Vietnam Defence Forum

[dichoi]

You eventually admitted that killing innocent civilians is an inevitable outcome for you special unit in China! Good. I said it already, the more criminals your boys do in China, the harder the revenge we will make.

Manpower and different kind of resources are definitely required for search and hunting the VN units. I made it very clear already in my previous post. But maybe the two countries, China and Vietnam, they have different perceptions on what kind of resource could be called as "heavy resource". Vietnam thinks 4bn $ a year on military is heavy resource, while China thinks 220bn $ a year is heavy resource.

Want to share you some pictures. It's about hunting some terrorist in Xinjiang. Besides police, there were 30,000 ordinary people joining the efforts! They did a carpet-search and successfully caught the terrorists. In case your unit penetrates to China, such things will be seen in Yunnan or Guangxi as well. We don't expect the ordinary people to fight with your superman, but a shout "hey, these VN guys are here", that's more than enough.

View attachment 270950 View attachment 270951 View attachment 270952

Your special unit could bring some damages to us. But they could not bring Vietnam an eventual victory: there is no chance that they never be watched by our people, and a frequent communication between the unit and its HQs in Vietnam will make the unit's position leaked to us as well. We have sufficient money, sufficient resource, and sufficient manpower to hunt them. As this is the last hope of you, so to respect the glory and honor of yours, we don't mind to play a hunting game with your boys.

China is best in human wave tactic.

 

[GS Zhou]

China is best in human wave tactic.

But it's definitely an effective way for tackling with the small units that try to penetrate to China. We don't expect the ordinary people to fight with the VN soldiers, all they need to do is to report the locations.

We nowadays invest heavily on modern warfare, missiles, war planes, warships, satellites, etc. But that doesn't mean we've forgotten Mao's principal of "People's war"

 

[Mokaman]

You eventually admitted that killing innocent civilians is an inevitable outcome for you special unit in China! Good. I said it already, the more criminals your boys do in China, the harder the revenge we will make.

Manpower and different kind of resources are definitely required for search and hunting the VN units. I made it very clear already in my previous post. But maybe the two countries, China and Vietnam, they have different perceptions on what kind of resource could be called as "heavy resource". Vietnam thinks 4bn $ a year on military is heavy resource, while China thinks 220bn $ a year is heavy resource.

Want to share you some pictures. It's about hunting some terrorist in Xinjiang. Besides police, there were 30,000 ordinary people joining the efforts! They did a carpet-search and successfully caught the terrorists. In case your unit penetrates to China, such things will be seen in Yunnan or Guangxi as well. We don't expect the ordinary people to fight with your superman, but a shout "hey, these VN guys are here", that's more than enough.

View attachment 270950 View attachment 270951 View attachment 270952

Your special unit could bring some damages to us. But they could not bring Vietnam an eventual victory: there is no chance that they never be watched by our people, and a frequent communication between the unit and its HQs in Vietnam will make the unit's position leaked to us as well. We have sufficient money, sufficient resource, and sufficient manpower to hunt them. As this is the last hope of you, so to respect the glory and honor of yours, we don't mind to play a hunting game with your boys.

Your idea of hunting special ops units is a joke, that's why you are just a civilian commenting on military tactics. Your Uighurs terrorists in China are armed with hammers and knifes and maybe a pistol for 4-5 guys so not much danger for civilians and police. That tactic was already used by North Vietnamese to hunt American pilots (using every eyes available and spreading flyers & posters...pilots don't want to fight, they want to live and will surrender if find, so it's not much danger for civilians) and but never for hunting an well armed & trained special ops.

We talking of special units of a large army with logistical and communication not a bunch of disorganized thugs armed with knifes with no supplies and no where to go. I don't know if you post those pics as a joke but it's funny. To hunt those units, you need a mobile military forces to pick up communications and track them, not a bunch of villagers with sticks and bricks. You kill a few civilian searchers and it's anarchy & everyone will run for their life ...and after a few dead who going to volunteer searching with a stick for heavily armed enemies later? Maybe you?

 

[GS Zhou]

Your idea of hunting special ops units is a joke, that's why you are just a civilian commenting on military tactics. Your Uighurs terrorists in China are armed with hammers and knifes and maybe a pistol for 4-5 guys so not much danger for civilians and police. That tactic was already used by North Vietnamese to hunt American pilots (using every eyes available and spreading flyers & posters...pilots don't want to fight, they want to live and will surrender if find, so it's not much danger for civilians) and but never for hunting an well armed & trained special ops.

We talking of special units of a large army with logistical and communication not a bunch of disorganized thugs armed with knifes with no supplies and no where to go. I don't know if you post those pics as a joke but it's funny. To hunt those units, you a military mobile forces to pick up communications and track them not a bunch of villagers with sticks and bricks. You kill a couples civilian searchers and it's anarchy ...and after a few dead who going to volunteer searching with a stick for heavily armed enemies later? Maybe you?

Your superman is running without any supplies from Vietnam. No food supply, no medicine supply, no ammunition supply, even the battery shortage for their communication or GPS navigation equipment will become a headache. To get all these stuff from China, there is NO WAY that your superman doesn't leak any clues to the hunters. The more clues they leave, the more precise location information could be got by PLA.

You'd better to pray your superman not killing any civilians during their escape effort:

1. the more civilians they killed, the harder the revenge from China.
2. the location of the dead civilian is a best indicator to tell PLA where your superman is. A large research force with UAVs and helicopters will immediately be sent to the adjacent areas. How far do you think your superman can move in an hour? 5km, 10km, or 20km? They have no choice but to use their own foot. They can steal a vehicle locally, but a vehicle needs to dependent on road. There must be plenty of check points on the key roads/crosses during the war time. They can even kill the people at the check points, but that leaves nothing but a more stronger/clearer location clue!

 

[Mokaman]

Your superman is running without any supplies from Vietnam. No food supply, no medicine supply, no ammunition supply, even the battery shortage for their communication or GPS navigation equipment will become a headache. To get all these stuff from China, there is NO WAY that your superman doesn't leak any clues to the hunters. The more clues they leave, the more precise location information could be got by PLA.

You'd better to pray your superman not killing any civilians during their escape effort:

1. the more civilians they killed, the harder the revenge from China.
2. the location of the dead civilian is a best indicator to tell PLA where your superman is. A large research force with UAVs and helicopters will immediately be sent to the adjacent areas. How far do you think your superman can move in an hour? 5km, 10km, or 20km? They have no choice but to use their own foot. They can steal a vehicle locally, but a vehicle needs to dependent on road. There must be plenty of check points on the key roads/crosses during the war time. They can even kill the people at the check points, but that leaves nothing but a more stronger/clearer location clue!

I think you have no clue how much supplies a recon team bring with them for a mission and probably have zero clue how they get resupplies. And how hard and long it's to get graduated from recon school that teach you survive with zero supply and train to avoid detection for a long period of time. A mission may last a day or a couple weeks and back to Viet Nam for rest & recreation. And you know what, if you kill a civilian or 2 who detect you, well you dig a nice hole and bury them. Maybe after the war, the bodies will be find. Viet Nam have 200-300 000+ missing persons from the Viet Nam war. And you know what, PLA will also use the same tactics and send dozens of recon teams inside Viet Nam, doing the same thing VPA will do in China. Viet Nam will never win a war against China but VPA can surely give a bloody nose to PLA

 

[Viet]

Hey man, I'm talking about the satellites that taking pictures! To throw your bomb on the Chinese target, you at least need to know where it is, right? So for example, an air defense unit of China, Monday morning, it was at 10km eastern to Kunming, but maybe the next morning, this unit has been moved to 20km western to Kunming. To hit this target, you need your satellite to update you the most recent location information of the CN unit. Right? But can the navigation satellite, be it American GPS, or Russian Glonass, take pictures for you?

China today is of course lagging behind US in terms of military technology. But the good news to us is that the gap is becoming SMALLER! We are quickly catching up in almost all areas, stealth fighters, long-distance cruiser missiles, Aegis destroyers, Missile Defense Systems, Anti-satellite technologies, nuclear submarines, AWACS, blabla. Take navigation satellite as the example, we already have our own navigation constellation on the orbit! Currently there are 10+ Chinese Beidou satellites on orbit, sufficient enough to cover Asia. And we will have close 30 Beidous in 2020, which will enable us for a GLOBAL coverage.

how do we know where you are?
well, not a dense system what you have in space, and not so sophisticated, we have 4 satelittes in space:

VINAsat-1 and 2, they are geostationary communications satellites.

VNRED Sat-1, a remote sensing satellite, making high resolution pictures on the ground.

F-1, a experimential satelitte

Vietnam Control Center

satelitte image

 

[GS Zhou]

I think you have no clue how much supplies a recon team bring with them for a mission and probably have zero clue how they get supplies. And how hard and long to get graduated from recon school that teach you survive with zero supply and train to avoid detection a long period of time. A mission may last a day or a couple weeks and back to Viet Nam for rest & recreation. And you know what, if you kill a civilian or 2 who detect you, well you dig a nice hole and bury them. Maybe after the war, the bodies will be find. Viet Nam have 200-300 000+ missing persons from the last war. And you know what, PLA will also use the same tactics and send dozens of recon teams inside Viet Nam, doing the same thing VPA will do in China. Viet Nam will never win a war against China but VPA can surely give a bloody nose to PLA

I don't know the accurate size of the supplies your superman brings. Maybe 50kg per person, or 60kg per person? Or you want me to believe that your superman can take 1-ton supplies per person??

Dig a hole and bury the body. What a clever solution! How about the following? For members of the research team, they each will have own alert zone, and need to report the safety situation to their respective team leaders every 15min or 30min. If any reports missed, a team will be sent out immediately!! Such rule is completely impossible 30 or 40years ago, because for a larger group, e.g. 30,000 people, we couldn't offer each member with a portable communication equipment. But for now, we call the "portable communication equipment" as mobile phones! Before you sending out your message, could you pls just show some basic IQ??

Make blood to us? Yes, you can. I said it already, once Vietnam decides to send special units to penetrate to China, killing civilians will become an inevitable outcome. But, the more criminals your boys do in China, the harder the revenge China would make.

 

[Viet]

I´m posting some events here recently.


Italian President Sergio Mattarella comes for a state visit.

the French surveillance frigate ‘Vendemiaire" arrives the city of Da-Nang for a joint naval exercise.

Sen. Lieut. Gen. Vinh welcomes POW/MIA Accounting Agency (DPAA) Director Michael Linnington in Hanoi.

Vietnam-New Zealand Defence Dialogue took place in Hanoi, with Deputy Secretary of Defence Tony Lynch.

 

[GS Zhou]

how do we know where you are?
well, not a dense system what you have in space, and not so sophisticated, we have 4 satelittes in space:

VINAsat-1 and 2, they are geostationary communications satellites.

VNRED Sat-1, a remote sensing satellite, making high resolution pictures on the ground.

F-1, a experimential satelitte

Vietnam Control Center

satelitte image

thanks for the sharing. And a sincere congratulations to you and to Vietnam! What a great achievement!

Couple of thoughts from my side:

1. For a consecutive coverage, VN needs to have many more satellites on the orbit. That's incredibly expensive. Taxes please!
2. Vietnam should also have more backup for your satellite control centers. Such a large static target is very vulnerable in war time. Taxes please again.
3. Compared to the hardware investment, what's more important is to have sufficient talents to operate these satellite controls centers. So even if the original one was bombed in war time, the back-up crew could still operate the backup centers smoothly. So how about you returning back from Germany and apply for the training program?
4. I don't want to scare you. But how about the following news that almost 10 years old?

China blasted its Fengyun 1-C satellite in a 2007 test

 

[Gen Padmanabhan]

thanks for the sharing. And a sincere congratulations to you and to Vietnam! What a great achievement!

Couple of thoughts from my side:

1. For a consecutive coverage, VN needs to have many more satellites on the orbit. That's incredibly expensive. Taxes please!
2. Vietnam should also have more backup for your satellite control centers. Such a large static target is very vulnerable in war time. Taxes please again.
3. Compared to the hardware investment, what's more important is to have sufficient talents to operate these satellite controls centers. So even if the original one was bombed in war time, the back-up crew could still operate the backup centers smoothly. So how about you returning back from Germany and apply for the training program?
4. I don't want to scare you. But how about the following news that almost 10 years old?

What if Vietnam sign the intelligence sharing agreements with US,Japan and India? Have you consider this?

And what if Vietnam already buying sat imagery from paid services in Canada?

 

[GS Zhou]

What if Vietnam sign the intelligence sharing agreements with US,Japan and India? Have you consider this?

And what if Vietnam already buying sat imagery from paid services in Canada?

That's a likely scenario, and I don't deny the possibility fully. Unlike some VN PDFer on this thread, I never underestimate the capability of a potential opponent.

If you read my previous post carefully, I raised many questions to a potential case of SU30 successfully throws a guided bomb at a high-value target in Kunming. Satellite image is just one of the preconditions. If you don't read my post yet, let me paste it below again.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To maximize the effects of this hightech stuff, there are couple of preconditions you need to fulfill. So please allow me to ask you some questions.

Safety of the airport: before the fighter takes off, you at least need to make sure the airport hasn't been bombed yet, or the damages caused by the bomb has been healed.

Command of the air: this is an aerial bomb. So if you want to use it to hit a target at Kunming, you need to fly through the head of Kunming and throw your bomb on top of the city. Before that, you will be challenged by China Air force J10, J11, or even J20. Even if you survived from the Chinese fighters, you still need to face with the ground units for air defense, e.g. the HQ-series missiles, or the flak. You also need to be cautious to the portable missiles used by infantry units, the VN PDFer @@Mokaman is a strong advocator of this.

A comparison between the two pairs: SU30/bomb vs. H6K/cruise missiles, must be interesting. The long-range cruise missiles (>2,000 km) equipped by H6K means that H6K could even launch the missiles on top of Beijing to hit a target at Hanoi. Zero riks for the H6K pilots!

Information transparency of the battle field: you obviously don't want to waste your valuable bomb at a normal target. An ideal target for your bomb is some high-value things, like air defense missiles units, radar stations, or command HQs. But the question is that these units are changing their locations constantly. So you definitely need battle field transparency! An ideal way for this is that you have your own satellite on top of the battle field. To achieve a 24/7 transparency, you even need to have 10+, or even 20+satellites! Because these satellites are moving constantly, they could only stay above a particular point of the earth for a short period of time. Do you still remember the MH370 tragedy? To find out the plane, China changes the orbits of 21 satellites for day and night research in the South China Sea! But does Vietnam currently has all these necessary hardware for the guided bomb? No. It needs time, and tons of gold. So pay taxes to government.

BTW, want to share you a new toy of China. China recently launched a satellite for taking videos on the orbit. You can click the link below for a short video the CN satellite takes on top of Mexico. Could you understand the military meaning of the video satellite? It means Beijing could even be more clearer about the most recent locations of the VN army units than Hanoi!

There may be a short advertisement before the video, so be a bit patient please.

The new China video satellitte

Training for the pilots: training is a must-have even for the most talented pilot. To hit a CN target accurately, the VN pilots need to do real exercises for many rounds! Maybe 10 times? or 20 times? This brings us three questions:

1. Bomb inventory: do you have sufficient bomb inventory to support the heavy training? Or can you make it on your own? If the answer is NO, pls pay taxes to government to enhance the inventory from imports.
2. Spare parts inventory: the more you fly your SU30, the heavier maintenance required, which will lead to heavier consumption of the spare parts. Do you have sufficient spare parts inventory to support the heavy training program? Do you have the capability to produce the parts? For example, the braking pads of the landing gear, a very basic element, could you produce it on your own? Or you have to dependent on imports? If the answer is the latter, pls pay taxes to your government.
3. SU30 life cycle: the Russian fighters, compared to their western peers, e.g. F15, are born with very short life cycle. Take the SU27 China imported from USSR/Russia in 1990s' as an example, its designed lifecycle is just about 2,000 hours. So if you fly the plane 200hours a year, it could only last for 10years! This used to be an extreme headache for China Airforce, but later we conquered it successfully via:

life cycle enhancement program for the old SU27 fleet. This is not an easy task. It needs the efforts from both aviation industry and material industry. To make it done, you need to be: a) extremely clear of the design principal of the fighters; b) a guru on fatigue mechanics, otherwise you even couldn't know where the weakest point is; c) a guru on high strength/light weighting material. You need to own all the three points mentioned to launch a successful life cycle enhancement program. Does VN have them now? If the answer is no, VN needs to pay heavily to foreign companies for the program. So, pls pay taxes to your government.

J11 localization: compared to the life cycle enhancement of the old fleet, J11 localization is obviously a more fundamental solution! We therefore no longer need to worry about the balance of usage vs. lifecycle. We could fly the birds as heavily as we want! But is Vietnam capable of this? No. So your government needs to pay Russia constantly for the fleet renewal. Again, it is you time for paying taxes!

 

[Mokaman]

I don't know the accurate size of the supplies your superman brings. Maybe 50kg per person, or 60kg per person? Or you want me to believe that your superman can take 1-ton supplies per person??

Dig a hole and bury the body. What a clever solution! How about the following? For members of the research team, they each will have own alert zone, and need to report the safety situation to their respective team leaders every 15min or 30min. If any reports missed, a team will be sent out immediately!! Such rule is completely impossible 30 or 40years ago, because for a larger group, e.g. 30,000 people, we couldn't offer each member with a portable communication equipment. But for now, we call the "portable communication equipment" as mobile phones! Before you sending out your message, could you pls just show some basic IQ??

Make blood to us? Yes, you can. I said it already, once Vietnam decides to send special units to penetrate to China, killing civilians will become an inevitable outcome. But, the more criminals your boys do in China, the harder the revenge China would make.

Killing a CIVILIAN who spot a recon team, I didn't say killing member of a research team. Read my whole post before saying dumb things, you should show some basic IQ. You dont know much because you are a CIVILIAN thinking he is a military strategist

In 1979, plenty VPA recon teams did penetrated China, killing rear units soldiers and sabotage. Why it will different now, China going to nuke Viet Nam and have all south of China with radiations clouds for hundred of years?

 

[Gen Padmanabhan]

That's a likely scenario, and I don't deny the possibility fully. Unlike some VN PDFer on this thread, I never underestimate the capability of a potential opponent.

So, why overestimating the capability of PLA, PLAAF and PLAAN?

Safety of the airport: before the fighter takes off, you at least need to make sure the airport hasn't been bombed yet, or the damages caused by the bomb has been healed.

That is called as "AIR FORCE BASES" aka AFB not airports. And what if AFB getting series of supersonic NLOS-BSM attack?

Command of the air: this is an aerial bomb. So if you want to use it to hit a target at Kunming, you need to fly through the head of Kunming and throw your bomb on top of the city. Before that, you will be challenged by China Air force J10, J11, or even J20. Even if you survived from the Chinese fighters, you still need to face with the ground units for air defense, e.g. the HQ-series missiles, or the flak. You also need to be cautious to the portable missiles used by infantry units, the VN PDFer @@Mokaman is a strong advocator of this.

Why Vietnam going to need to bomb the Kumming with aerial bombs? Why not from NLOS-BSM?

A comparison between the two pairs: SU30/bomb vs. H6K/cruise missiles, must be interesting. The long-range cruise missiles (>2,000 km) equipped by H6K means that H6K could even launch the missiles on top of Beijing to hit a target at Hanoi. Zero riks for the H6K pilots!

Have you considered PGMs? And how much escort need to H6K?

Information transparency of the battle field: you obviously don't want to waste your valuable bomb at a normal target. An ideal target for your bomb is some high-value things, like air defense missiles units, radar stations, or command HQs. But the question is that these units are changing their locations constantly. So you definitely need battle field transparency! An ideal way for this is that you have your own satellite on top of the battle field. To achieve a 24/7 transparency, you even need to have 10+, or even 20+satellites! Because these satellites are moving constantly, they could only stay above a particular point of the earth for a short period of time. Do you still remember the MH370 tragedy? To find out the plane, China changes the orbits of 21 satellites for day and night research in the South China Sea! But does Vietnam currently has all these necessary hardware for the guided bomb? No. It needs time, and tons of gold. So pay taxes to government.

Wrong term, Army fought wars not run democracies. Transparency never exist on battlefields.

21 sats to detect the debris? So, are you going to move your all space based assets in next war with Vietnam?

BTW, want to share you a new toy of China. China recently launched a satellite for taking videos on the orbit. You can click the link below for a short video the CN satellite takes on top of Mexico. Could you understand the military meaning of the video satellite? It means Beijing could even be more clearer about the most recent locations of the VN army units than Hanoi!

Nothing new.

life cycle enhancement program for the old SU27 fleet. This is not an easy task. It needs the efforts from both aviation industry and material industry. To make it done, you need to be: a) extremely clear of the design principal of the fighters; b) a guru on fatigue mechanics, otherwise you even couldn't know where the weakest point is; c) a guru on high strength/light weighting material. You need to own all the three points mentioned to launch a successful life cycle enhancement program. Does VN have them now? If the answer is no, VN needs to pay heavily to foreign companies for the program. So, pls pay taxes to your government.

What if Vietnam give the upgrade contract to Russia, or if they want western avionics then to India? Have you consider this?

J11 localization: compared to the life cycle enhancement of the old fleet, J11 localization is obviously a more fundamental solution! We therefore no longer need to worry about the balance of usage vs. lifecycle. We could fly the birds as heavily as we want! But is Vietnam capable of this? No. So your government needs to pay Russia constantly for the fleet renewal. Again, it is you time for paying taxes!

Check the TTSL of J11 and its jet engine.

 

[GS Zhou]

Killing a CIVILIAN who spot a recon team, I didn't say killing member of a research team. Read my whole post before saying dumb things, you should show some basic IQ. You dont know much because you are a CIVILIAN thinking he is a military strategist

In 1979, plenty VPA recon teams did penetrated China, killing rear units soldiers and sabotage. Why it will different now, China going to nuke Viet Nam and have all south of China with radiations clouds for hundred of years?

For the civilian that blocked your route, like the picture below, kill or not kill?

Even if you kill a passerby, e.g. a kid on his way home to school. There is sufficient ways for PLA to be informed about it in one or two hours: his teacher will learn that one of the student doesn't come to school today, so call the parents for check. Parents will be surprised to get the teacher's call! And they will call PLA immediately. Such thing is hard to imagine 30 or 40 years ago, because no one has portable communication equipment. But nowadays, every one has mobile phones!

Nuclear weapon is a stupid idea. No one likes it. But it won't be too difficult for China to destroy all the key infrastructures of Vietnam for revenge: power plants, the largest and most modern manufacturing plants, telecome centers, bla bla. You really want to lose all the fruits of your past 30years economic development??

 

[Mokaman]

For the civilian that blocked your route, like the picture below, kill or not kill?
View attachment 271010



Even if you kill a passerby, e.g. a kid on his way home to school. There is sufficient ways for PLA to be informed about it in one or two hours: his teacher will learn that one of the student doesn't come to school today, so call the parents for check. Parents will be surprised to get the teacher's call! And they will call PLA immediately. Such thing is hard to imagine 30 or 40 years ago, because no one has portable communication equipment. But nowadays, every one has mobile phones!

Nuclear weapon is a stupid idea. No one likes it. But it won't be too difficult for China to destroy all the key infrastructures of Vietnam for revenge: power plants, the largest and most modern manufacturing plants, telecome centers, bla bla. You really want to lose all the fruits of your past 30years economic development??

During a conflict time, the regions of China-Viet Nam will be a mess and normal will be impossible. It would only need a bomb drop close to a PLA base and you will see people move out or hide inside their houses, most Schools and factories will be close and a lot of people would move out far away from the border. In the chaos, Families will be separated and kids trying to find their parents, that's war. Someone is missing is a normal thing during armed conflict.

When detected, the recon unit would move out back to Viet Nam. To relieve the pressure from PLA pursuing, other recon units in the region will do sabotage to distract the PLA and then themselves get out. It a cat and mouse game.

VPA artillery and missiles can bomb towns and cities close to Viet Nam border too. VPA too have long range arty. Viet Nam may come out destroy but at least they will give a fight