Vietnam Defence Forum

[frequency]

Where were the Soviet Union and China ? Stop blaming sanctions and embargoes. Just because the West had sanctions and embargoes on post war Viet Nam, are you saying that the Soviet Union and China obeyed ? Let me guess, the Soviet Union and China assisted North Viet Nam during the war, then after the war and unification, both countries got scared by the US ?

News for you -- JPN and SKR entered Viet Nam while those embargoes were in place. The embargoes were not lifted until President Clinton...

http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/clinton-ends-trade-embargo-of-vietnam

JPN and SKR were already in Viet Nam long before 1994. Same for many European countries. Same for Canada.

Viet Nam got poor because of the misguided leadership -- Marxism.

When the US aided JPN and SKR, what system were used ?

When the Soviets and Chinese aided Viet Nam, what system were used ?

The results ? JPN and SKR became wealthy, educated, and worldly, while Viet Nam got mired in the economic and political muck. The fact that you tried to blame US assistance proved my point.

I would have to agree with Gambit on this one. Poor leadership.

We lost. Get over it.

NK would steam roll SK without the US. SK is nothing without the US.

Crediting the US for bringing SK to the first world is not blaming. You need to check your reading comprehension.

My father fought for the south. Got shredded by bullets. Grenades tore his insides out. Mine ripped off half his legs laterally. He still have fragments in him. He went back into combat after every wound, even when they had to saw an inch off his right leg. Snd you know what he thinks? He thinks the south deserve to lose. The south werent motivated fighters. Instead of focusing on winning a war, the south worried more about chasing girls and drinking.

What did you do to help save south Vietnam? Chasing girls while your brothers gave their life?

I would agree on that note. The South Vietnam was weak and it had no purpose to win. North had a purpose, a real one. While South Vietnam was Thailand (a whore house).

Bro you missed several things. JP went thru the period of industrial revolution while VN not. The French did nothing in building just looting the resources. JP was bombed and nuked but VN with Laos and Cambodia received more bombs than the entire Europea in WW II, surpassing JP in terms of nuclear explosions. JP recovering was quick after the war because she has the economic foundation. VN not.

VN was completely destroyed but was held back for another two decades by a combination of western sanction, three front war of aggression by China, Cambodia and Thailand, failed economic policies and last but not least lots of Vietnamese were fleeing the country.

SK is another story. I once said something here about the kimchi folks.

The rise of Japan after the defeat was assisted by the United States, similar the rise of Germany. They received tons of money and technology.

What do you think why both countries today are the most loyal US allies despite they were enemies fighting the Americans to the bitter end? The relationship between VN and CN could take the same path if the Chinese haven't gone back to the centuries old traditional path of destruction policy toward Vietnam.

I think that is what Gambit was trying to say. Bottom line is Vietnam doesn't have the right tools and minds to enables Vietnam to industrialized. However, the possibilities are still there. It needs to promote Higher Education, Engineering and Science.

 

[frequency]

You're just too blinded by your bitterness and ignorance to accept a clear fact.

It is in fact the result of global sanction and embargoes. Just look at Venezuela as we speak. I understand that you are a self loathing coward who avoided the war and now now speak as if you are entitled to your opinion. You are not. You do not know more about the war and the aftermath than anybody. Your opinion is that of a cowardice individual who is bitter because someone else didnt win the war for them.

You brought up about how you fled in 1975, and how you know more about the war than anybody on earth. I brought up my father who was fighting in the war itself while you cower in fear. He knows more about the war than anybody who was cowering under a table with their eyes close, like yourself.

You, gambit, are a worthless individual who will never fight for what he believes but will always blame others for your failings. You read a few bias pieces of history through the eyes of the loser and you consider yourself a historian. You fail to support your premise with facts, instead you cited wiki. If you have ever taken a college level english course, you should know that wikipedia is a unreliable source that anyone can edit. You're just an uneducated old man full of bitterness and contempt for his own failings.

Tenlue, I'm not putting this on you but allow me to give this as an example.

Let's not hate and name calling. Genghis Khan used to say "One arrow alone can be easily broken but many arrows can be indestructible". Let's learn from each other and work together guys. This is how Vietnam is divided today. People have different mindsets and mentality. We judge people based on opinions alone is very short sighted. Vietnamese people are tensed. Always tensed and rarely in an easy state this is because life is tough for an average Vietnamese person.

We need to put our self interests aside and work together to share ideas and knowledge. Let's not try to be "I'm better than you or vice versa" or "I'm right and you're wrong". We all have rights and wrongs. We are humans and nobody is expected to be perfect anyway. We all have flaws. If you are able to forget and forgive, you can go much farther in life. We tend to blame each others for our own problems but the real problem is being able to control ourselves from doing such things.

Here's a saying.
“There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self.”
― Ernest Hemingway

“A proud man is always looking down on things and people; and, of course, as long as you are looking down, you cannot see something that is above you.”
― C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity

“Those who cannot change their minds cannot change anything.”
― George Bernard Shaw

The other problems our Vietnamese people lost are our great leaders. Leaders who aren't selfish, greedy, they put people first before them. Those are the kind of leaders we need to look up to and to learn from.

Gambit has a point. Political systems or structures can hinders a country's economic growths. GDP is a measure of a country's productivity. Production depends on labor and robotics. Pure physical labor is no where as effective as robotics and automation. Regardless of what Vietnam's economy is doing today but if it doesn't have the fundamental structures then in the future, it could fail because Vietnam needs Foundry mills, Machine shops, Fabricators, Engineers, Scientists, Research and Development centers, Higher education, High skill trades. Without these things, we don't have the people to run sophisticated machinery and equipment.

Americans know Vietnam's weakness and they sent Obama to talk about it. But the real question is, did the Vietnamese people listen or even know what he was trying to say? That is the important part of the equation. The speaker can give all the best advice but it is ALWAYS the RECEIVER's responsibility to understand it before he/she takes action. This is very tricky because Vietnam doesn't have many educated people or people of that knowledge and experience to teach it back to younger generations and so on and so forth.

A lot of Vietnamese are capable but they weren't LEAD to the right direction for the country to grow in the right direction. Because our leaders don't know it and experience it before. This is completely new to them and they are walking in the dark with everyone else. This is why Vietnam is growing but not growing as Gambit would anticipated it.

Gambit is bad at explaining things in detail but I am willing to type it out for us to understand his point of view. And that was about 20% of what he is trying to say anyway. I'm pretty sure there is more to it than this. But this is my summary of what is going on.

 

[gambit]

You're just too blinded by your bitterness and ignorance to accept a clear fact.

It is in fact the result of global sanction and embargoes.

Then what were the Soviets and Chinese doing in Viet Nam after the war ?

I understand that you are a self loathing coward who avoided the war and now now speak as if you are entitled to your opinion.

Avoided the war ? I was 12 yrs old. You are making unfounded assumptions of me based upon your failure to support your arguments.

You brought up about how you fled in 1975, and how you know more about the war than anybody on earth.

Yeah...Because you asked if I was Korean. I brought up SKR and JPN as examples of how Vietnamese cannot blame the US. You made my origin an issue.

You, gambit, are a worthless individual who will never fight for what he believes but will always blame others for your failings.

And what have you done for your beliefs, if you have any ? I am a USAF veteran. F-111 in the Cold War in the UK, then F-16 in Desert Storm. I would say I have done more for my beliefs than you will EVER do for yours. Me worthless ? Go look in the mirror.

You read a few bias pieces of history through the eyes of the loser and you consider yourself a historian. You fail to support your premise with facts, instead you cited wiki.

Can you disprove the fact that the Soviet Union sent aid to Viet Nam after the war ?

Can you disprove the fact that SKR and JPN entered Viet Nam despite US sanctions and embargoes ?

Can you disprove the fact that many European countries defied US sanctions and embargoes and did business with Viet Nam ?

For example...

http://www.canadainternational.gc.ca/vietnam/bilateral_relations_bilaterales/index.aspx?lang=eng

Canada restored official development assistance to Vietnam in 1990...

President Clinton did not remove the embargoes until 1994.

Are you going to tell everyone that the Canadian government sources are editable by anyone ?

You're just an uneducated old man full of bitterness and contempt for his own failings.

And you are just another ignorant young pup who thinks he knows everything. Am willing to bet dollars to doughnuts that you learned more from wiki than you let on.

Gambit has a point. Political systems or structures can hinders a country's economic growths.

That is the ONLY point worth talking about. JPN is a resource poor country, and yet look at what they have done starting with the turn of the 20th century when they realized their backwardness compared to the Europeans. They changed their minds and that changed their country.

Blaming the US is nothing but a convenient scapegoat because the Viets on this forum is too cowardly to turn their critical gaze at their own government. It is funny -- that. They expect Americans to be critical of the US government, but when it comes to the Vietnamese government, they expect blind obedience.

There is Vietnamese phrase that the communist used for each other: " đồng chí "

It supposed to mean 'Comrade'. But the literal translation is 'same mind'. Perfect descriptor for the Viets on this forum.

 

[Viva_Viet]

I wouldnt go that far when it comes to Japan though. SK is a whole different story.



Yeh, he was ARVN.

JP was just the pirate island in history, and nuclear testing field for daddy US now. Nothing special abt them.

T

Can you disprove the fact that the Soviet Union sent aid to Viet Nam after the war ?

Can you disprove the fact that SKR and JPN entered Viet Nam despite US sanctions and embargoes ?

Can you disprove the fact that many European countries defied US sanctions and embargoes and did business with Viet Nam ?
.

Yes, Soviet Union sent aid to Viet Nam after the war but we had to use that aid to defeat Pol Pot and protected Laos - new Cambodia govt. against Thailand- Pol Pot supported by CN-US-NATO. Do u know that your daddy US also supported Pol Pot to massacre your fellow Vnese ???

VN almost got nothing left from Soviet aid .

 

[TenLua]

Then what were the Soviets and Chinese doing in Viet Nam after the war ?


Avoided the war ? I was 12 yrs old. You are making unfounded assumptions of me based upon your failure to support your arguments.


Yeah...Because you asked if I was Korean. I brought up SKR and JPN as examples of how Vietnamese cannot blame the US. You made my origin an issue.


And what have you done for your beliefs, if you have any ? I am a USAF veteran. F-111 in the Cold War in the UK, then F-16 in Desert Storm. I would say I have done more for my beliefs than you will EVER do for yours. Me worthless ? Go look in the mirror.


Can you disprove the fact that the Soviet Union sent aid to Viet Nam after the war ?

Can you disprove the fact that SKR and JPN entered Viet Nam despite US sanctions and embargoes ?

Can you disprove the fact that many European countries defied US sanctions and embargoes and did business with Viet Nam ?

For example...

http://www.canadainternational.gc.ca/vietnam/bilateral_relations_bilaterales/index.aspx?lang=eng

President Clinton did not remove the embargoes until 1994.

Are you going to tell everyone that the Canadian government sources are editable by anyone ?


And you are just another ignorant young pup who thinks he knows everything. Am willing to bet dollars to doughnuts that you learned more from wiki than you let on.


That is the ONLY point worth talking about. JPN is a resource poor country, and yet look at what they have done starting with the turn of the 20th century when they realized their backwardness compared to the Europeans. They changed their minds and that changed their country.

Blaming the US is nothing but a convenient scapegoat because the Viets on this forum is too cowardly to turn their critical gaze at their own government. It is funny -- that. They expect Americans to be critical of the US government, but when it comes to the Vietnamese government, they expect blind obedience.

There is Vietnamese phrase that the communist used for each other: " đồng chí "

It supposed to mean 'Comrade'. But the literal translation is 'same mind'. Perfect descriptor for the Viets on this forum.

Ok. You win.

Tenlue, I'm not putting this on you but allow me to give this as an example.

Let's not hate and name calling. Genghis Khan used to say "One arrow alone can be easily broken but many arrows can be indestructible". Let's learn from each other and work together guys. This is how Vietnam is divided today. People have different mindsets and mentality. We judge people based on opinions alone is very short sighted. Vietnamese people are tensed. Always tensed and rarely in an easy state this is because life is tough for an average Vietnamese person.

We need to put our self interests aside and work together to share ideas and knowledge. Let's not try to be "I'm better than you or vice versa" or "I'm right and you're wrong". We all have rights and wrongs. We are humans and nobody is expected to be perfect anyway. We all have flaws. If you are able to forget and forgive, you can go much farther in life. We tend to blame each others for our own problems but the real problem is being able to control ourselves from doing such things.

Here's a saying.
“There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self.”
― Ernest Hemingway

“A proud man is always looking down on things and people; and, of course, as long as you are looking down, you cannot see something that is above you.”
― C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity

“Those who cannot change their minds cannot change anything.”
― George Bernard Shaw

The other problems our Vietnamese people lost are our great leaders. Leaders who aren't selfish, greedy, they put people first before them. Those are the kind of leaders we need to look up to and to learn from.

Gambit has a point. Political systems or structures can hinders a country's economic growths. GDP is a measure of a country's productivity. Production depends on labor and robotics. Pure physical labor is no where as effective as robotics and automation. Regardless of what Vietnam's economy is doing today but if it doesn't have the fundamental structures then in the future, it could fail because Vietnam needs Foundry mills, Machine shops, Fabricators, Engineers, Scientists, Research and Development centers, Higher education, High skill trades. Without these things, we don't have the people to run sophisticated machinery and equipment.

Americans know Vietnam's weakness and they sent Obama to talk about it. But the real question is, did the Vietnamese people listen or even know what he was trying to say? That is the important part of the equation. The speaker can give all the best advice but it is ALWAYS the RECEIVER's responsibility to understand it before he/she takes action. This is very tricky because Vietnam doesn't have many educated people or people of that knowledge and experience to teach it back to younger generations and so on and so forth.

A lot of Vietnamese are capable but they weren't LEAD to the right direction for the country to grow in the right direction. Because our leaders don't know it and experience it before. This is completely new to them and they are walking in the dark with everyone else. This is why Vietnam is growing but not growing as Gambit would anticipated it.

Gambit is bad at explaining things in detail but I am willing to type it out for us to understand his point of view. And that was about 20% of what he is trying to say anyway. I'm pretty sure there is more to it than this. But this is my summary of what is going on.

I agree. You have good valid points.

I'm too used to talking shit to hating indo and chinese members on here. I need to chill it with the trash talking.

 

[gambit]

Yes, Soviet Union sent aid to Viet Nam after the war but we had to use that aid to defeat Pol Pot and protected Laos - new Cambodia govt. against Thailand- Pol Pot supported by CN-US-NATO.

That is nonsense and everybody know it.

Nothing is better than capitalism at generating wealth, even when the country is at war. Post war Vietnamese leadership continued to believe in the failed economic policies dictated by Marxism and THAT is/was the true cause of Viet Nam's economic failure.

Wise up.

Ok. You win.

I always do.

So after the lecture from you to me about arguing from facts, it turned out that YOU failed your own criticism.

 

[Viet]

I would have to agree with Gambit on this one. Poor leadership.

I would agree on that note. The South Vietnam was weak and it had no purpose to win. North had a purpose, a real one. While South Vietnam was Thailand (a whore house).


I think that is what Gambit was trying to say. Bottom line is Vietnam doesn't have the right tools and minds to enables Vietnam to industrialized. However, the possibilities are still there. It needs to promote Higher Education, Engineering and Science.

Given one is blessed of a bit of knowledge of history, every schoolkid knows VN was divided until 1975, and had not any private manufacturing until 1986. Comparing JP to VN lacks every basis. I am never a fan of socialism nor communism but Gambit view is biased.

Ok let's forget the past for a while, after years no after a century of chaos, I think VN today is on the right path. What we need is 10 more years to get industrialized and the army modernizated, in short 10 years more peace to focus on economy, everything else is secondary.

 

[Farhan Bohra]

Hey hey great stuff. Long live Russia

You got any source to the purchase?

Why not MS?

Yes, you did. You tried to blame the US.

Whats the problem in blaming US? US bombed the whole shit, and leave that. US bombed the Laos and Cambodia.

Does these countries were at state of war with US? Does US going to pay reparations to Cambodia and Laos for bombing those countries and violating there sovereignty?

Or US just somehow, by god's grace got this knowledge that these country's were third world and poor, so US was liable to violate and bomb these countries?
I am impressed by your hypocrisy, first you bomb people, and then say hey dont blame us.

Instead of becoming like holier than thou, you should say that US was serving there own interest in Vietnam like Soviet Union. And we bombed the whole shit because of our interests.

That should be better argument.

 

[Viva_Viet]

That is nonsense and everybody know it.

Nothing is better than capitalism at generating wealth, even when the country is at war. Post war Vietnamese leadership continued to believe in the failed economic policies dictated by Marxism and THAT is/was the true cause of Viet Nam's economic failure.

Wise up.
.

German,JP used capitalism at generating wealth before WW2 and still failed and become US's dogs till now. Without US's protection, those countries can be wiped out easily by Russia, NK.

Capitalism only benefit to US and help US exploit more money from vassal states and fund to terrorist group like Pol Pot , Taliban etc

 

[Aqsuperman]

"We crossed thousand of kilometers from the other side of the globe just to bombed the fck outta of you, funded every organization or movement that can hurt you but dont you dare blame us about anything". Fun conclusion indeed.

So to go back to some relevant issues instead ideology, here is another assumption about the sudden return of the Chinese general, also relate to oil under the sea.

Vietnam drills for oil in South China Sea

Vietnam has begun drilling for oil in an area of the resource-rich South China Sea also claimed by China.

An oil industry consultant told the BBC that a drilling ship on contract to international firm Talisman-Vietnam was working off Vietnam's south-east coast.

This appears to be why a senior Chinese general cut short an official visit to Vietnam last month.

China claims almost all of the South China Sea, including reefs and islands also contested by other nations.

According to Ian Cross, of Singapore-based Moyes & Co, the drillship Deepsea Metro I, began to drill in an area of sea about 400km (250 miles) off the Vietnamese coast on 21 June.

It is likely that the news was kept secret because of its extreme sensitivity.

Other oil industry sources have told the BBC that Talisman-Vietnam was denied permission to drill over the past three years to avoid upsetting China.

It would appear that by taking such a bold move, the leadership in Hanoi is less concerned about such risks now.

The piece of seabed in question is known as Block 136-03 by Vietnam, but China calls it Wan-an Bei 21 and has leased out the same area to a different company. In 2014 the Chinese rights were bought by a Hong Kong-based company called Brightoil.

Two of the directors of Brightoil are senior members of the Chinese Communist Party.

Talisman-Vietnam was formerly owned by the Canadian company Talisman but since 2015 has been part of the Spanish-owned Repsol group.

Gen Fan Changlong, who is Vice-Chair of China's Central Military Commission, recently paid a visit to Madrid, where Repsol is based. Repsol has not responded to BBC questions about whether the Chinese authorities have made any protest to the company.

In 2014 coastguard vessels and other ships belonging to China and Vietnam confronted each other in a different area of the South China Sea, further north near the Paracel Islands.

Since then the two countries have tried to avoid confrontation. However, Vietnam has clearly decided that the risks of a crisis are relatively low.

So far the only casualty of Vietnam's new oil expedition has been a planned meeting of the annual Vietnam-China border defence friendship exchange.

That high-level meeting between the two countries' militaries was supposed to have taken place on the same day the Deepsea Metro I began drilling.

Instead, Gen Fan - who was due in Hanoi after his Madrid visit - flew home, citing problems with the "working arrangements".

Vietnam may have judged that with China currently promoting its "Belt and Road" initiative to the region and encouraging other countries to agree the new Regional Comprehensive Economic Partnership (RCEP), at the same time as it is preparing for its crucial Communist Party congress, it would be unwilling to provoke a regional crisis.

There are no obvious signs of Chinese retaliation so far but we could see a tit-for-tat response with Beijing authorising a drilling operation in an area that Vietnam also claims. This, however, would take some time to organise.

 

[Viet]

Why not MS?



Whats the problem in blaming US? US bombed the whole shit, and leave that. US bombed the Laos and Cambodia.

Does these countries were at state of war with US? Does US going to pay reparations to Cambodia and Laos for bombing those countries and violating there sovereignty?

Or US just somehow, by god's grace got this knowledge that these country's were third world and poor, so US was liable to violate and bomb these countries?
I am impressed by your hypocrisy, first you bomb people, and then say hey dont blame us.

Instead of becoming like holier than thou, you should say that US was serving there own interest in Vietnam like Soviet Union. And we bombed the whole shit because of our interests.

That should be better argument.

I have no clue why S and not MS. Maybe would be overkill or S is cheaper. Ah you know the weak gets thrashed while the strong laughs blaming the victim it is his way of life that kills him. Not everything else. Vietnam has gone thru a valley of blood and tears.

There is something gambit never learns.

 

[Viet]

Navy starts drills with Vietnam days after sailing near disputed South China Sea island


The USS Coronado arrived at Cam Ranh International Port, Vietnam, for a five-day exericise with the Vietnamese navy, Wednesday, July 5, 2017.


AMY RESSLER/U.S. NAVY
By TYLER HLAVAC | STARS AND STRIPES Published: July 5, 2017

The Navy has kicked off naval drills with Vietnam, just days after sending a guided-missile destroyer near a South China Sea islet claimed by China, Taiwan and Vietnam.

The USS Coronado and USNS Salvor steamed into Vietnam’s Cam Ranh International Port Wednesday for the annual five-day “Naval Engagement Activity,” which will include ship handling, medical evacuations and practicing the Code for Unplanned Encounters at Sea, a Navy statement said. Skill exchanges will cover shipboard damage control, shipboard medicine and law.

“The United States values our comprehensive partnership with Vietnam and we look forward to deepening our relationship and people-to-people ties through engagements like NEA,” Task Force 73 Commander Rear Adm. Don Gabrielson said in the statement.

Personnel from Task Force 73, Destroyer Squadron 7 and the 7th Fleet Band will also participate, the statement said.

“These naval activities underscore the deepening and diverse relationship between the United States and Vietnam,” U.S. Ambassador to Vietnam Ted Osius said in the statement. “Our security cooperation was an important discussion point during the recent meeting between President [Donald] Trump and Prime Minister Nguyen Xuan Phuc.”

The exercise, which has been held annually since 2010, is being based for the first time at recently opened Cam Ranh International Port. Previous drills took place more than 300 miles north in Da Nang.

During a 2012 visit to Cam Ranh Bay, then-Secretary of Defense Leon Panetta called Navy access to the port “a key component” of the U.S.-Vietnam relationship, according to The Diplomat.

The exercise begins just days after the guided-missile destroyer USS Stethem on Sunday sailed within 12 nautical miles of Triton, a South China Sea island in the Paracels chain claimed by China, Vietnam and Taiwan. A Chinese official called the operation “provocative” and said such actions “violate China's sovereignty and threaten China's security.”

A Navy official told Bloomberg the warship was passing through those waters on the basis of innocent passage.

hlavac.tyler@stripes.com

 

[Viet]

USS Coronado

 

[Viet]

USNS Salvor, USS Coranado seen in the Bay

 

[DarkMoon198]

Given one is blessed of a bit of knowledge of history, every schoolkid knows VN was divided until 1975, and had not any private manufacturing until 1986. Comparing JP to VN lacks every basis. I am never a fan of socialism nor communism but Gambit view is biased.

Ok let's forget the past for a while, after years no after a century of chaos, I think VN today is on the right path. What we need is 10 more years to get industrialized and the army modernizated, in short 10 years more peace to focus on economy, everything else is secondary.

Vietnam under France don't have any industry, most just related to extraction of resource, France didn't build any infrastructure that can help to build up industry while Japan did build industry in Korea as well as provide them with higher education while France just block education opportunity to mostly Catholic follower. Take into account 8 million bomb drop in Second Indochina War as well as lack of higher quality education institution , this can partly explain the situation of why government find it difficult to build up industry.

This documentary by German director Marc Eberle state quite clearly what happen in Indochina under France in 20th century . In German it is "In fremden Diensten: Deutsche Legionäre im Indochinakrieg"