'Very Accurately' Examining Arrest Of Indian In Pakistan, Says Iran

[SQ8]

Difficult to believe.

1. Hypothetically if he were an operative and If he arrested few months before then obviously Indian agencies were aware of it as operatives need to check in at pre-determined times. Any doubts would have lead to lock down and amputation of his wing so that it doesnt infect the other operations.

2. Again if he were an operative with his cover blown since '06 then why the continuous allegations by Pakistan of Indian subversion post '06. Curiously all the major acts of terrorism and killing of civilians and uniformed personnel gained steam from '07. What you are saying directly contradicts reality or he was a triple agent taking ISI for a merry ride for 8 years. I don't believe any agency in the world would be so incompetent so you better re-check your facts.
Everything said with due respect of-course if you find my questions uncomfortable

@Oscar

1. If he was arrested a few months ago, then the wind down must have started already. The only possibility is that he was forced to continue to check in based on the said moles knowing of checks. I see a greyer area where the operative may have been squealing but the ISI did not know of his value until of late.

2. His cover might have been blown after which the double agents could have been fed to him.

Regardless, I am aware of an unrelated episode where the ISI let a certain operative "steal" the secrets to insurgent operations in Kashmir. The agent continued to feed incorrect information for a long time which led to the death of quite a few Indian soldiers in penny ambushes before a more brighter officer in the IA questioned the intel by going to the very top of the command; therby bypassing his immediate superior who was more of a jeeves than a thinker.

As far as espionage is concerned, if the Israelis can execute Wrath of God and the Soviets can have Kim Philby.. I cant support or dismiss any stories.

I knew you would come back with Enigma and Coventry! What happened b/w '06 and '16

- Pakistan economy in shambles
- Thousands dead.
- Gap b/w India and Pakistan greater in all spheres.

Coventry lead to tangible gains which resulted in defeat of Axis powers. What gains have been made from arrest of Mr. Yadav? May be time would prove you right and may be ISI has some diabolical ace up it's sleeve but until proven I will remain sceptical.

I am still at a loss as to how the economy being in shambles (actually began in 08' and is related more to the greater world depression and the thief of thieves Asif Zardari), Thousands dead from the WoT(The dead from terror incidents in Balochistan accounted start from the Bugti killing and dwindles with the reorganization of FC) and finally the Gap between India and Pakistan in anything is at all relevant to this espionage incident?

 

[Iggy]

Oh no, Kulbhushan Jadhev was reportedly "blown" in 2006, he was effectively/passively working for ISI because his informants in Pakistan were infiltrated, even the men he sent to India for training from RAW included ISI operatives, in other words...we know the whole chain of command of this operation as well as its modes operandi. He was arrested a few months before he was released to the public, which i guess was to make up for what you are pointing out to.

Is that means all those alleged attacks by RAW in Pakistan including the attack on Chinese nationals were known to ISI beforehand and they choose not to act upon it?

 

[Spectre]

1. If he was arrested a few months ago, then the wind down must have started already. The only possibility is that he was forced to continue to check in based on the said moles knowing of checks. I see a greyer area where the operative may have been squealing but the ISI did not know of his value until of late.

2. His cover might have been blown after which the double agents could have been fed to him.

Regardless, I am aware of an unrelated episode where the ISI let a certain operative "steal" the secrets to insurgent operations in Kashmir. The agent continued to feed incorrect information for a long time which led to the death of quite a few Indian soldiers in penny ambushes before a more brighter officer in the IA questioned the intel by going to the very top of the command; therby bypassing his immediate superior who was more of a jeeves than a thinker.

As far as espionage is concerned, if the Israelis can execute Wrath of God and the Soviets can have Kim Philby.. I cant support or dismiss any stories.



I am still at a loss as to how the economy being in shambles (actually began in 08' and is related more to the greater world depression and the thief of thieves Asif Zardari), Thousands dead from the WoT(The dead from terror incidents in Balochistan accounted start from the Bugti killing and dwindles with the reorganization of FC) and finally the Gap between India and Pakistan in anything is at all relevant to this espionage incident?

I was addressing the point about Mr. yadav being a double agent or an unknowing patsy for ISI from '06 to '16 which is a very long period. Horus here has claimed that entire Indian network in Pakistan was infiltrated and goes on to say that Yadav unknowingly sent ISI agents to be trained as Raw agent.

Now as I earlier posted you can have one of two things

1. A monstrously effective RAW responsible for APS and countless other acts of terrorism as Horus himself has claimed

2. Incompetent RAW who hasn't actually done anything or ISI which allowed RAW to conduct such terrorism in Pakistan keeping in view the claims that ISI had completely neutralized RAW networks in Pakistan.

I dont buy the enigma and coventry argument because such things have a limit and suffering of Pakistan means if indeed it was the doing of RAW and ISI kept quiet then RAW might as well have won

As for my point about general state of Pakistan - stark difference b.w the highs post WoT from '01 to '05/'06 to lows from '07 to '13 - I admit it was misplaced.

 

[SQ8]

I was addressing the point about Mr. yadav being a double agent or an unknowing patsy for ISI from '06 to '16 which is a very long period. Horus here has claimed that entire Indian network in Pakistan was infiltrated and goes on to say that Yadav unknowingly sent ISI agents to be trained as Raw agent.

Now as I earlier posted you can have one of two things

1. A monstrously effective RAW responsible for APS and countless other acts of terrorism as Horus himself has claimed

2. Incompetent RAW who hasn't actually done anything or ISI which allowed RAW to conduct such terrorism in Pakistan keeping in view the claims that ISI had completely neutralized RAW networks in Pakistan.

I dont buy the enigma and coventry argument because such things have a limit and suffering of Pakistan means if indeed it was the doing of RAW and ISI kept quiet then RAW might as well have won

As for my point about general state of Pakistan - stark difference b.w the highs post WoT from '01 to '05/'06 to lows from '07 to '13 - I admit it was misplaced.

1. Yes you can have this, depends upon the officer assigned and his competence.
2. Yes you can have this, depends upon the officer assigned and his competence.

You are assuming that the implication of RAWs involvement is responsible for all the woes(and I see no statement with that) whereas it does contribute to them but it isnt the root cause.

The rise after WoT was due to influx of aid and consumerism pushed by Musharraf's technocrats. That all fell apart after 08's crash and Zardaris rape of Pakistan. Again, apples and oranges to compare a India with competent economic policies to a Pakistan led by a General with limited ideas and experience followed by a man who is the epitome of the word corruption.

 

[Spectre]

1. Yes you can have this, depends upon the officer assigned and his competence.
2. Yes you can have this, depends upon the officer assigned and his competence.

You are assuming that the implication of RAWs involvement is responsible for all the woes(and I see no statement with that) whereas it does contribute to them but it isnt the root cause.

The rise after WoT was due to influx of aid and consumerism pushed by Musharraf's technocrats. That all fell apart after 08's crash and Zardaris rape of Pakistan. Again, apples and oranges to compare a India with competent economic policies to a Pakistan led by a General with limited ideas and experience followed by a man who is the epitome of the word corruption.

So ultimately it is the case of arbitrary morality. Some punk in ISI HQ says - It is ok if RAW through it's TTP proxies kills 100 children in Peshawar so as to keep the the fiction alive that Yadav's cover is not blown? I am saying this because the prevalent notion in forum among Pakistanis is that RAW was responsible for APS Massacre and if RAW was compromised then ISI must be in the know.

Look mate, I agree anything is possible and may be yeah agencies do operate in silos divorced from shackles of morality and public good but then it makes you wonder what is reason for their existence - To beat RAW? or to save Pakistani life even if it is 1 or 10 or 100. Agencies need to be on a leash and in Pakistan it is particularly problematic because their civilian masters themselves more often then not are compromised and open to exploitation.

 

[SQ8]

So ultimately it is the case of arbitrary morality. Some punk in ISI HQ says - It is ok if RAW through it's TTP proxies kills 100 children in Peshawar so as to keep the the fiction alive that Yadav's cover is not blown? I am saying this because the prevalent notion in forum among Pakistanis is that RAW was responsible for APS Massacre and if RAW was compromised then ISI must be in the know.

Look mate, I agree anything is possible and may be yeah agencies do operate in silos divorced from shackles of morality and public good but then it makes you wonder what is reason for their existence - To beat RAW? or to save Pakistani life even if it is 1 or 10 or 100. Agencies need to be on a leash and in Pakistan it is particularly problematic because their civilian masters themselves more often then not are compromised and open to exploitation.

Again, that has little to do with each other. The prevalent notion has little do with the actual notion or otherwise.
If such an important asset to RAW was compromised, and it afforded me the opportunity to infiltrate its operations while it assumes to be doing damage.. I would not let it go regardless of a 1000 children dead.

First, those children are unrelated to this operation and secondly.. 10000 lives are worth the sacrifice for the longer run of reducing the Indian threat to the overall stability of the state.

What the situation in Pakistan is or is not is irrelevant. Each section has policies and directives, which allude to the state rather than 10 people on a bus. The United States lost thousands of soldiers in Vietnam on what was a lost cause.. the idea was not Vietnam but to stem the communist influence. They got their chance to repay the same in Afghanistan by the mental Jihadist ideology that now roams Iraq,Syria and the world in general. At that time, it was important to the US state regardless of what lies ahead.

We can all say that whatever Pakistan does now will have bad consequences but that is based on us assuming the powers of nostradamus. The same way, we can assume that all India is doing is good...but only history will tell.

 

[Hamza913]

Buddy calm down there is no reason for Iran Pakistan war actually it's the most ridiculous things I've ever heard in my life .. moreover Americans and israielis have changed their minds several times when it comes to war with Iran , while they enjoy the most sophisticated and advance weaponry ....and you brought up a good example , Saddam thought the same way you think that he could defeat Iran in 3 days but at the end of war after 8 years bloodshed for two nations he handed Iran a letter and accepted all Iran requests ...

Saddams mistake was attempting occupation. As long as we don't make that mistake, we would be fine. But still,there is no need for a war.

 

[Spectre]

Again, that has little to do with each other. The prevalent notion has little do with the actual notion or otherwise.
If such an important asset to RAW was compromised, and it afforded me the opportunity to infiltrate its operations while it assumes to be doing damage.. I would not let it go regardless of a 1000 children dead.

First, those children are unrelated to this operation and secondly.. 10000 lives are worth the sacrifice for the longer run of reducing the Indian threat to the overall stability of the state.

What the situation in Pakistan is or is not is irrelevant. Each section has policies and directives, which allude to the state rather than 10 people on a bus. The United States lost thousands of soldiers in Vietnam on what was a lost cause.. the idea was not Vietnam but to stem the communist influence. They got their chance to repay the same in Afghanistan by the mental Jihadist ideology that now roams Iraq,Syria and the world in general. At that time, it was important to the US state regardless of what lies ahead.

We can all say that whatever Pakistan does now will have bad consequences but that is based on us assuming the powers of nostradamus. The same way, we can assume that all India is doing is good...but only history will tell.

1. Perceived threat to overall stability of state. One can argue that the threat is manufactured so that establishment is secure. Security of the country and the powers that be in Pakistan are two very different things.

2. US and others loosing 1000s of lives for an idea - Is that the role model here? First Cold war was not a battle of ideology, it is manoeuvring for influence and resources. Eisenhower warned about dangers of MIC and how it would seek to exploit our fears (in this case threat to American Way of Life) to expand their hold on the America and which is exactly what happened. Most Americans now believe that the Vietnam war was a mistake and a costly one at that.

3. Keeping all that aside - Let's naively assume cause is righteous and noble - the question becomes how far are you willing to go

Neitzsche aptly said Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.

When one is willing to sacrifice innocents on the alter of a cause, may be that cause needs to be looked at. Remember these children are not soldiers who signed up for it.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

So ultimately it is the case of arbitrary morality. Some punk in ISI HQ says - It is ok if RAW through it's TTP proxies kills 100 children in Peshawar so as to keep the the fiction alive that Yadav's cover is not blown? I am saying this because the prevalent notion in forum among Pakistanis is that RAW was responsible for APS Massacre and if RAW was compromised then ISI must be in the know.

Look mate, I agree anything is possible and may be yeah agencies do operate in silos divorced from shackles of morality and public good but then it makes you wonder what is reason for their existence - To beat RAW? or to save Pakistani life even if it is 1 or 10 or 100. Agencies need to be on a leash and in Pakistan it is particularly problematic because their civilian masters themselves more often then not are compromised and open to exploitation.

Kulbhushan Yadav is not a RAW asset

His arrest and subsequent confession did not get any advantage or gain from the
West for Pakistan

The equivalence theory did not work out

 

[Spectre]

Kulbhushan Yadav is not a RAW asset

His arrest and subsequent confession did not get any advantage or gain from the
West for Pakistan

The equivalence theory did not work out

Irrelevant to the argument I was making.

 

[Farah Sohail]

Irrelevant to the argument I was making.

From what I understand from @Horus posts...tht Kulbushan yadav,'cover was blown in 2006.. And unknowingly he was working for ISI as his informants were infiltrated..... Horus did not say tht all of RAW's netwok covers in Pakistan have been blown.. Kulbhushan yadav was a senior ranking official who was running a large network..but tht must not be obviously the only network of RAW in Pakistan... Kulbhushan yadav was operating through Iran/balochistan.... But a huge network of RAW is also operating from Afghanistan..and incidents like APS , were the handwork of afghanistan operation.... So what i am trying to say..is tht even if kulbhusnan yadev cover was blown in 2006, it does not mean tht each and every network of RAW has been blown.... Obviously its a continuous effort.. So, therefore, in my views, ur assumption tht ISI let all these incidents of terrorism happen in Pakistan knowingly just for the sake of infiltration..doesnt make sense...

 

[-blitzkrieg-]

I don't think you enjoy it, that is just sociopathic no one is that bad.
I do think it nurses some people's inferiority complex though.

Anyone comparing themselves to the mistakes of others' past has nothing to show for in the present.



Again your point is moot.
http://www.cnn.com/2016/03/04/us/bird-poop-nuclear-power-shutdown/
Nuclear power plants are sensitive areas and such events are not uncommon all over the world. Specially among countries that have developed power plants. You missed my point in all your bias, that is we are much better than we were in the last century and it is only going to improve.




I did.

2016 Nuclear Security Index is whole another story, India has fared better than pakistan.

A more recognized survey over some unknown think tank anyday.





And why is that?
The underwater features that Nord Stream traverses are as difficult if not more than the one in the Arabian sea. Apart from the ecologically sensitive Flora and fauna, the faults, unstable slopes resulting in slumps or slides, mudflows / mass gravity flows, earthquake or wave induced liquefaction in the shore approach area, mud volcanoes , gas-expulsion features and not to mention the underwater mines if present, though most were destroyed. These make Nord Stream one of the most challenging if not the most challenging pipeline in the world compared to the proposed India-Oman-Iran pipeline. Any mistake and it'll f*** up like 10 different countries in that region.
As for middle of the oceans, Langeled pipeline(almost 1200km) among others are mid sea pipelines.





Janaab, feasibility studies are done.
Iran and India are on the precipice of signing the pipeline deal.
Recent 2016 news.
http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/na...th-iran-for-undersea-gas-pipeline/209087.html

[/QUOTE]

I think i requested you to bump an old thread on that .
Anyways.I have news for you.
India is one of those countries that has so far not been able to successfully separate its civilian nuclear from the Military nuclear facilities. Thats why those accidents are nightmares for the world unlike other countries .BTW nature of accidents also really matter.You cant compare a shutdown of a plant in some country with nuclear theft or leaks happening in your plants.
Also if you consider being a single point above us in those rankings as a great achievement that would be self-delusional. Pakistans program is smaller and started much later, in that context we are the ones showing more improvement but that debate is usless.I could have called that body a self-declared refree but i wouldnt ,its in Indias interest to safeguard its program and pay heed to any think tank and if they dont like it provide a rebuttal instead of calling it farce.

Dude stop quoting your newspapers, we know how much credible they are...Tell us what SAGE (http://www.sage-india.com/) is planning. Where is that feasibility report.So far we dont see any new maps on their website since Pakistans EEZ got extended. You cant compare gulf of finland project where pipelines are close to shores with an open sea pipeline like the proposed iran-oman-india pipeline, DEPTHS MATTER. Useless to argue as long as you dont show me an open sea piepline as far from shore as its going to be in your case.I have some techincal background in the area therefore resorted to debate on this issue but now i feel like closing it heere since you are unable to provide anything convincing.

 

[Curious_Guy]

Defence.pk is starting to loose quality ....there are lots of claims and counter claims ...no quality at all . ...i am very junior member but i will suggest members ( including some seniors ) to read their own posts after typing and then post

 

[Super Falcon]

Rouhani remarks on spy was not positive for pakistan

He again said whenever we come close to pakistan these conspiracy happen

My answer to that stupid is when india provide no worthfull proof on pak you shut your ***,and mouth

But we provide solid proof with india admitting it is his naval officer on duty what he was doing in iran bussiness no country allow its millitary personal during duty any bussines

And iran should know one thing land it has with pakistan fear from that day when all ME countries going to kick ur *** pakistan wont help you neither india

Infact india should u its *** in nuclear summit voting against you

U betray with ur fellow muslims u will get betray from non muslim with interest

 

[Asian.Century]

• Kulbhushan Jadhav, an ex-Naval officer, was arrested last month by Pak

• Pak alleges he entered through Iran, was planning "subversive activities"

So what did Iran has to show to Pakistan, has it finally admitted that Iran lets terrorists use its land to spread terrorism across the region, including Pakistan. What has it 'very accurately' to show now