Very concerned with development of Indian navy: Pakistan naval chief

[jaibi]

True, but we need to counter your navy by ours. We have the exact same situation, our navy gets the least from the budget.

Actually, Indian navy gets smallest share in defense budget, IA gets biggest share.

However, IN plans to have 160 ships in coming years and is undergoing modernization.

 

[sancho]

We have the exact same situation, our navy gets the least from the budget.

For good reasons, because both are facing the least ammount of threats. By the lack of any navy in the region that could pose a real threat to India, there is hardly any reason to overfund IN (and still they are operating carriers for decades).
For Pakistan it's even less important, since any war against India would be fought mainly at the vast land borders and the airspace around them. The sea borders play only a minor role and there are hardly useful targets for IN around them anyway. So limited naval assest and shore based aircrafts are still the best coastal defence for Pakistan, rather than a large fleet of ships, that are costly to procure and maintain.

 

[godofwar]

For good reasons, because both are facing the least ammount of threats. By the lack of any navy in the region that could pose a real threat to India, there is hardly any reason to overfund IN (and still they are operating carriers for decades).
For Pakistan it's even less important, since any war against India would be fought mainly at the vast land borders and the airspace around them. The sea borders play only a minor role and there are hardly useful targets for IN around them anyway. So limited naval assest and shore based aircrafts are still the best coastal defence for Pakistan, rather than a large fleet of ships, that are costly to procure and maintain.

Pakistan harbouring ambitions of a blue water navy will signify that it wants to project power away from its shores.
(Pun intended)

This will alienate Pakistan from both of its major sources of military aid- US and China who will not welcome this development.
Hence in a convoluted way, it is in Pakistan's interest not to have a strong navy.


That is the price you have to pay when you are a client state.

 

[Tshering22]

The one has hardly to do with the other, since accidents will always happen, but that doesn't reduce the overall capability. The only field where IN is actually facing a difficult situation is the SSK fleet, but other than that, IN is doing fine.

The overall health of a navy depends on how well are all the arms of the navy performing: surface, underwater, aerial, surveillance and maintenance & logistics.

Our underwater arm is the weakest which is actually supposed to be the trump card for any navy around the world. Quiet attack submarines capable of snooping and launching cruise missiles and torpedoes is what most navies rely on while using surface fleet as a frontal assault; similar to what an infantry is used and a special forces unit is used in a war.

SSN, SSBN, new and far more capable carrier then before, new stealth corvettes, frigates and destroyers, increased range and endurance of operations, high increase of MPA capability by the induction of more P8Is and drones...It's hardly deniable that IN today is at a peak when it comes to capability, that they never had before and that can be troubling for others, seeing IN developing to one of the prime navies in the region. However, PN can't be IN's yardstick and to fight the real naval threat to India, we need even more ASW capabilities (be it air, surface or submerged), so the current peak will be topped for sure.

IN is the most efficient arm in terms of inducting weapons on time compared to the laggard army and the indecisive IAF. But the IN is also slowing down its efficiency. Our submarine fleet is ancient, mate. All of them are running on borrowed time except a couple of upgraded ones that still have some hull life in them.

Till now we have no latest development of Scorpenes apart from hearing the news of 'being developed' or 'delayed by one year'. When are the user trials? When are we inducting? What is the future map about manufacturing them in India with license? What is the integration and training plan for the IN? How many orders other than the total order of 10 replacement subs are we talking? Will 10 planned attack subs and 10 planned Arihants be enough?

No news. Nothing.

Not to mention that our indigenous carrier has been already delayed and that we need to speed up. MiGs are being delivered on time and sometimes ahead of time. If we are not fast enough, we will have a problem using total 45 MiG-29Ks as less than half of that can come on a single carrier. Vikrant II is huge and is slated to pack a bigger punch than any carrier before. Also there has been no news of induction plans, units intended, carrier training and integration of Naval LCA which the IN was keen to get (about 10 from what I remember).

Also, in the aeral arm, where are we in terms of helicopters? IN has rejected the HAL Dhruv for goodness knows what reason despite IA and IAF praising Dhruv and it having proven its mettle. However, the tender to acquire heavy lift utility helicopters for IN is delayed and no news on that.

such kinks and cracks in the IN operational fleet can be a serious crisis at the time of conflict; if we add the gross inefficiencies of IAF and the totally lack-lustre approach of the Army, mind you, we cannot deal with anyone bigger than Pakistan at the most.

And both you and I know that Pakistan is no longer a threat to majorly worry about from military perspective, but someone else is.

 

[sancho]

...No news... Nothing.

So basically your conclusion that IN is not capable is based on the lack of news and not really on the facts of what they are able to do today, compared to the past.
The major problem of the Scorpene (apart from being a bad procurement for India in general), is that we didn't had the industrial capability to build them as fast as we wanted and that we put too much hope on DRDO again, to provide a modern AIP system.
The Kilos as you said are or will be upgraded, which will remain to be the base of our SSK fleet for a long time. They might lack the AIP system, but have land attack capability and latest systems too, so are by far not ancient, but will remain the base of IN's SSK fleet for quiet some time.
And I disagree with you that IN is very efficient compared to other forces, taking the costlier sub without AIP was silly enough, but creating a new competition, instead of simply ordering additional subs of the one in production only delays things. If they had simply ordered 6 more Scorpenes, with shared production between French and Indian production lines, we could field more SSK's faster than we do now.
Similarly, the MRMR, the ASW helicopter, the LDP...competitions, all delayed or re-issued because of IN's vague RFP's and a lack of an idea of what they really want and what is really needed.

But all that just shows, that IN could be even more capable than they already are today! Their surface fleet belongst to the strongest of the world, the reach is improving greatly as well and as soon as Arihant and upgraded ballistic missiles are available, we will have a propper 2nd strike capability against China as well. So they surely are highly capable even today and with the problems they have.

And both you and I know that Pakistan is no longer a threat to majorly worry about from military perspective, but someone else is.

That's what I said and why we need to keep improving the ASW capability, besides the SSN / SSBN capability. But within the Indian Ocean area, IN is able to hold it's own.

 

[IND151]

For good reasons, because both are facing the least ammount of threats. By the lack of any navy in the region that could pose a real threat to India, there is hardly any reason to overfund IN (and still they are operating carriers for decades).
For Pakistan it's even less important, since any war against India would be fought mainly at the vast land borders and the airspace around them. The sea borders play only a minor role and there are hardly useful targets for IN around them anyway. So limited naval assest and shore based aircrafts are still the best coastal defence for Pakistan, rather than a large fleet of ships, that are costly to procure and maintain.

Right explanation.

So basically your conclusion that IN is not capable is based on the lack of news and not really on the facts of what they are able to do today, compared to the past.
The major problem of the Scorpene (apart from being a bad procurement for India in general), is that we didn't had the industrial capability to build them as fast as we wanted and that we put too much hope on DRDO again, to provide a modern AIP system.
The Kilos as you said are or will be upgraded, which will remain to be the base of our SSK fleet for a long time. They might lack the AIP system, but have land attack capability and latest systems too, so are by far not ancient, but will remain the base of IN's SSK fleet for quiet some time.
And I disagree with you that IN is very efficient compared to other forces, taking the costlier sub without AIP was silly enough, but creating a new competition, instead of simply ordering additional subs of the one in production only delays things. If they had simply ordered 6 more Scorpenes, with shared production between French and Indian production lines, we could field more SSK's faster than we do now.
Similarly, the MRMR, the ASW helicopter, the LDP...competitions, all delayed or re-issued because of IN's vague RFP's and a lack of an idea of what they really want and what is really needed.

But all that just shows, that IN could be even more capable than they already are today! Their surface fleet belongst to the strongest of the world, the reach is improving greatly as well and as soon as Arihant and upgraded ballistic missiles are available, we will have a propper 2nd strike capability against China as well. So they surely are highly capable even today and with the problems they have.



That's what I said and why we need to keep improving the ASW capability, besides the SSN / SSBN capability. But within the Indian Ocean area, IN is able to hold it's own.

Is it possible to integrate Nirbhay and Nirbhay 2(with 2,000 KM range) on Scorpions?

 

[farhan_9909]

Rather the Admiral is more concerend about bigger share of naval budget in the defence budget

 

[sancho]

Right explanation.



Is it possible to integrate Nirbhay and Nirbhay 2(with 2,000 KM range) on Scorpions?

If it can be launched via torpedo tubes, yes.