What's new

Vietnam Defence Forum

The keywords are the ones just before what you highlighted, that is, “According to the same sources”. Those “sources” that the article is refering to are Vietnamese local media. Or more specifically, speculations from local VN media and journalists.

I myself don’t know the technical nuances in integrating western and Russian systems. Actually another American member here who probably knows bout it is @Sven... you can try tag and ask him the possibilities.

Personally, I very much doubt it is possible, not just because of technical, security or political issues, but because of business issues too. If Russia wants to pressure VN into buying Russian products rather than non-russian ones, then Russia can just simply refuse to assist VN in integrating the said products. Besides, the non-russian counter-parts will probably be in that same position as well, they also have their own business, political and security concerns when dealing with Russia.

Just to add on the bolded part, To integrate Western and Russian systems, one would require approval from both first.

Russians were quiet disappointed when India integrated Western technologies in Brahmos despite signing an IPR agreement.
 
Last edited:
Just to add on the bolded part, To add Western and Russian systems, one would required approval from both first.

Russians were quite disappointed when India integrated Western technologies in Brahmos despite signing an IPR agreement with Russia.

Very true...and VN is in a much much tougher position than India because of the lack of technical know-how... so to integrate both systems, VN will be totally dependent on both the western and Russian manufacturers...and I doubt any of them will agree to it, for political or security reasons.
 
Very true...and VN is in a much much tougher position than India because of the lack of technical know-how... so to integrate both systems, VN will be totally dependent on both the western and Russian manufacturers...and I doubt any of them will agree to it, for political or security reasons.
Security reasons primarily, Russian were jumpy about India's cooperation with Israel on weapons integration, fearing leak of information on Russian weapon technologies to the West.
 
The keywords are the ones just before what you highlighted, that is, “According to the same sources”. Those “sources” that the article is refering to are Vietnamese local media. Or more specifically, speculations from local VN media and journalists.

I myself don’t know the technical nuances in integrating western and Russian systems. Actually another American member here who probably knows bout it is @Sven... you can try tag and ask him the possibilities.

Personally, I very much doubt it is possible, not just because of technical, security or political issues, but because of business issues too. If Russia wants to pressure VN into buying Russian products rather than non-russian ones, then Russia can just simply refuse to assist VN in integrating the said products. Besides, the non-russian counter-parts will probably be in that same position as well, they also have their own business, political and security concerns when dealing with Russia.

Maybe, but how do you know that those sources are the local vietnamese media and that whoever the source is, that such statement is not true?

Actually, the Israelis have a lot of experience integrating Russian systems since they have done quite a lot of that, so is not something to dismiss.

Sure, Russia can pressure VN and VN can also go shopping elsewhere and give Russia the finger. It can also tell them to look for another place to send those refueling flights from or to look for another base other than Cam Ranh Bay, etc.

The Russians gave India a very high price to integrate the R-73 missile into the Tejas, so India went for Python 5 instead and Russia lost the sales of R-73 missiles. Its a 2 way street game.

Its not in the interest of Russia to push Vietnam away.
 
Maybe, but how do you know that those sources are the local vietnamese media and that whoever the source is, that such statement is not true?

Actually, the Israelis have a lot of experience integrating Russian systems since they have done quite a lot of that, so is not something to dismiss.

Sure, Russia can pressure VN and VN can also go shopping elsewhere and give Russia the finger. It can also tell them to look for another place to send those refueling flights from or to look for another base other than Cam Ranh Bay, etc.

The Russians gave India a very high price to integrate the R-73 missile into the Tejas, so India went for Python 5 instead and Russia lost the sales of R-73 missiles. Its a 2 way street game.

Its not in the interest of Russia to push Vietnam away.
why should Russia abandon Vietnam if they make profit from Sino-Vietnam rivalry by playing both parties against each others? the more confrontations, the more arms and businesses the russians make with both China and Vietnam. or the chinese pay bribe money to Moskow if noticing Vietnam wants a toy that can potentially change the balance of power. if Putin abandons Hanoi, he would lose the leverage against Xi Jinping.

Kh-29TE surface-to-ground missile. the weapon of choice for Su-22 fighter jets.
ten_lua_tren_tiem_kich_SU30MK2.jpg



3.6.jpg


SU-22VN.jpg
 
Last edited:
Maybe, but how do you know that those sources are the local vietnamese media and that whoever the source is, that such statement is not true?

I know those sources are local vietnamese media because the article clearly said so. :)

see the quote:

Vietnamese Air Force could be the first customer of the C295 AEW&C aircraft

Vietnam would buy two Airbus C295 AEW&C aircraft, according to Vietnamese Media sources...

Actually, you can just google something like Vietnam + C295 AEW and you can probably still find those original vietnamese media articles. Also I didn’t said it is absolutely impossible...I said I personally very much doubt it. And those VN media source didn’t claim (and neither did that English article) that they have info that Airbus/ELTA can integrate them...they only said they think Airbus/ELTA could help VN do it.


Actually, the Israelis have a lot of experience integrating Russian systems since they have done quite a lot of that, so is not something to dismiss.

Sure Israel has a lot of experience working with/upgrading Russian platforms like MiGs, tanks, etc. but I have yet to hear any example of them integrating modern Russian fighters with non-russian assets...I’m refering to something like integrating western AEW/AWACs with modern Russian fighters that doesn’t use Israeli or third-party communication system (VN’s Su-30 use a Russian system). Things like providing a datalink between a C-295 AEW-C and the Su-30, I doubt Russia would be willing to hand over sensitive data to a third party to make that possible.


Sure, Russia can pressure VN and VN can also go shopping elsewhere and give Russia the finger. It can also tell them to look for another place to send those refueling flights from or to look for another base other than Cam Ranh Bay, etc.

The Russians gave India a very high price to integrate the R-73 missile into the Tejas, so India went for Python 5 instead and Russia lost the sales of R-73 missiles. Its a 2 way street game.

Its not in the interest of Russia to push Vietnam away.

Well, we will see if that will happen or not.
 
apropos Russia, local media quoted Major General Đỗ Minh Tuấn, deputy commander of the Air Force, saying after receiving the 36th Su-30 this year, the army would look for a new modern fighter jet. Su-35 or a western aircraft?

a pair of Su-30 takes off.

dau-la-ghe-chi-huy-tren-tiem-kich-su30mk2_2573730.jpg
 
I know those sources are local vietnamese media because the article clearly said so. :)

see the quote:



Actually, you can just google something like Vietnam + C295 AEW and you can probably still find those original vietnamese media articles. Also I didn’t said it is absolutely impossible...I said I personally very much doubt it. And those VN media source didn’t claim (and neither did that English article) that they have info that Airbus/ELTA can integrate them...they only said they think Airbus/ELTA could help VN do it.




Sure Israel has a lot of experience working with/upgrading Russian platforms like MiGs, tanks, etc. but I have yet to hear any example of them integrating modern Russian fighters with non-russian assets...I’m refering to something like integrating western AEW/AWACs with modern Russian fighters that doesn’t use Israeli or third-party communication system (VN’s Su-30 use a Russian system). Things like providing a datalink between a C-295 AEW-C and the Su-30, I doubt Russia would be willing to hand over sensitive data to a third party to make that possible.




Well, we will see if that will happen or not.

I guess we'll hope for the best. Russia doesn't have a whole lot of friends these days and its not in their interest to antagonize Vietnam. Russia is quite unhappy already having to depend on China for some financial / economic help, so they need to keep good relations with the few friends that they have left.


apropos Russia, local media quoted Major General Đỗ Minh Tuấn, deputy commander of the Air Force, saying after receiving the 36th Su-30 this year, the army would look for a new modern fighter jet. Su-35 or a western aircraft?

a pair of Su-30 takes off.

dau-la-ghe-chi-huy-tren-tiem-kich-su30mk2_2573730.jpg

I think both, SU-35 and F-16. I think Vietnam will go both ways and keep one foot on each direction just to be safe. Its not good to put all your eggs in one basket.

why should Russia abandon Vietnam if they make profit from Sino-Vietnam rivalry by playing both parties against each others? the more confrontations, the more arms and businesses the russians make with both China and Vietnam. or the chinese pay bribe money to Moskow if noticing Vietnam wants a toy that can potentially change the balance of power. if Putin abandons Hanoi, he would lose the leverage against Xi Jinping.

Kh-29TE surface-to-ground missile. the weapon of choice for Su-22 fighter jets.
ten_lua_tren_tiem_kich_SU30MK2.jpg



3.6.jpg


SU-22VN.jpg

Thats also my point, I don't see a good reason for Russia to not cooperate with Vietnam other than under intense pressure from China and even in that case, I don't think they will cut off Vietnam. The Russians know that the situation with China is a marriage of convenience and is not long lasting, they don't trust the chinese one bit.
 
Last edited:
Sure Israel has a lot of experience working with/upgrading Russian platforms like MiGs, tanks, etc. but I have yet to hear any example of them integrating modern Russian fighters with non-russian assets...I’m refering to something like integrating western AEW/AWACs with modern Russian fighters that doesn’t use Israeli or third-party communication system (VN’s Su-30 use a Russian system). Things like providing a datalink between a C-295 AEW-C and the Su-30, I doubt Russia would be willing to hand over sensitive data to a third party to make that possible..

I don't think interfacing Russian and western datalinks is a big issue, that should be an easy one for the Israelis to integrate and I think Vietnam can also do it by itself (Viettel should be able to do it). Many former Varsaw Pact countries had to interface their old Russian equipment with the newer western equipment and it was done.

The Vietnamese air surveillance network that was done by Viettel has to be able to communicate with the SU-30 datalinks (that's basic) and at that point it should be able to interface with western datalinks. There is equipment available that will integrate many different datalink systems including any user defined datalink (like a Russian one). Such equipment is called "Multi tactical data link gateway engine".

One example: http://www.isihellas.com/products/tactical-data-links/universal-link-system-uls

Vietnam obviously has the encryption codes for the SU-30 datalinks (otherwise it could not use them) and at that point it can interface the data with a western datalink via an interfacing box. A C-295 AWACS will have the equipment to interface with different tactical datalinks systems.

Same story with missile datalinks. Vietnam has to have the datalink information for a KH-35 as an example and be able to link to other ISR data that can guide the missile. If Vietnam has that capability, them it can also use that data to interface with a C-295 datalink. If Vietnam does not have that capability, then Vietnam is getting ripped off. I don't want to think that's the case.

ULS - The Multi Tactical Data Link Gateway Engine
uls-tel.jpg


The ULS is a versatile, modular, scalable, Data Link Processor(DLP) that can be configured to include all NATO, U.S. Standard Data Links as well as customer-defined Links in any combination required by the end-user.

Constitutes a force multiplier offering an increase in the Situational Awareness by delivering the Common Tactical Picture and improving control of all linked Tactical assets.

The Universal Link System (ULS) is a network-centric software solution that enables a seamless, configurable, expandable integration of Data Links on Land, Sea and Air platforms and assets, providing them with participation and forwarding amongst Link 16, Link 11A, Link 11B, Link1, ATDL-1, IJMS, JREAP and Link 22 in the near future.

It can be configured as a single Data Link solution for any C2 or non-C2 asset and expand easily for multiple Data Links connectivity and forwarding, by simply adding the appropriate s/w and h/w components.

The ULS is easily integrated into any existing C2 system by expanding its capabilities in delivering the Common Tactical Picture (CTP). This is achieved by its open architecture and information exchange interfacing protocols.

In a stand-alone configuration the ULS provides C2 operational capabilities, such as Data Fusion, Track Management, Correlation/De-correlation, ID/IFF Conflict, Pairing, Filtering, Threat evaluation and more.

The ULS is an essential step in achieving Inter-Service interoperability and provides the basis of a truly integrated tactical environment.

uls_network_centric.jpg


Features

  • Connectivity to any type of tactical host (C2, Weapons etc.)
  • Advanced Multi-Link Data Forwarding capabilities amongst all links with user-defined filters (Geographic, Altitude, Positional etc.)
  • Expandable to incorporate customer-defined Data Links
  • Complete and thorough message sets implementation for Link 16,Link 11 A/B, Link 1, TADIL-A, IJMS, with Link 22 under development
  • C2 Operational capabilities, including Commands & Orders, Weapons Control & Status, ID/IFF Conflict, Pairing, Filtering Threat Evaluation etc.
  • Capable of integrating and processing active and passive sensor inputs (ASTERIX, AIRCAT etc.)
  • Multi-Link Correlation / De-correlation processing
  • Robust and efficient Data Extraction / Reduction functionality
  • Based on COTS equipment keeping physical footprint and costs to a minimum
  • Stand-alone or multi-console configurations with its own interface or integrated into a legacy tactical mission system
  • Field transportable configuration for high mobility small units
  • Dual or single display – Graphical C2 Tactical Situation
  • Configurable Track Information Display
  • Enhanced MAP and display filtering options with the capability of displaying maps in multiple formats
  • Intuitive dialogue-driven action initiation
  • Comprehensive Menu sets for managing Data Links and executing C2 functions
  • Web interface to control the Data Links operation
Proven
Installations of the ULS exist today in various configurations in Land, Sea and Air assets in a number of countries around the world, providing them with effective Data Link capabilities to share tactical information and improve their Situational Awareness

Customizable
The ULS is customizable to include and integrate with National and non-standard Data Links, apart from the range of NATO and U.S. standard links

Cost Effective
Cost-effective solution allowing for gradual expansion of capabilities as the operational needs increase
 
Last edited:
I guess we'll hope for the best. Russia doesn't have a whole lot of friends these days and its not in their interest to antagonize Vietnam. Russia is quite unhappy already having to depend on China for some financial / economic help, so they need to keep good relations with the few friends that they have left.

I don't think interfacing Russian and western datalinks is a big issue, that should be an easy one for the Israelis to integrate. Many former Varsaw Pact countries had to interface their old Russian equipment with the newer western equipment and it was done. That being said, I'm certainly not much of an expert on this.



I think both, SU-35 and F-16. I think Vietnam will go both ways and keep one foot on each direction just to be safe. Its not good to put all your eggs in one basket.



Thats also my point, I don't see a good reason for Russia to not cooperate with Vietnam other than under intense pressure from China and even in that case, I don't think they will cut off Vietnam. The Russians know that the situation with China is a marriage of convenience and is not long lasting, they don't trust the chinese one bit.
I think Russia feels very uncomfortable just being a junior partner in China great game. That is not what she wants. Losing Vietnam to China would not only mean the end of Russia influence in Vietnam but Cambodia, Laos, yes, SE Asia. Not too mention the SC sea, the western Pacific. Should Russia give up other regions such as Central Asia too? That would be the end for Russia as great power.

The Chinese think can lure the Russians into the trap, with money and other honey promises. one should not forget, all the money poured to Russia serve first and foremost Chinese companies. Or worse, loans with high interests. Buying Russia assets for a handful yuans. America as common enemy is too little. Too vague. Too short lived.
 
Last edited:
I think Russia feels very uncomfortable just being a junior partner in China great game. That is not what she wants. Losing Vietnam to China would not only mean the end of Russia influence in Vietnam but Cambodia, Laos, yes, SE Asia. Not too mention the SC sea, the western Pacific. Should Russia give up other regions such as Central Asia too? That would be the end for Russia as great power.

The Chinese think can lure the Russians into the trap, with money and other honey promises. one should not forget, all the money poured to Russia serve first and foremost Chinese companies. Or worse, loans with high interests. Buying Russia assets for a handful yuans. America as common enemy is too little. Too vague. Too short lived.

I totally agree with you, the Russians understand the chinese very well. Its just a temporary marriage of convenience.
 
June 26, 2016 1:00 pm JST
Vietnam eyes secondhand Japanese defense gear
ATSUSHI TOMIYAMA, Nikkei staff writer

160623-Vietnam_secondhand_article_main_image.jpg

A Japanese Maritime Self-Defense Force P-3C anti-submarine patrol aircraft sits on Palawan Island in the western Philippines, near the disputed Spratly Islands, in June 2015. © Reuters

HANOI -- Vietnam is looking to beef up its defense capabilities, particularly now that the U.S. has fully lifted its arms embargo against the country.

It is especially keen to enhance its air patrols to counter China, which has been building military facilities on artificial islands in the South China Sea. The problem is the hefty price tag of U.S. gear. As an alternative, Vietnam is apparently looking to buy cheaper secondhand aircraft from Japan's Maritime Self-Defense Force.



More than a bargain

Vietnam has long wanted anti-submarine aircraft and many analysts thought Vietnam would move quickly to purchase one from the U.S. once the arms embargo was lifted. But Japan has also emerged as a potential supplier. According to a Japanese official, the Vietnamese navy informally asked in the spring to buy retired MSDF P-3C anti-submarine aircraft.

The P-3C patrol plane is a derivative of the P-3 Orion, a surveillance plane made by Lockheed Martin of the U.S. Japan's Kawasaki Heavy Industries is licensed to build the aircraft, which has broad search capabilities and is good at detecting submarines. The MSDF is said to own about 80 of the planes.

Vietnam frets about China's underwater threat. Beijing is estimated to have at least 70 submarines. The Southeast Asian country has purchased six Kilo-class submarines from Russia since 2015. But that is far from enough to counter China. An improved air patrol fleet is essential to its anti-submarine capabilities.

Reuters reports that Vietnam is expected to ask Lockheed Martin to for pricing and availability data on four to six older U.S. Navy P-3 Orions in the next few months. A brand-new P-3 would probably go for at least $80 million, which would keep Vietnam from buying more than one at a time.

But money is not the only reason why Vietnam is turning to Japan. First, Japan will have more P-3C aircraft available. The MSDF has been replacing the propeller-driven planes with the cutting-edge P-1 jet since 2013. Also, Vietnam hopes to get training along with the planes. P-3C pilots must be able to distinguish enemy submarines from other craft by the sound of their screws, for instance. The MSDF is considered to be one of the most sophisticated operators of the aircraft in the world. Vietnam appears to think it would be easier to learn from Japan, with which it has political and economic ties.

160623-Vietnam_secondhand2_middle_320.jpg

A Japanese Maritime Self-Defense Force ship makes a rare call in May at Cam Ranh Bay, a strategic port in southern Vietnam, the second in as many months. (Courtesy of the Japanese Ministry of Defense)

In addition, Vietnam apparently hopes to hone its skills through joint exercises with the MSDF. Japanese P-3Cs have been visiting Danang, in central Vietnam, for several years. This year, the two sides are scheduled to hold joint search and rescue drills. For the MSDF, the exercise is an opportunity to show off its humanitarian work. For Vietnam, it could provide advance training with the P-3C.

In late May, after meeting with visiting U.S. President Barack Obama, Tran Dai Quang, his Vietnamese counterpart, welcomed the complete lifting of the 41-year-old arms embargo, which dates to the end of the Vietnam War. "Both countries have completely normalized relations," Tran said at a joint news conference with Obama after their meeting.

The lifting of the restrictions will encourage Vietnam to allow U.S. Navy ships to call at Cam Ranh Bay, a strategic port in the south of the country. The U.S. is eager to get access to the strategic port. The first U.S. Navy destroyer is expected to call in the autumn or later, something that China is bound to notice.

Soothing China

China remains one of Vietnam's most important neighbors. It is the country's second-largest trade partner in value terms, accounting for 20% of the total, and the Communist Party of Vietnam is modeled after its Chinese counterpart.

Vietnamese Defense Minister Ngo Xuan Lich skipped the June 3 annual forum known as the Shangri-La Dialogue on Asian security in Singapore. Instead he sent his deputy, Nguyen Chi Vinh, to the conference. Ngo may have been trying to avoid annoying China, which is sparring with the U.S. over Beijing's military buildup in the South China Sea.

For now, Hanoi is at pains to avoid provoking China by putting on military muscle too quickly, or siding openly with the U.S.

http://asia.nikkei.com/Politics-Eco...Vietnam-eyes-secondhand-Japanese-defense-gear
 
I myself don’t know the technical nuances in integrating western and Russian systems. Actually another American member here who probably knows bout it is @Sven... you can try tag and ask him the possibilities.

Depends largely on the individual system. Some like tanks we can add or subtract a new part without needing an extensive overhaul. Some like aircraft will require more intrusive and expensive renovations.

Your T-62 tanks? Sure, in fact the US has a handful of captured T-62s it modernized with American equipment including FCS and radio comms that we use for Opposing Forces exercises.

t62_l6.jpg


Your Kilos? It's possible to overhaul the FCS and other components like engines - they need to fit within the boats dimensions and space constrains and be able to communication with other systems, so the overhaul would be more complex then modernizing a tank, but we can do this too.

Turkey is upgrading a handful of Pakistan's older French submarines.

sub.jpg


Your aircraft like SU-27 or SU-30? Definitely and European and American firms have experience overhauling Russian aircraft with Western Avionics.

Romania contracted an Israeli firm to modernize their MiG-29s into what was called the MiG-29 Sniper, though the program was eventually cancelled due to a lack of funds on the Romanian side.

sniper+A.jpg


Slovakia on the other hand operates MiG-29AS variants that have successfully been outfitted with Western systems:

Slovak Air Force performed an upgrade on their MiG-29/-29UB for NATO compatibility. Work is done by RAC MiG and Western firms, starting from 2005. The aircraft now has navigation and communications systems from Rockwell Collins, an IFF system from BAE Systems, new glass cockpit features multi-function LC displays and digital processors and also fitted to be integrate with Western equipment in the future. However, the armaments of the aircraft remain unchanged. 12 out of 21 of the entire MiG-29 fleet were upgraded and had been delivered as of late February 2008.

The drawback here is that the modernization was done by MiG and not a European firm, but that doesn't need to be the case as noted with the MiG-29 Sniper program.

The S-125 SAMs? Try asking Poland who has modernized their missiles.

Anakonda_2006_Z3.jpg


Would it be easy to integrate a radar, say like the Patriots upgraded AESA into such a S-125 battery or into a system like S-300?

patriot1.jpg


No, the radar has too much to talk too including supporting radars, fire control computers, the missiles themselves and support infrastructure that a complete overhaul would be needed. You can't just plug and play. So not everything is going to be easy or doable on a budget.

We, the US and Europe (and nations outside of these areas like Turkey, Japan or Israel) can overhaul just about anything you have in your inventory and have experience do just that with a multitude of systems you're using. Many, like aircraft or missile batteries, will require extensive modernization or overhauls, not just ripping out a Kilo's FCS and dropping in a new one that can't talk with the rest of the original systems that are still in place. The modernization or overhaul will need to be extensive or thorough.

But we can do it. And we can do it with most, if not all of the weapons or systems you're using with or without Russian help.

To integrate Western and Russian systems, one would require approval from both first.

If you want to be diplomatic, sure, it'd be good to ask the Russians for their help or get their approval. And for Vietnam who still has a strong partnership with Russia, that'd be a prudent course.

But we don't need their help or permission. If a nation can accept the risks, we can go ahead and do the upgrade whether Russia wants us to or not.
 
Very true...and VN is in a much much tougher position than India because of the lack of technical know-how... so to integrate both systems, VN will be totally dependent on both the western and Russian manufacturers...and I doubt any of them will agree to it, for political or security reasons.

ture, nobody trust the Vietnamese Communist Party. They are snakes. They say something today, then change it tomorrow. Never trust these clowns. It's best to wipe them out altogether and replace with the right system and people.

Plus, VCP is so paranoid right now about China so she is purchasing all these outdated/mid-class weapons for defense. Spending billion of dollars on Jets, Subs, etc, are good for surveillance but useless in a real battle. Back in WWII Germany wasn't that stupid to purchase items they have no control over it. They Engineered and Manufactured everything.
 
Last edited:
ture, nobody trust the Vietnamese Communist Party. They are snakes. They say something today, then change it tomorrow. Never trust these clowns. It's best to wipe them out altogether and replace with the right system and people.

I fully agree with your point! Vietnam needs a revolution to wipe out the "snake-alike" VCP!

Just do it!
 
Back
Top Bottom