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VIEW: Success lies in secularism —Dr Irfan Zafar

Muslims do not believe in Hinduism neither such agnostisism or your version of secularism where you can abuse Islam so what makes you justify forcing your belief of majority Muslims in India by imposing a flawed notion of secularism ?

Again I'll refrain from engaging in discussions about India or Hinduism as it's off topic and will invite trolling.
Secularism is exactly the opposite of what you say. It means not forcing your belief on someone and freedom of every individual to follow his own religion and beliefs. If you don't like the word secularism because of it's original meaning that's fine, but the concept is sound.
 
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It will come through people revolution all these corrupt politicians will be thrown out and this corrupt democratic system will end Interest based economy will be slowly finished leadership will be chosen with a different process than this corrupt system of elections all the laws will be made purely based on Quran and Sunnah their will be no political parties in Islam because it creates divide among Muslims

And the basis of doing exactly this in the Quran and Sunnah is? Can you quote me a prominent religious scholar - not a medical doctor or professor who has suddenly starting found "religion" that calls for overthrowing the current regime to establish an "Islamic society"

Infact, I can guarantee you that in the 1400 year history you will be hardpressed to find any Islamic scholar of repute. Infact, they actively opposed such type of "revolutions" while at the same time advocating non-violent public protests.
The only exception is the famous scholar Ibn Tamiyah who did give an ruling about fighting against the Mongol regime that had invaded and devastated Muslim lands all the way till present day Iraq and Syria. The Mongols had just converted to Islam after the devastation and despite that Ibn Tamiyah argued that it was valid to fight against them.

I won't go into the details of his fatwa but suffice to say that just last year, prominent scholars from around the world including India, KSA, Turkey Iran all gathered in Mardin, the same place where he gave the fatwa and recast the fatwa in today's light. The main idea being that the medieval concept of dar-ul harb and darul Islam no longer applies in countries were freedom of religion is allowed. These countries are now darul aman or darul ahd.

Here are a list of the speakers
Speakers | Mardin Conference

The new Mardin declaration is here
http://www.mardin-fatwa.com/attach/Mardin_Declaration_English.pdf

In short, other than Ibn Tamiyah, there is no important Islamic scholar who has justified or supported such "revolutions" to overthrow established political orders or a concept of theocracy where the clerics are the head of state.

Infact, this concept of revolution is more akin to other vanguard movements particularly from the Marixist-Leninist thought where the proletariat would join hands towards a revolution, smash the political order and establish a utopia where the proletariat would live in equality under a single party state. And the similar concept is with other fringe political religious nationalist movements as well.

Hence this "concept" is of a recent origin popular in a section of a younger frustrated generation who think that a easy quick fix "Revolution" will solve all their problems.
You already have two examples, Iran and Afghanistan where this has happened, and within Pakistan and Bangladesh at the lack of support to political Islamic parties. In fact, without the support of the military establishment, Islamic political parties would probably never have been in the ruling dispensation. This is not because people don't revere Islam as a faith. Polls show consistently that more than 90% of people in Bangladesh and Pakistan consider religion as very important to their personal lives. But they know that religion in politics where parties and people use it as a political tool is not just deviant and useless but also counter productive and regressive.
 
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if the european notions of 'secularism' are true secularism, then yes it has indeed failed.......

I personally like the Turkish model. Officially they are secular, but in PRACTICE --people openly practice their faith free of any problems. You see on one side of the road someone drinking a beer at a cafe; and down the road there are faithful people going to offer prayers. Nobody bothers eachother. Maybe deep down inside they may have different views and different ideologies but everyone lives and lets live. A Muslim majority country with some other sects as well.


whereas in europe, they simply just ban religious symbols --and it is usually Muslims the first one they have in their cross-hairs


as for india and secularism --well! They have a LONGGGGG way to go, so no need to even talk about india

The Turkish prime minister actually quoted Indian secularism along with the US UK as the form of secularism he wanted in Turkey. So if you prefer Turkey's secularism, then indirectly you want India's secularism as well.

The main point he was raising was that if in India and US, Muslim girls can go to schools and colleges in head scarves and if Muslim woman can be government officials and wear the head scarves, and still claim to be secular why can't they do so in Turkey?

And he had a very valid point. And I feel pride that he used the example of India among others to clarify the type of secularism he wanted to see in Turkey and that he did not want the French style which is completely anti-religion.
 
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Muslims do not believe in Hinduism neither such agnostisism or your version of secularism where you can abuse Islam so what makes you justify forcing your belief of majority Muslims in India by imposing a flawed notion of secularism ?

Is believing in Hinduism or any other religion and abuse of Islam?

That's where the whole Pakistani army and mullah narrative of secularism gets messed up!

Secular does not mean that the state will make people believe in some religion or the opposite thereof. It simply means that anyone can follow any faith in that country and it is State's business to protect the right of the citizen to follow his/her chosen faith.

And this secularism could be flawed at instances and there are situations where there still is friction between religions, but it definitely ensures that all religions prevail equally at most times. And guess what, practice makes perfect. The more it is practiced, the better it will get to ensuring religion as a private choice of a individual.

What do you think will the increasing practice of blasphemy law lead to? Perfection of some sort?
 
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if the european notions of 'secularism' are true secularism, then yes it has indeed failed.......

I personally like the Turkish model. Officially they are secular, but in PRACTICE --people openly practice their faith free of any problems. You see on one side of the road someone drinking a beer at a cafe; and down the road there are faithful people going to offer prayers. Nobody bothers eachother. Maybe deep down inside they may have different views and different ideologies but everyone lives and lets live. A Muslim majority country with some other sects as well.


whereas in europe, they simply just ban religious symbols --and it is usually Muslims the first one they have in their cross-hairs


as for india and secularism --well! They have a LONGGGGG way to go, so no need to even talk about india

Sir Turkey Model is even failing now slowly going back to Islam
 
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Sir Turkey Model is even failing now slowly going back to Islam

And having been visiting Istanbul, Izmir & Ankara few times every year since 2007, trust me, the extremism is also now worrying the common folk there. (Yes I visited Blue Mosque everytime I went to the Spice Bazaar and nothing happened to my religious choice - by the way, did you know that it was originally a church?)

Religion is about choice and freedom. And it should be for everyone. The day state makes religion its own business (like Pakistan has done), the degradation will follow. That is imminent. And the solution is NOT MORE religion, but LESS religion.


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Sir Turkey Model is even failing now slowly going back to Islam

You just do false propaganda to tell the world that Islam is the only religion God gave the humans, you where not there when God gave the religion, you just follow what is taught to you and you say that non belivers are kafirs and should be judged by the swards. Good going go your are your principles to the trash.
 
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And having been visiting Istanbul, Izmir & Ankara few times every year since 2007, trust me, the extremism is also now worrying the common folk there. (Yes I visited Blue Mosque everytime I went to the Spice Bazaar and nothing happened to my religious choice - by the way, did you know that it was originally a church?)

Religion is about choice and freedom. And it should be for everyone. The day state makes religion its own business (like Pakistan has done), the degradation will follow. That is imminent. And the solution is NOT MORE religion, but LESS religion.


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Islam is whole social economic and political system it is not just limited to Prayers Fasting and Hajj its a whole way of life which included how to run governments what laws to make how to run economy
 
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You just do false propaganda to tell the world that Islam is the only religion God gave the humans, you where not there when God gave the religion, you just follow what is taught to you and you say that non belivers are kafirs and should be judged by the swards. Good going go your are your principles to the trash.

Sir from this great Prinicpal we created the greatest civilization and ruled the world
 
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Islam is whole social economic and political system it is not just limited to Prayers Fasting and Hajj its a whole way of life which included how to run governments what laws to make how to run economy

and what has your Islamic nations contributed except a hand full or countries like Turker, Iran, India(which has a good number of muslim population)... UAE, S Arabia sits on good oil wealth that they think that education is just a joke for them, what have they contributed to the world of economics, any hardware, software, the answer is a big nothing.
 
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Is believing in Hinduism or any other religion and abuse of Islam?

Is believing In Islam tantamount to abuse of Hinduism or any other religion?


That's where the whole Pakistani army and mullah narrative of secularism gets messed up!

Secular does not mean that the state will make people believe in some religion or the opposite thereof. It simply means that anyone can follow any faith in that country and it is State's business to protect the right of the citizen to follow his/her chosen faith.

And this secularism could be flawed at instances and there are situations where there still is friction between religions, but it definitely ensures that all religions prevail equally at most times. And guess what, practice makes perfect. The more it is practiced, the better it will get to ensuring religion as a private choice of a individual.

What do you think will the increasing practice of blasphemy law lead to? Perfection of some sort?

The kind of secularism with topping of Hinduism in India is not at all secularism in the first place.
 
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Ashok

You just don't get it -- Islam has not been implemented yet - when it is implemented (read fully weaponized) then you'll see the contribution
 
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Sir from this great Prinicpal we created the greatest civilization and ruled the world

you ruled the world because you were good at killing and anihalating the people on your path, you never had the mentality to co-exist. if you ruled the world with that principles, where did they go in the last 400 years when the Europeans ruled the world. Compared to your forefathers, Eropeans were more civilized when it came to religious preachings, they converted people with love, bread and butter like Mother Teresa, etc where as your forefathers imposed Islam on us by their swords.
 
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