Vietnam vice minister apologizes to Japan for “$2 Billion loan” gaffe

[ChineseTiger1986]

I really admire the way Vietnamese members here comments/admitting the problems Vietnam is facing today. I consider this a very good step, since its by admiting your mistakes/shortfalls that you can progress and most of all it allows us to have a proper/constructive conversation on here. I dont Chinese mebers here doing this at all(even though they are as corrupt as Vietnam itself), yet they hardly like admitting that/talking about it.

So all my respect to Vietnamese members on here for letting us know the challenges/problems your country faces and what draws it back. Hopefully we will have much such conversations on here, where members can also criticize what they think is wrong in their country/what policies their government take which they(and the people are not happy with), instead of always acting like a paid troll and sticking to one position i.e always saying all the good things about your country, while totally ignoring the bad aspects and insulting anyone who points out that bad apects. Thats why when i think our governments policies/actions abroad are wrong, then i say it, that doesnt means i dont love my country , Nope far from it. We should all learn to avoid being to over nationalistic to the point of being blind/irrational, since this wont change reality. Thats why some people here find it hard to understand my points on here(like one palestinian member once said that im strange because i bash every side/country.lool), its not like i bash every country(including mine.lol). Some even are confused and keep saying im from soo many different countries(since they cant seem to understand why i dont stick to one point of view/side.lool). I just like saying things the way they are, make points/my point of view and make observations. This doesnt means im stateless or whatever lol, Afterall we are in a discussion forum, so i expect to see criticisms/counter criticisms about my country and others while being polite/respectful at the same time(we can all agree to disagree without personal attacks). Since i belive we are all here to exchange points of views/learn from each other. Not to say how an angel our country is.

So kudos again to vietnamese members on here.

The Vietcong doesn't even have 10% of competence comparing to CPC, that's why so many Viet members are disappointed with their incompetence.

CPC is not perfect, but they are still the best form of government that China could have.

If it wasn't CPC, China would definitely remain as an under-developed sh1thole, and no way that you guys in the West would become so obsessed of taking on China.

 

[William Hung]

You're blaming Japan for your own failings. It's Viet corruption that leads to corrupt and incompetent Viet engineers that lead to crappy roads. The common theme here is that all the culprits are Viets. Stop blaming other people for your own problems.

You don't fully understand the anti-Aid/ODA position. Read from page 6 again, especially Mike's posts.

No one here has denied that Viet officials are corrupt. In fact, NiceGuy has always made that point.

The real issue is that there is something inherently and intrinsically wrong with giving non-emergency aid and Japanese style ODA. Read from page 6 again.

 

[AgentOrange]

You don't fully understand the anti-Aid/ODA position. Read from page 6 again, especially Mike's posts.

No one here has denied that Viet officials are corrupt. In fact, NiceGuy has always made that point.

The real issue is that there is something inherently and intrinsically wrong with giving non-emergency aid and Japanese style ODA. Read from page 6 again.

I understand that. At the same time, it's undeniable that certain countries have benefited tremendously from developmental aid. It's not so clear cut as you would make it seem.

 

[cnleio]

I see, Vietnamese need a Clean Official much more than Japanese ODA.

 

[William Hung]

I understand that. At the same time, it's undeniable that certain countries have benefited tremendously from developmental aid. It's not so clear cut as you would make it seem.

I'm not too sure about Vietnam's case, but one of Mike's post shows that it is only a few corrupted elites in Africa (and foreign companies) that benefitted tremendously from these aid.

@NiceGuy argued that this is also the case for VN, and I'm inclined to believe him given the African data that has been published.

The bottom line is, "Aid" are the new opium. When local govt officials becomes addicted to this drug, they become complacent and lazy. And when they become complacent, the development of their country will stagnate.

NiceGuy has good reasons to hate Japanese ODA and want to get rid of it.

 

[William Hung]

I see, Vietnamese need a Clean Official much more than Japanese ODA.

And Japanese ODA keep these corrupt officials alive.

If there are no Japanese ODA, then these officials will need to get their act together and do some real work. They will be forced to find different ways to develop their country, instead of just sitting on their butt and signing ODA projects and bragging how nice this new building is.

 

[AgentOrange]

I'm not too sure about Vietnam's case, but one of Mike's post shows that it is only a few corrupted elites in Africa (and foreign companies) that benefitted tremendously from these aid.

@NiceGuy argued that this is also the case for VN, and I'm inclined to believe him given the African data that has been published.

The bottom line is, "Aid" are the new opium. When local govt officials becomes addicted to this drug, they become complacent and lazy. And when they become complacent, the development of their country will stagnate.

NiceGuy has good reasons to hate Japanese ODA and want to get rid of it.

It all boils down to the government and the society that permits that level of corruption. Speaking as a Chinese person, corruption is endemic to many aspects of Chinese society. Nevertheless, Japanese ODA certainly benefited China's development at a time when Deng Xiaoping (rest in peace!) unleashed the hard work and energy of the Chinese nation. It certainly didn't create an "addict" out of China. Maybe it's a matter of ill-timing for Vietnam or maybe they lack the leadership but at any rate, it's unfortunate for Vietnam that they're in the same grouping as various failed African states when it comes to the "addiction" of ODA.

 

[terranMarine]

Definitely, Vietnamese simply failed the project which resulted the collapse of the structure and the lost of lives. To blame Japan for deliberately weakening Vietnam shows once again just the ingrates some really are. China also got no gratitude from them for the aid we provided during Vietnam War. In fact they believe it was China telling Khmer Rouge to invade the jungle (deliberately weakening them)

 

[NiceGuy]

I agree. Maybe you can post pics of that Mai Dich-Trung Hoa highway that was funded by Japanese ODA.

Both leftists and a lot of right wing economists also agree with your view point because this Japanese style ODA goes against the idea of fair competitions.

You are not guaranteed the best value for your money. The "tenders" issued by the Japanese side is quite dirty in a lot of cases. They decide who wins the contract and the corrupt local officials just need to approve. It is not a real transparent public tender. Contractors can easily rip you off.
!

Seem like I can post pictures here, if u cant see the pic, pls follow the link, this is on Mai Dich- Linh Dam road (a part of Mai Dich-Trung Hoa project)

Mặt đường trên cao của Hà Nội biến dạng do đâu? - VnMedia

The subsidence is similar wt Ha Noi to Thai Nguyen high way-funded by ODA,too.

Minister vows to fix damaged roads

"Overloaded trucks make the situation worse,".— VNA Photo
HA NOI (VNS) — Transport Minister Dinh La Thang has asked road agencies to identify the causes of and solutions to subsidence on major roads across the country by the end of this year.

The deteriorations have appeared on many major roads including National Highway No1 and No5, part of National Highway No3 from Ha Noi to Thai Nguyen and the Noi Bai- Lao Cai Expressway.
Minister vows to fix damaged roads - Society - VietNam News

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

Definitely, Vietnamese simply failed the project which resulted the collapse of the structure and the lost of lives. To blame Japan for deliberately weakening Vietnam shows once again just the ingrates some really are. China also got no gratitude from them for the aid we provided during Vietnam War. In fact they believe it was China telling Khmer Rouge to invade the jungle (deliberately weakening them)

According to NiceGuy, China was responsible for every failure of Vietnam.

 

[terranMarine]

According to NiceGuy, China was responsible for every failure of Vietnam.

If China was controlling Vietnam it wouldn't be a failure, on second thought our millenium rule hardly had any effect. Ah forget it.... it's hopeless with our southern neighbor.

 

[cnleio]

And Japanese ODA keep these corrupt officials alive.

If there are no Japanese ODA, then these officials will need to get their act together and do some real work. They will be forced to find different ways to develop their country, instead of just sitting on their butt and signing ODA projects and bragging how nice this new building is.

ODA is OKay, no any fault for it ... the only problem is inside Vietnam official. Although Japan closed ODA to China, past years ago China also had ODAs from Japan government, at least Chinese officials efficiently used these money to develop local infrastructures, no fool our Chinese ppl like that expensive low building.

It's not the problm of ODAs, it's the problem of local official's IQ ... They even can corrupt money from foreign aid funds, wtf ???

 

[William Hung]

According to NiceGuy, China was responsible for every failure of Vietnam.

If China was controlling Vietnam it wouldn't be a failure, on second thought our millenium rule hardly had any effect. Ah forget it.... it's hopeless with our southern neighbor.

This is a good thread talking about an interesting issue. If you guys want to make petty insults against VN then you should open a new thread. Dont derail and ruin this interesting thread.

 

[William Hung]

It all boils down to the government and the society that permits that level of corruption. Speaking as a Chinese person, corruption is endemic to many aspects of Chinese society. Nevertheless, Japanese ODA certainly benefited China's development at a time when Deng Xiaoping (rest in peace!) unleashed the hard work and energy of the Chinese nation. It certainly didn't create an "addict" out of China. Maybe it's a matter of ill-timing for Vietnam or maybe they lack the leadership but at any rate, it's unfortunate for Vietnam that they're in the same grouping as various failed African states when it comes to the "addiction" of ODA.

ODA is OKay, no any fault for it ... the only problem is inside Vietnam official. Although Japan closed ODA to China, past years ago China also had ODAs from Japan government, at least Chinese officials efficiently used these money to develop local infrastructures, no fool our Chinese ppl like that expensive low building.

Let's put it this way:

A con artist approaches you and want to cheat some money from you. You have 2 options:

1. Play his game, outsmart him and make some money from him.

2. Tell him to piss off. You dont want to waste your time playing his dirty game.

Both options are good. Both of you want to take the first option.

Others, (@NiceGuy?), want to take the second option, which is also reasonable.

Actually, I think NiceGuy said the Vietnamese people is also taking the first option and will revenge Japan in their dirty game. @NiceGuy can you confirm?

And yes, I might sound harsh calling Japanese ODA lenders as con artist but if you read all the articles I've posted, I'm not really far off.

 

[cnleio]

Let's put it this way:

A con artist approaches you and want to cheat some money from you. You have 2 options:

1. Play his game, outsmart him and make some money from him.

2. Tell him to piss off. You dont want to waste your time playing their dirty game.

Both options are good. Both of you want to take the first option.

Others, (@NiceGuy?), want to take the second option, which is also reasonable.

Actually, I think NiceGuy said the Vietnamese people is also taking the first option and will revenge Japan in their dirty game. @NiceGuy can you confirm?

And yes, I might sound harsh calling Japanese ODA lenders as con artist but if you read all the articles I've posted, I'm not really far off.

I give u 3rd opinion ...

3. Play this game, make some money(20%) from him and (80%) efficiently invest local development, then make some money both from him(20%) and local economy(20%), later sell goods to him and make more money (50%) from him ... the story will keep going to earn more & more money (>100%).

At least im sure Chinese did this ... lol.