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Vietnam vice minister apologizes to Japan for “$2 Billion loan” gaffe

I'm a "noob" and you'll be "giving people like me a hard time."? And you "dare" me? I won't open a new thread unless you double dare me. But be careful, as I may preemptively double-dog-dare you back. (In the world of dares, that's the penultimate dare). Seriously, how old are you? :lol:

^^^ LOL this only reinforces what I've said earlier about you using kiddies reply and can't post anything of substance.

Your role here will forever be a cheer-leader to more intellectual Chinese members and can only post primary school kids insults against people that you don't like.

This will be my last reply to you here since you're being off-topic. If you insist in debating me, then open a new thread and ask me in.
 
It may benefit some of the rich in that country, however, it does trickle down to the common citizen. Yes, you're right that forms of corruption will happen, what do you expect us (West + Japan + China) to do? Install new governments? Even then, who's to say that the new government won't be corrupt?

I believe that anti-corruption drive will eventually manifest as the nation improves its quality of life. Let's take for example China as a case study basis. During the 1980s till early 2000s, China had a ubiquitous corruption problem, but overall, China as a state improved. The CPC lifted over 700 million Chinese out of poverty through the help of western + Japanese investments , coupled with Chinese ingenuity and hard work / sacrifice. It was a collective ambition and goal.

And now that China is becoming an economic power, its government is now implementing and robust anti-corruption drives throughout China and abroad, why even extraditing corrupt officials who have gone abroad. As you can see, it takes time and over period of developmental stages.

Our Vietnamese friends should be considerate of this organizational and developmental REALITY.


Thats why i said the first people these countries should blame is of course their own government officials first and foremost, then in second place the foreign powers giving the 'aid':D China developed(more like its developing) due to first and foremost the Chinese people's own hard work,dedication, and government vision/determination to catch up with its peers in the region/world after it opened up and realised it was lagging way way behind western/east Asian neighbours i.e Japan and south Korea. China didnt developed because of the 'help' of Western/Japanese aid/investments or whatever. Its from their people itself and their countrymen overseas: Hong Kong, Taiwan, etc. The west/Japan just came in later to exploit the cheap labour and enrich their already rich multinational companies even more(same reason they want to soon move to the next labour exploitable poor country in the region like India, Vietnam ,Laos, Cambodia, Indonesia etc). Note that our companies did bribed alot of officials in China as well to get contracts etc though this decreased with time as they gained awareness.

However even more so, Chinas case is different since it is a civilization state, and its government had an ambition/determination to catch up/suceed/take it rightful place among top nations in the world. So despite engaging in corruption as well, they still knew they had to work hard to improve themselves and the country as a whole(so the leaders still have that vision/determination/planning to succeed, unlike other poor/developing countries). Which is why i find the country really distinct from others, since its corrupt as well, but still by far the most advanced developing country on earth, with a government that when it sets targets its almost always acheives it and is determined. This is peculiar and explanable due to the fact that the government part/share in the country's economy and its ability to implement things quickly.

So unlike many other developing countries, in China, it is the government that allocates resources and directly or indirectly commands a large proportion of national assets and income. This has enabled China to industrialize and move at a much faster pace than other countries. So western/Japanese foreign 'help' were not out to help the country developed per se(why would we in the first place?lol) to what the country growth into what it is today. The governments focus on light industry / manufacturing geared towards exports was also a reason(though they learned from former asian tigers south Korea, Japan, Taiwan models as well). At the same time, investing in the necessary infrastructure (factories, light equipment, roads, ships and trains to get all the goods transported to the foreign consumers, and so on) will had plenty of positive benefits as well. So this helped Foreign investment and technology coming flowing in, not because these investors wanted to 'help' the chinese, NO. But because they saw(and still seem to see.lol) that it will be a good place to make a good/better Return on investment than other places/country/out there.
Secondly the Chinese also invested alot in Education and opened to world trade. and last but not least their Capital accumulation / high savings rates . Since the country could accumulate alot of capital and labor and giving its size and the level of savings and labor available for investment, it gave more space/opportunity for the government to invest in productive sectors of the country's economy and boost growth. etc there are several other factors which i cant go through all of them on here. But surely It had nothing to do with 'aid' man, far from it. :disagree:
 
Thats why i said the first people these countries should blame is of course their own government officials first and foremost, then in second place the foreign powers giving the 'aid':D China developed(more like its developing) due to first and foremost the Chinese people's own hard work,dedication, and government vision/determination to catch up with its peers in the region/world after it opened up and realised it was lagging way way behind western/east Asian neighbours i.e Japan and south Korea. China didnt developed because of the 'help' of Western/Japanese aid/investments or whatever. Its from their people itself and their countrymen overseas: Hong Kong, Taiwan, etc. The west/Japan just came in later to exploit the cheap labour and enrich their already rich multinational companies even more(same reason they want to soon move to the next labour exploitable poor country in the region like India, Vietnam ,Laos, Cambodia, Indonesia etc). Note that our companies did bribed alot of officials in China as well to get contracts etc though this decreased with time as they gained awareness.

However even more so, Chinas case is different since it is a civilization state, and its government had an ambition/determination to catch up/suceed/take it rightful place among top nations in the world. So despite engaging in corruption as well, they still knew they had to work hard to improve themselves and the country as a whole(so the leaders still have that vision/determination/planning to succeed, unlike other poor/developing countries). Which is why i find the country really distinct from others, since its corrupt as well, but still by far the most advanced developing country on earth, with a government that when it sets targets its almost always acheives it and is determined. This is peculiar and explanable due to the fact that the government part/share in the country's economy and its ability to implement things quickly.

So unlike many other developing countries, in China, it is the government that allocates resources and directly or indirectly commands a large proportion of national assets and income. This has enabled China to industrialize and move at a much faster pace than other countries. So western/Japanese foreign 'help' were not out to help the country developed per se(why would we in the first place?lol) to what the country growth into what it is today. The governments focus on light industry / manufacturing geared towards exports was also a reason(though they learned from former asian tigers south Korea, Japan, Taiwan models as well). At the same time, investing in the necessary infrastructure (factories, light equipment, roads, ships and trains to get all the goods transported to the foreign consumers, and so on) will had plenty of positive benefits as well. So this helped Foreign investment and technology coming flowing in, not because these investors wanted to 'help' the chinese, NO. But because they saw(and still seem to see.lol) that it will be a good place to make a good/better Return on investment than other places/country/out there.
Secondly the Chinese also invested alot in Education and opened to world trade. and last but not least their Capital accumulation / high savings rates . Since the country could accumulate alot of capital and labor and giving its size and the level of savings and labor available for investment, it gave more space/opportunity for the government to invest in productive sectors of the country's economy and boost growth. etc there are several other factors which i cant go through all of them on here. But surely It had nothing to do with 'aid' man, far from it. :disagree:

I see that you are also a disciple of William Easterly. Reading The Elusive Quest For Growth changed my outlook on aid permanently. Less aid, more clean government and focus on productivity improvement and trade.

@Nihonjin1051 TPP, cough, cough.
 
It is a tragedy... Aid to Africa and other poor developing countries was/is a scam which benefits the giver more than people, by design but also in practice. The reasons for this are myriad - donor governments tie aid to juicy contracts for their home companies, aid is sometimes tied to loans and contributions whereby the aid given is substantially less than the amount to be repaid which in fact may be more than enough to cater for the projects in the first place; and finally the rampant corruption of the the beneficiary governments who buy PCs for $10,000, as an example.
If i was African or Vietnamese/cambodian or any other small poor developing country leader out there and if I had my way, i will stop all aid to my country because it does not benefit 99% of the country poor common citizens and is inordinately tied to what is beneficial to the donor countries and government, at the same time buying them inordinate influence in the beneficiary countries...:big_boss:
 
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Thats why i said the first people these countries should blame is of course their own government officials first and foremost, then in second place the foreign powers giving the 'aid':D China developed(more like its developing) due to first and foremost the Chinese people's own hard work,dedication, and government vision/determination to catch up with its peers in the region/world after it opened up and realised it was lagging way way behind western/east Asian neighbours i.e Japan and south Korea. China didnt developed because of the 'help' of Western/Japanese aid/investments or whatever. Its from their people itself and their countrymen overseas: Hong Kong, Taiwan, etc. The west/Japan just came in later to exploit the cheap labour and enrich their already rich multinational companies even more(same reason they want to soon move to the next labour exploitable poor country in the region like India, Vietnam ,Laos, Cambodia, Indonesia etc). Note that our companies did bribed alot of officials in China as well to get contracts etc though this decreased with time as they gained awareness.

However even more so, Chinas case is different since it is a civilization state, and its government had an ambition/determination to catch up/suceed/take it rightful place among top nations in the world. So despite engaging in corruption as well, they still knew they had to work hard to improve themselves and the country as a whole(so the leaders still have that vision/determination/planning to succeed, unlike other poor/developing countries). Which is why i find the country really distinct from others, since its corrupt as well, but still by far the most advanced developing country on earth, with a government that when it sets targets its almost always acheives it and is determined. This is peculiar and explanable due to the fact that the government part/share in the country's economy and its ability to implement things quickly.

So unlike many other developing countries, in China, it is the government that allocates resources and directly or indirectly commands a large proportion of national assets and income. This has enabled China to industrialize and move at a much faster pace than other countries. So western/Japanese foreign 'help' were not out to help the country developed per se(why would we in the first place?lol) to what the country growth into what it is today. The governments focus on light industry / manufacturing geared towards exports was also a reason(though they learned from former asian tigers south Korea, Japan, Taiwan models as well). At the same time, investing in the necessary infrastructure (factories, light equipment, roads, ships and trains to get all the goods transported to the foreign consumers, and so on) will had plenty of positive benefits as well. So this helped Foreign investment and technology coming flowing in, not because these investors wanted to 'help' the chinese, NO. But because they saw(and still seem to see.lol) that it will be a good place to make a good/better Return on investment than other places/country/out there.
Secondly the Chinese also invested alot in Education and opened to world trade. and last but not least their Capital accumulation / high savings rates . Since the country could accumulate alot of capital and labor and giving its size and the level of savings and labor available for investment, it gave more space/opportunity for the government to invest in productive sectors of the country's economy and boost growth. etc there are several other factors which i cant go through all of them on here. But surely It had nothing to do with 'aid' man, far from it. :disagree:

It was the pro-active policy of the late Chinese leader 鄧小平 ( Deng Xiaoping), and his vision of opening China to the outside world. The Leadership of China was hollistic in its ambition, seeing that the failure of the Soviet Union was its antithetic stance on capitalism, Deng viewed capitalism and opening to the west as the answer to China's under-development. The 1978 Treaty of Peace and Friendship between Japan and the People's Republic of China opened the doors of Japanese investments into China, the floodgates of investment that trickled down through ever corner of Chinese society. Be in in manufacturing, education, real estate, shipping, -- all of these were touched upon by Japan. Hundreds and Hundreds of Billions of Dollars were invested from Japan to China. And I like to think that Japan was instrumental to the eventual realization of China's economic rise. Afterall, China and Japan's bilateral trade is the greatest in the Asian region, which to this day accounts up to $320 Billion per annum.

Anyways, here's the beauty of this economic partnership seen in China: ;)
Prc1952-2005gdp[1].gif
 
It is a tragedy... Aid to Africa and other poor developing countries was/is a scam which benefits the giver more than people, by design but also in practice. The reasons for this are myriad - donor governments tie aid to juicy contracts for their home companies, aid is sometimes tied to loans and contributions whereby the aid given is substantially less than the amount to be repaid which in fact may be more than enough to cater for the projects in the first place; and finally the rampant corruption of the the beneficiary governments who buy PCs for $10,000, as an example.
If i was African or Vietnamese/cambodian or any other small poor developing country leader out there and if I had my way, i will stop all aid to Africa because it does not benefit 99% of Africans and is inordinately tied to what is beneficial to the donor countries and government, at the same time buying them inordinate influence in the beneficiary countries...:big_boss:

Then pray may I ask what you think should be done to help develop these developing third world nations, ergo, nations in Africa, Asia, Latin America et al ?
 
Japanese ODA was a ball-and-chains around Chinese development whose damage has only started to be repaired after 2005 or so. The thing about Japanese ODA is that you can only use it to hire Japanese contractors - it is essentially the government of the recipient subsidizing that of Japan.

Foreign investment itself was never more than a fraction of Chinese GDP and out of foreign investment, most was from Hong Kong (before it returned). Almost none of the foreign investment resulted in significant technology transfer and indeed, most of it has crippled the affected sectors. Just look at automobiles, which has significant foreign investment, with telecom hardware, which has very little. Automobiles are still far behind the rest of the world while telecom hardware is already world class and only getting better. All non-emergency aid is a scam designed to keep pliable politicians in power and to build up countries as punching bags, ODA is no different.
 
Stop trying to defend the Japanese govt's action. The Vietnamese like @NiceGuy are not stupid. They know what's going on. @mike2000 have explained it really well.

Your "aid" mechanism is bad for VN. It doesn't promote development efficiency, effective governance nor does it promote good competition. Japanese sub-contractors will always be favoured to win big projects, no matter how bad they are or if there are other better sub-contractors that can provide a better service. This also promote corruption, no matter how much the Japanese govt promise to solve it. It is all cheap talk.
Yeah, we r not kids, we know clearly what going on wt ODA 'aid', but we just keep quiet and we will teach that dirty JP Govt. when we have a chance.

Black Flag said:
Lastly, it is not truly an "aid" since the Vietnamese people will have to pay it all back + interest.

Lastly to all the Vietnamese members: @Nihonjin1051 has slipped his tongue (Freudian slip) and have called your Vietnamese people as "Clods". The meaning of clods is a piece of mud that sticks under your shoes. It is now a word used to insult people, especially people that you look down on.
No, we dont pay back, just like we didnt back back all debt to Soviet, JP also know that. But their goal is to keep VN in poor wt corrupted Govt. so that they can call us 'Clods'. ODA is just small 'fee' for their goal

We all know Chinese-SK-JPese believe that we (VN and other native South East Asia) r lower race than them, even when they r under US's control and dont have a real independence like VN.
 
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Vietnam, Japan discuss anti-corruption in ODA-funded projects

: 06/25/2014 17:01 GMT + 7

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Vietnamese and Japanese officials met in Hanoi on Tuesday to discuss measures to combat corruption related to Vietnam’s projects funded by Japan’s official development assistance (ODA).

The meeting was held by the Vietnamese Ministry of Planning and Investment to seek ways to prevent and fight corruption in such projects.

Vietnamese Deputy Minister of Planning and Investment, Nguyen Chi Dung and Charge d'affaires of the Japanese Embassy in Vietnam, Hideo Suzuki co-chaired the meeting.

The event occurred amid an allegation that Japan Transportation Consultants, Inc. (JTC) paid bribes worth over US$785,000 in Vietnam to win an order for a Japanese ODA-funded project.

The alleged graft was uncovered when Japan’s Yomiuri Shimbun newspaper reported in March that Tamio Kakinuma, president of JTC, had admitted accusations that the firm paid ¥80 million (over $785,000) in bribes in return for an ODA project order worth ¥4.2 billion (over $41.2 million) in Vietnam.

The newspaper also said JTC allegedly bribed civil servants in Vietnam, Indonesia, and Uzbekistan with ¥130 million (over $1.27 million) from February 2008 to February of this year in order to receive orders for five Japanese ODA-funded projects in these countries.

At yesterday’ meeting, Deputy Minister Dung recognized that the reported bribery is a serious case, affecting Japanese ODA-funded projects in the Southeast Asian country.

He affirmed that the Vietnamese government is determined to fight corruption in all projects using ODA from other countries, including Japan.

Meanwhile, Hideo Suzuki said that the case is a regretful incident in the relation between the two countries and that he wanted to be updated on the results of the investigation from the Vietnamese side.

The official also suggested that Vietnam and Japan should continue cooperate to combat graft and avoid the recurrence of such a scandal in the future.

In a notice released at the end of the meeting, the ministry affirmed that the Vietnamese side has unveiled the results of the investigation into those projects related to JTC and the state-owned Vietnam Railways Corporation.

The two sides have discussed measures to prevent similar cases and will take such measures in the future, according to the document.

In early May, six Vietnamese railway officials were arrested for their involvement in the alleged bribery case.

Vietnam, Japan discuss anti-corruption in ODA-funded projects
 
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Gratitude is an alien concept to many Vietnamese people. This is especially evident during the Vietnam war where the South Vietnamese constantly ripped off the Americans fighting on their behalf while the North Vietnamese were ingrates and completely backstabbed their Chinese allies once the war was over. With that being said, Japan can probably find better places to spend its money than Vietnam because they view you as someone asking to be swindled out of money.

don't lie kid, Chinese sold off us to US and stopped help from 1968 to shake hands with US in Peking 1972. Don't forget that China backed Khmer Rouge to betray us and attacked Vietnam after 1975. and herselves China PLA invaded in to Vietnam 1979.
 
I see that you are also a disciple of William Easterly. Reading The Elusive Quest For Growth changed my outlook on aid permanently. Less aid, more clean government and focus on productivity improvement and trade.

@Nihonjin1051 TPP, cough, cough.
As Karl Marx said : 'Poor and oppressed countries need Aid, but it should come from friendly countries' . Friendly countries to VN are Russia-India-France and maybe US if they truly need VN to contain China.

Strong VN will be the big trouble for China-JP, just like we will beat JP easily on Agriculture and fishing products when we join TPP.
 
No, we dont pay back, just like we didnt back back all debt to Soviet, .

we have been paid back all debt in Ruble, bro, in 1999, when Russia currency is in crisis and was devaluated. The ruble lost 70% of its value against the U.S. dollar in the six months following this financial crisis. :pop:
 
Yeah, JP-China just like US-France to Congo, they like a weak VN to exploit the poor people, but unlucky for them is that Russia wants a Strong VietNam like during Cold war to contain China , , US also want a strong VN to contain China for them ,too.

ODA may keep flowing to some stupid projects like Long Thanh air port, bad quality high way,bridge etc , but VN politics r changing, people have more right to criticize the leaders who dont work well through confident vote. So I think its time for normal JPese realise that their Govt. is play dirty trick to poor VNese by wasting their tax on corrupted Vn officials.

Here is the result of confident vote , juts released this morning. Nguyen Thi Kim Tien, Minister of Health - Pham Vu Luan, Minister of Education and Training r among the worst leaders . So, they must improve VN health and education if they dont wanna be sacked.
Results of parliamentary confidence vote on Vietnam's top leadership | Politics | Thanh Nien Daily
you did have an opinion, not always be lunatic as I thought you before.
 
Vietnam, Japan discuss anti-corruption in ODA-funded projects

: 06/25/2014 17:01 GMT + 7

View attachment 152517

Vietnamese and Japanese officials met in Hanoi on Tuesday to discuss measures to combat corruption related to Vietnam’s projects funded by Japan’s official development assistance (ODA).

The meeting was held by the Vietnamese Ministry of Planning and Investment to seek ways to prevent and fight corruption in such projects.

Vietnamese Deputy Minister of Planning and Investment, Nguyen Chi Dung and Charge d'affaires of the Japanese Embassy in Vietnam, Hideo Suzuki co-chaired the meeting.

The event occurred amid an allegation that Japan Transportation Consultants, Inc. (JTC) paid bribes worth over US$785,000 in Vietnam to win an order for a Japanese ODA-funded project.

The alleged graft was uncovered when Japan’s Yomiuri Shimbun newspaper reported in March that Tamio Kakinuma, president of JTC, had admitted accusations that the firm paid ¥80 million (over $785,000) in bribes in return for an ODA project order worth ¥4.2 billion (over $41.2 million) in Vietnam.

The newspaper also said JTC allegedly bribed civil servants in Vietnam, Indonesia, and Uzbekistan with ¥130 million (over $1.27 million) from February 2008 to February of this year in order to receive orders for five Japanese ODA-funded projects in these countries.

At yesterday’ meeting, Deputy Minister Dung recognized that the reported bribery is a serious case, affecting Japanese ODA-funded projects in the Southeast Asian country.

He affirmed that the Vietnamese government is determined to fight corruption in all projects using ODA from other countries, including Japan.

Meanwhile, Hideo Suzuki said that the case is a regretful incident in the relation between the two countries and that he wanted to be updated on the results of the investigation from the Vietnamese side.

The official also suggested that Vietnam and Japan should continue cooperate to combat graft and avoid the recurrence of such a scandal in the future.

In a notice released at the end of the meeting, the ministry affirmed that the Vietnamese side has unveiled the results of the investigation into those projects related to JTC and the state-owned Vietnam Railways Corporation.

The two sides have discussed measures to prevent similar cases and will take such measures in the future, according to the document.

In early May, six Vietnamese railway officials were arrested for their involvement in the alleged bribery case.

Vietnam, Japan discuss anti-corruption in ODA-funded projects


Good to see this. My faith in Vietnam has been restored.
 
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