Vietnam vice minister apologizes to Japan for “$2 Billion loan” gaffe

[NiceGuy]

What just amazes me is how some members said the following:

to quote @NiceGuy, "And why JP keep sending money ?? Juts like China Govt. , they want to maintain weak VietNam nation, so we can not keep expanding and taking control of the whole ASEAN region bcz of corruption problem. Strong Vn simply is too bad and bring lots of trouble for both China-JP."

How does one really respond to that? Only in one's wildest dreams did i expect something like this. He even went on to say in another post that Japan's ODA to Vietnam is hurting "poor average Vietnamese". Oh I'm sorry, i guess the thousands of Vietnamese whom are given jobs in the construction of Japanese projects in Vietnam are ignored. Or the $5 billion which Japan gave to Vietnam in 2012, 2013, respectively is just ignored.

Sorry, but it is the JAPANESE TAX PAYER that is paying for these godamned ODA funds we give to developing nations. That should at least be respected, honored by some Vietnamese members here. Instead of being ungrateful clods!

Afterall, its OUR money going into your country. As if Vietnam invests anything to Japan....

U support your dirty Govt to earn money on our poor people, then u r dirty like ur Govt , too. U should know the Truth that many VNese dislike u bcz of ur ODA keep our corrupted Govt. alive for so long time. Our politics r changing now, when we have a change, we will prosecute all of your dirty ODA low quality projects.

Btw: playing dirty trick to our corrupted Govt. is very dangerous game coz they r very greedy, if JP stop sending ODA to make them get richer, they may support Russia to make more trouble to u in Northern territories until u cant bear anymore and have to send ODA to VN again.

 

[William Hung]

LOOOL Our governments in the West/U.S together with our foreign aid exploitation tools i.e IMF/World Bank have also been saying the same thing to the African countries they have dupe for decades, they are asking for a Thank You/gratitude in return as well.
I already told you no country 'aids' another for free bro(without getting some much more in return) not even 'the world's most powerful democracy' U.S, much less Japan. Its like when i hear some of my country people say China should be grateful to us in the west/U.S for investing in/making their country prosperous/wealthy, as if we were angels/Jesus(thats if you arer christian though.lol) to aid countries for free. Only naive people say that man.So please chill on that my good friend.

Mike, thanks for your insight. Your (and @NiceGuy) explanation makes sense to me. I can see how NiceGuy can be mad at the Japanese "aid". It's like someone buying a house for him, as a surprise "gift" for his family without asking him for his consent. Unfortunately for him, he has to pay a full mortgage for that "gift" LOL. Even worse, the gifted house is sub-par standard and will cost him more in the long run, putting him more in debt. While all this time, it was the real estate agent and previous owner of the house that benefitted from the deal.

It's especially arrogant for the "aid" donor to go on and scold people like NiceGuy for not showing their proper gratitude. It reminds me of this movie scene of a slave owner scolding his runaway slave:

@ 1.12 min

Slave owner:

-When a master give you something, you take it!!
-I've given you a name... and it's a very nice name.
-It's "Toby", and it's going to stay with you until the day you die!!!
-So tell me boy, what is your name?? *whips*

Sorry, but it is the JAPANESE TAX PAYER that is paying for these godamned ODA funds we give to developing nations. That should at least be respected, honored by some Vietnamese members here. Instead of being ungrateful clods!

Afterall, its OUR money going into your country. As if Vietnam invests anything to Japan....

You're beginning to sound like a colonialist, or even a slave owner. Reading your comments, I can't help but to picture you taking out a whip ready to scold NiceGuy for his "ingratitude."

Also, I'm glad that you've finally found a person like @AgentOrange who you could agree with. He is one of the most anti-Viet on this forum. So you agreeing with him will speak volumes about your attitude towards the Viet members here. lol

 

[mike2000]

I try, I try. I'll be here all week. Thank you!

loool then you better make sure, you come with much more jokes like this one. Because i like having a good laugh , after a conversation. Thats Mike for you.

On topic, Everything i pointed out here are mere facts, its not something i invented or came out with out of nowhere. I did study international relations and have some knowledge of economics as well, coupled with the fact that i love travelling/have travelled alot, with lots of friends from different countries/regions. So all this has giving me a better understand of how the world works. Not evrything that you see/hear by politicians/officials or even our mainsteam Media is truth. There are lots of back deals/dirty tricks that goes on behind the scenes. I have travelled to Africa(together with my wife) extensively and its a continent i have fallen in love with, given its unparallel beauty/landscape and people. Its such a shame that Africa known as the cradle of humanity, is still the poorest continent in the world, and has been exploited by our governments for decades/centuries to this day. This is atrocious. Now new powers are also coming into the frame as well. This should make Africans/Vietnamese and other poor countries realise that no power will come help you develop yourselves but you. Change must always come from within. Waiting for Foreign 'aid' to develop your country is all but laughable to be honest. Noccoutnry in world history has ever developed through 'aid' and never will. Its tthrough the peoples work,dedication,transparency, education,accountability,good governance etc not 'aid'.

Hopefully Africa and other poor developing countries will learn this. I pray to see that day(if im still alive by then.lol).

 

[Aepsilons]

U support your dirty Govt to earn money on our poor people, then u r dirty like ur Govt , too. U should know the Truth that many VNese dislike u bcz of ur ODA keep our corrupted Govt. alive for so long time. Our politics r changing now, when we have the change, we will prosecute all of your dirty ODA low quality projects.

Vtw: playing dirty trick to our corrupted Govt. is very dangerous game coz they r very greedy, if JP stop sending ODA to make them get richer, they may support Russia to make more trouble to u in Northern territories until u cant bear anymore and have to send ODA to VN again.

My dirty government? lol. You talk too loud, my Vietnamese friend. Be humble

 

[Aepsilons]

loool then you better make sure, you come with much more jokes like this one. Because i like having a good laugh , after a conversation. Thats Mike for you.

On topic, Everything i pointed out here are mere facts, its not something i invented or came out with out of nowhere. I did study international relations and have some knowledge of economics as well, coupled with the fact that i love travelling/have travelled alot, with lots of friends from different countries/regions. So all this has giving me a better understand of how the world works. Not evrything that you see/hear by politicians/officials or even our mainsteam Media is truth. There are lots of back deals/dirty tricks that goes on behind the scenes. I have travelled to Africa(together with my wife) extensively and its a continent i have fallen in love with, given its unparallel beauty/landscape and people. Its such a shame that Africa known as the cradle of humanity, is still the poorest continent in the world, and has been exploited by our governments for decades/centuries to this day. This is atrocious. Now new powers are also coming into the frame as well. This should make Africans/Vietnamese and other poor countries realise that no power will come help you develop yourselves but you. Change must always come from within. Waiting for Foreign 'aid' to develop your country is all but laughable to be honest. Noccoutnry in world history has ever developed through 'aid' and never will. Its tthrough the peoples work,dedication,transparency, education,accountability,good governance etc not 'aid'.

Hopefully Africa and other poor developing countries will learn this. I pray to see that day(if im still alive by then.lol).

Mike, I'd like to re-orient your vantage point. I think the problem with some African countries and their leaders is the culture of corruption and reprobate attitude of the people. That is something they (Africans) can't blame on the "white man".

 

[mike2000]

We are training 10,000 Vietnamese engineers as we speak, physicians and nurses from asean member states. As for student visas we provide a number to partners in the middle east, north america, europe and in asia.

Given, Japan can afford to send large amounts of people to developing regions like Africa due to China's shear size. With a population of over 1.4 billion, sending 1 million overseas Chinese in say Africa is doable for them. 1 million is nothing for China. But say compare countries like Britain , which has a population of only 60 million, or France which has a population of around 63 million, or Japan which has a population of only 128 million, sending 1 million abroad is massive. That's too much of a population strain. Don't you agree?

Its not a matter of size/population im talking about man. It's mutually benefitial trade/business. Aid has never aided a country EVER. We tried/did that with Africa for far longer than Japan even started thinking of 'aids' , and it has been a total failure which everybody knows/can see for himself. Aid just helps the corrupt officals in power and those government officials who cut the deal with the foreign power/country. Vietnams case(just like Africa) is no exception.So it helps the super rich gets hyper rich and the very poor get super poor, since not only them but their children as well have to pay for this debt repayments for years/generations to come, even though they never saw any benefits of it. Its a vicious cycle man.

 

[Aepsilons]

Its not a matter of size/population im talking about man. It's mutually benefitial trade/business. Aid has never aided a country EVER. We tried/did that with Africa for far longer than Japan even started thinking of 'aids' , and it has been a total failure which everybody knows/can see for himself. Aid just helps the corrupt officals in power and those government officials who cut the deal with the foreign power/country. Vietnams case(just like Africa) is no exception.So it helps the super rich gets hyper rich and the very poor get super poor, since not only them but their children as well have to pay for this debt repayments for years/generations to come, even though they never saw any benefits of it. Its a vicious cycle man.

It may benefit some of the rich in that country, however, it does trickle down to the common citizen. Yes, you're right that forms of corruption will happen, what do you expect us (West + Japan + China) to do? Install new governments? Even then, who's to say that the new government won't be corrupt?

I believe that anti-corruption drive will eventually manifest as the nation improves its quality of life. Let's take for example China as a case study basis. During the 1980s till early 2000s, China had a ubiquitous corruption problem, but overall, China as a state improved. The CPC lifted over 700 million Chinese out of poverty through the help of western + Japanese investments , coupled with Chinese ingenuity and hard work / sacrifice. It was a collective ambition and goal.

And now that China is becoming an economic power, its government is now implementing and robust anti-corruption drives throughout China and abroad, why even extraditing corrupt officials who have gone abroad. As you can see, it takes time and over period of developmental stages.

Our Vietnamese friends should be considerate of this organizational and developmental REALITY.

 

[AgentOrange]

Also, I'm glad that you've finally found a person like @AgentOrange who you could agree with. He is one of the most anti-Viet on this forum. So you agreeing with him will speak volumes about your attitude towards the Viet members here. lol

There would be more credibility to your sanctimonious whining about me if you displayed an equal "outrage" against the anti-Chinese attitude displayed by your Viet brethren. Alas, as is often typical of a hypocrite, your offended sensibilities only extend in one direction. Cry more.

 

[William Hung]

It may benefit some of the rich in that country, however, it does trickle down to the common citizen. Yes, you're right that forms of corruption will happen, what do you expect us (West + Japan + China) to do? Install new governments? Even then, who's to say that the new government won't be corrupt?

I believe that anti-corruption drive will eventually manifest as the nation improves its quality of life. Let's take for example China as a case study basis. During the 1980s till early 2000s, China had a ubiquitous corruption problem, but overall, China as a state improved. The CPC lifted over 700 million Chinese out of poverty through the help of western + Japanese investments , coupled with Chinese ingenuity and hard work / sacrifice. It was a collective ambition and goal.

And now that China is becoming an economic power, its government is now implementing and robust anti-corruption drives throughout China and abroad, why even extraditing corrupt officials who have gone abroad. As you can see, it takes time and over period of developmental stages.

Our Vietnamese friends should be considerate of this organizational and developmental REALITY.

Stop trying to defend the Japanese govt's action. The Vietnamese like @NiceGuy are not stupid. They know what's going on. @mike2000 have explained it really well.

Your "aid" mechanism is bad for VN. It doesn't promote development efficiency, effective governance nor does it promote good competition. Japanese sub-contractors will always be favoured to win big projects, no matter how bad they are or if there are other better sub-contractors that can provide a better service. This also promote corruption, no matter how much the Japanese govt promise to solve it. It is all cheap talk.

Lastly, it is not truly an "aid" since the Vietnamese people will have to pay it all back + interest.

Lastly to all the Vietnamese members: @Nihonjin1051 has slipped his tongue (Freudian slip) and have called your Vietnamese people as "Clods". The meaning of clods is a piece of mud that sticks under your shoes. It is now a word used to insult people, especially people that you look down on.

 

[AgentOrange]

It may benefit some of the rich in that country, however, it does trickle down to the common citizen. Yes, you're right that forms of corruption will happen, what do you expect us (West + Japan + China) to do? Install new governments? Even then, who's to say that the new government won't be corrupt?

I believe that anti-corruption drive will eventually manifest as the nation improves its quality of life. Let's take for example China as a case study basis. During the 1980s till early 2000s, China had a ubiquitous corruption problem, but overall, China as a state improved. The CPC lifted over 700 million Chinese out of poverty through the help of western + Japanese investments , coupled with Chinese ingenuity and hard work / sacrifice. It was a collective ambition and goal.

And now that China is becoming an economic power, its government is now implementing and robust anti-corruption drives throughout China and abroad, why even extraditing corrupt officials who have gone abroad. As you can see, it takes time and over period of developmental stages.

Our Vietnamese friends should be considerate of this organizational and developmental REALITY.

I'd like to also point out that no one is *forcing* the Viets to accept Japanese developmental aid. It's not like Japan is holding a gun, literally or figuratively, to Vietnam's head. An apt analogy would be the morbidly obese binge eater blaming a restaurant for making him fat. It's certainly not the fault of foreign aid that Vietnam is mired in poverty, utterly corrupt and incompetent, and unable to industrialize.

Also, I find it utterly hilarious that NiceGuy is calling the Japanese government "dirty." Japan's government is many things but they're far from being "dirty", especially compared to Vietnam which ranks worse on the Transparency International corruption scale than either China or Japan.

 

[AgentOrange]

Lastly to all the Vietnamese members: @Nihonjin1051 has slipped his tongue (Freudian slip) and have called your Vietnamese people as "Clods". The meaning of clods is a piece of mud that sticks under your shoes. It is now a word used to insult people, especially people that you look down on.

It must be hard living life, constantly looking for something to be offended over. "Clod"? Really? You must be real fun at parties.

 

[Aepsilons]

I'd like to also point out that no one is *forcing* the Viets to accept Japanese developmental aid. It's not like Japan is holding a gun, literally or figuratively, to Vietnam's head. An apt analogy would be the morbidly obese binge eater blaming a restaurant for making him fat. It's certainly not the fault of foreign aid that Vietnam is mired in poverty, utterly corrupt and incompetent, and unable to industrialize.

Also, I find it utterly hilarious that NiceGuy is calling the Japanese government "dirty." Japan's government is many things but they're far from being "dirty", especially compared to Vietnam which ranks worse on the Transparency International corruption scale than either China or Japan.

The 2014 Oil Rig debacle had resulted in over 2 billion dollars worth in damages to foreign investors, interesting to note that many of the businesses that were destroyed weren't even Chinese owned. This is a security issue for all investors, and since Japan is the largest investor in Vietnam, representing over 30% of all FDI into the country, this should be seen as a security issue for us.

I do hope that the Vietnamese Government solve issue of mob threats, and enforce security on the multi-billion dollar businesses Japan has built in Vietnam, which employs hundreds of thousands of Vietnamese , providing necessary source of sustenance to their families.

At the same time, perhaps it is time for Japan to invest in more stable nations in ASEAN. I for one am in favor of increasing feasibility studies for increased cooperation with say the Philippines, Indonesia, and Thailand. Why even Myanmar, Laos and Cambodia should be considered. In the event that we have to scale back cooperation with Vietnam.

 

[William Hung]

There would be more credibility to your sanctimonious whining about me if you displayed an equal "outrage" against the anti-Chinese attitude displayed by your Viet brethren. Alas, as is often typical of a hypocrite, your offended sensibilities only extend in one direction. Cry more.

I have defended some Chinese people here more than you cheer-leaders have. And I used proper arguments and debates, not just one-liners elementary school kids insults like you kids always use. Btw, most of my "thanks" and "thumps up" are from Chinese members LOL. But of course you don't know because you are a noob. Know your place kiddo.

Now I'm pro- Viet and will be giving people like you a hard time. hohohoho

Anyway, you are off-topic. If you want a debate with me, I dare you open a new thread and invite me in there.

 

[AgentOrange]

I have defended some Chinese people here more than you cheer-leaders have. And I used proper arguments and debates, not just one-liners elementary school kids insults like you kids always use. Btw, most of my "thanks" and "thumps up" are from Chinese members LOL. But of course you don't know because you are a noob. Know your place kiddo.

Now I'm pro- Viet and will be giving people like you a hard time. hohohoho

Anyway, you are off-topic. If you want a debate with me, I dare you open a new thread and invite me in there.

I'm a "noob" and you'll be "giving people like me a hard time."? And you "dare" me? I won't open a new thread unless you double dare me. But be careful, as I may preemptively double-dog-dare you back. (In the world of dares, that's the penultimate dare). Seriously, how old are you?

 

[AgentOrange]

The 2014 Oil Rig debacle had resulted in over 2 billion dollars worth in damages to foreign investors, interesting to note that many of the businesses that were destroyed weren't even Chinese owned. This is a security issue for all investors, and since Japan is the largest investor in Vietnam, representing over 30% of all FDI into the country, this should be seen as a security issue for us.

I do hope that the Vietnamese Government solve issue of mob threats, and enforce security on the multi-billion dollar businesses Japan has built in Vietnam, which employs hundreds of thousands of Vietnamese , providing necessary source of sustenance to their families.

At the same time, perhaps it is time for Japan to invest in more stable nations in ASEAN. I for one am in favor of increasing feasibility studies for increased cooperation with say the Philippines, Indonesia, and Thailand. Why even Myanmar, Laos and Cambodia should be considered. In the event that we have to scale back cooperation with Vietnam.

Well, Japan has and hasn't been smart with its money in the past. However, I do think in this new age of global austerity, the Japanese government will be wise enough to know that political motives alone won't be a sufficient enough reason for continued investment in a given nation/entity. The Japanese government will need to see tangible economic benefits from their investments. IMO, the issue will resolve itself and if negative Viet attitudes persist, Japanese money will rightfully dry up. And a Vietnam that brazenly touts its inability to repay past loans as a point of pride, a nation that can't distinguish between China and Germany, certainly seems like a poor bet. Contrast that with Thailand, where even with a military coup(!!), they're still open for business. Japan has a lot of options and as you say, there are many other SE Asian nations that will put Japanese aid to better use.