.

@Akheilos @Armstrong Thoughts?

huh? Summary! I am seeing stars! wait let me try again!

 

[Fracker]

No, it is used to manipulate people into thinking that no matter how many they bring in this world, it is the duty of God to provide them Rizq and their poverty and the fact that they are barely able to feed themselves properly is no reason to back down. Take my assurance, that the same God doesn't seem interested in the idea as evident by the state of those extremely large families and their children, whom I either see begging all day or involved in anti-social activities or working their *** off when they should be attending school or living miserably. The rapid population growth by no chance, means that there are more resources available, living on donations all your life, working in subhuman conditions, spending your childhood working as unskilled labor in subhuman conditions, living on half rations and feeding off your extra brothers/sisters isn't considered as availability of resources. People who are aiming for children, of course want to have children, they just aren't interested in providing a better life for them and mostly do not care about themselves since they are already dirt poor, if you have the money and resources to feed,raise,manage and handle them there's no argument. But if the sole aim is to bring more and more into this world without thinking about their future, please do not proceed. You aren't doing this country good, you aren't doing this society good. God wouldn't raise them for you, even if that what the Mullahs are promising. Life isn't everything, the quality of that life matters.

I am sure that you aren't making the point that the parents opting for 10-12 children are making up for the childless people? The argument is that those extra children are bound to end up in horrible circumstances if the parents are poor, think of it how do you expect a man to feed those extra mouths without either asking them to work from an early age or without an unavoidable substantial decrease in quality of life when he was barely feeding the existing ones? From there, its a straight ride to becoming a burden on society.

You assume rationality on part of all men, I dont. It doesn't exist, ideally it would but the real world is very different from the ones we have in mind. Having children is a big thing, having extra children isn't. This is no manipulation, they rather hear it from someone rather than experiencing it first hand, when the boat will have already sailed and its too late.

Well, this is the common misconception that, beggar beg since they can't support the family. Beggar are beggars, since they are used to do so. Nothing more.

There is common perception, the more kids you have the more hands you will have to run the show. And from personal experience, more kids don't make burden on you, but do help you to move up in the society wise. Yes, if one earn and there are many people to eat, things can go bad. But if same number join the cause, same family does exceptionally well, financial wise and standard wise.

Poority is more linked to the fighting spirit on has. Those who fight are bound to improve, and get better status in the society. We used to have one massi who used to wash our cloths.. She was having 4 sons and around same number of daughters. She managed to send her one son to Germany, and then two more son went to the Germany. She brought house one in front of our house, then another and then third. She combined all three houses, and made up a house even bigger and taller infront of our house. Her children were not so educated, just matric.

I have examples many examples alike , 9 daughters, 1 son, and so o on. they managed, and managed very well. Life is struggle, the hard you get, harder you become, and growth is must. And Allah don't help those who don't help themselves. No one dies since he can't full fill the food, but because his greed and mismanagement. Throughout my career I learned one thing, "Never go for 'Asking' other then Allah". Since may be first time you think you will pay, but after sometime it become normal.

Reduce your need until you can afford a better life, kids no kids is merely a problem. mismanagement can bring you on the road even if you don't have kids.

 

[Dubious]

No, it is used to manipulate people into thinking that no matter how many they bring in this world, it is the duty of God to provide them Rizq and their poverty and the fact that they are barely able to feed themselves properly is no reason to back down. Take my assurance, that the same God doesn't seem interested in the idea as evident by the state of those extremely large families and their children, whom I either see begging all day or involved in anti-social activities or working their *** off when they should be attending school or living miserably. The rapid population growth by no chance, means that there are more resources available, living on donations all your life, working in subhuman conditions, spending your childhood working as unskilled labor in subhuman conditions, living on half rations and feeding off your extra brothers/sisters isn't considered as availability of resources. People who are aiming for children, of course want to have children, they just aren't interested in providing a better life for them and mostly do not care about themselves since they are already dirt poor, if you have the money and resources to feed,raise,manage and handle them there's no argument. But if the sole aim is to bring more and more into this world without thinking about their future, please do not proceed. You aren't doing this country good, you aren't doing this society good. God wouldn't raise them for you, even if that what the Mullahs are promising. Life isn't everything, the quality of that life matters.

I am sure that you aren't making the point that the parents opting for 10-12 children are making up for the childless people? The argument is that those extra children are bound to end up in horrible circumstances if the parents are poor, think of it how do you expect a man to feed those extra mouths without either asking them to work from an early age or without an unavoidable substantial decrease in quality of life when he was barely feeding the existing ones? From there, its a straight ride to becoming a burden on society.

You assume rationality on part of all men, I dont. It doesn't exist, ideally it would but the real world is very different from the ones we have in mind. Having children is a big thing, having extra children isn't. This is no manipulation, they rather hear it from someone rather than experiencing it first hand, when the boat will have already sailed and its too late.

@Akheilos @Armstrong Thoughts?

Well ALLAH said for each child the rizq is written now that just means ALLAH knows the future and hence has written an amount...Like when you write a proposal for a project you give estimations of what it will be about:

Why you are doing this research
$$ needed
what the expected results are ...

but your results may change even your project may change altogether.....

I hope the analogy helps...

Beggar are beggars, since they are used to do so. Nothing more.

I beg to differ...not all are what the eyes sees! Some a re genuinely begging for some daily food!

 

[Fracker]

I beg to differ...not all are what the eyes sees! Some a re genuinely begging for some daily food!

I don't mean genuine or non genuine. I mean, when you go out your limit, you are bound to get disgraced what so ever. What ever you earn, be in that will only allows you to grow further. Almost all the beggars I have seen, if they are getting 300 a day, they used it regularly, but If someday they get 5000 they don't even try to save or do investment somehow to improve. You ask onetime, and then become used to it.

When it comes to the poor workers, who don't dependent upon begging at all, are little bit different, always try to improve themselves, to make the difference.

 

[Dubious]

they don't even try to save or do investment somehow to improve. You ask onetime, and then become used to it.

I agree on this bit...they literally live for the day ...koi pata nai kal ho na ho!

When it comes to the poor workers, who don't dependent upon begging at all, are little bit different, always try to improve themselves, to make the difference.

Fair enough!

 

[VCheng]

Pakistan is set to launch its ‘Vision 2025’.

Such "vision" plans will see as well as a blind man with cataracts.

What is needed is emergency planning to set a foundation upon which such long term planning can work. Otherwise these are meaningless, just like many before.

 

[Secur]

Well, this is the common misconception that, beggar beg since they can't support the family. Beggar are beggars, since they are used to do so. Nothing more.
There is common perception, the more kids you have the more hands you will have to run the show. And from personal experience, more kids don't make burden on you, but do help you to move up in the society wise. Yes, if one earn and there are many people to eat, things can go bad. But if same number join the cause, same family does exceptionally well, financial wise and standard wise.

There are genuine beggars, though I know the curse of begging where even well-off people are found engaging in it. Thats not the point however, anybody would beg if he cant work and if he doesn't have food in his stomach, multiply it by ten if your family's starving too, this is human nature. The instinct of self preservation will be at work, sure. The point is having more children with existing scarce resources makes you prone to that outcome, an extremely high risk group so to speak.

The perception you speak of, is one thats true for tribal mentality, unfortunately despite all the religious backing and a few success stories here and there, it doesn't seem to be working. More children do not exactly equal prosperity today, by any means. If something, they are all about adding further burden on the society with their need for more resources, one that is conveniently absent from their parents relying on God to do the raising. The startup capital and the base has dramatically shifted upwards today, a person needs education before he can earn what the tribals were earning without it, the requirements have changed in this era. Kids need to be provided with education before they can earn and if that sort of money isn't there with you, I think we all know the logical end. Those children who should be studying at school are found to be working under pathetic conditions for a meagre amount of money, just to keep their families afloat. I see it everyday passing through shanties, its heart breaking. That Rizq that you people speak of, is ironically absent where its needed most or maybe the apparent interpretation is wrong itself.

P.S Not talking about people who have the resources and money to feed/raise a large family.

Well ALLAH said for each child the rizq is written now that just means ALLAH knows the future and hence has written an amount...Like when you write a proposal for a project you give estimations of what it will be about:

I get it, but then the Rizq doesn't appear to be a fixed amount, true?

 

[Fracker]

There are genuine beggars, though I know the curse of begging where even well-off people are found engaging in it. Thats not the point however, anybody would beg if he cant work and if he doesn't have food in his stomach, multiply it by ten if your family's starving too, this is human nature. The instinct of self preservation will be at work, sure. The point is having more children with existing scarce resources makes you prone to that outcome, an extremely high risk group so to speak.

The perception you speak of, is one thats true for tribal mentality, unfortunately despite all the religious backing and a few success stories here and there, it doesn't seem to be working. More children do not exactly equal prosperity today, by any means. If something, they are all about adding further burden on the society with their need for more resources, one that is conveniently absent from their parents relying on God to do the raising. The startup capital and the base has dramatically shifted upwards today, a person needs education before he can earn what the tribals were earning without it, the requirements have changed in this era. Kids need to be provided with education before they can earn and if that sort of money isn't there with you, I think we all know the logical end. Those children who should be studying at school are found to be working under pathetic conditions for a meagre amount of money, just to keep their families afloat. I see it everyday passing through shanties, its heart breaking. That Rizq that you people speak of, is ironically absent where its needed most or maybe the apparent interpretation is wrong itself.

P.S Not talking about people who have the resources and money to feed/raise a large family.

?

I know people' intact my whole life were around them only. Which taught me only one thing, first time you beg it hits your ego, later on it become norm. The people, who want to avoid begging, always find the way.

And it's new Few stories, we have seen from ages this happens. Poor who fight back, grow. The poor with or without too many kids always fall, who don't have enough courage to grow up. More children do work very well in tribal society, especially when i speak about Pathans, the work together. One person is doing one Job, other other. And they live together makes it saving cost of living. And in the end, they do acquire handsome businesses. But it has been seen people falling with only one son, due to their mismanagement.

Yes rizq is from Allah, and also when you get a new person in your family you get promotion, get extra business or so, All i have witness. But this doesn't means you aren't searching for that rizq hard enough for what ever you have and expect new kid will bring something with himself.

 

[Dubious]

I get it, but then the Rizq doesn't appear to be a fixed amount, true?

First we must understand 1 point ALLAH is all knowledgeable meaning he has the knowledge of the unseen....of the future...he also has knowledge of how and what our niat will be and how and what we will ask for and grow up to be...everything

So he wrote the proposal as our rizq (with what WE MAY REQUIRE or per say minimal requirement)

and told us that we have free will and here is the list of conditions: do good get heaven..do bad get hell.... (materials and methods)

Then we live our life and get our results....which if we ask for more we may get based on ALLAH's mercy...

And in conclusion we can modify the proposal based on our results ONLY!

 

[ghoul]

Rizq is written by Allah, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't use a condom at all. Life and death are also written by Allah, but it doesn't mean you should cross a busy road without even looking at your sides.

 

[ziaulislam]

We really need to bring down population down from 180 Million to 100 Million mark
We need a 1 Child policy for 15 years period

Its a reasonable ask , by Government for 15 years , have 1 child only

If strick rules are imposed for 1 Child policy for 15 years it should technically shed away
25-30 Million off the population figure hopefully by 2030.

not doable, who will manage the old population later on, if you aim for 2 kids..you population will still decrease in long term as 20% people either dont marry, dont have kids or are infertile(5-15%).

so target should be agressive education, social securty and automaticallly your propulation will drop.

 

[Hyde]

The process should be simple

>1 Child
>If you seek 3 children visit an orphanage and adopt 2 children
>You will reduce the population , and also do good for afterlife by helping a orphan child

Also , an Adult should be the one providing Rizq to child not the other way around

I have seen it as a cultural thing people have no job , or steady work yet they get married and after that they have 3-4 kids lined up as well

All that contributes to is a low life standard for that family over long run and social issues with in the family due to lack of funding and resources

And PS : Mullas will also say they need to get married 3 times no .. really ... no ... mullas , keep your self in control 1 is enough ...you are already living of donations from mosque , please help us control population levels in Pakistan

I think my idea of imposing tax on third children is far more logical.

promote 2 children's, if you have third, just pay 20,000 or something in taxes. Have the fourth child, pay 50,000 rupees in taxes... 5th child, pay 100,000 in taxes. This will discourage poor people from having more n more babies

 

[VCheng]

I think my idea of imposing tax on third children is far more logical.

promote 2 children's, if you have third, just pay 20,000 or something in taxes. Have the fourth child, pay 50,000 rupees in taxes... 5th child, pay 100,000 in taxes. This will discourage poor people from having more n more babies

So how will the poor people be able to pay this tax? Will the State take away the children so conceived for non-payment?