Using Tejas as a comparison base, evaluate AMCA timeline to be and what is required to make it happe

[SrNair]

A respected professional member in the PDF asked for a useful debate about the possible time line of AMCA ,a fifth generation fighter that is developing by our ADA and influence of the difficulties that we faced during LCA development on it . Members please express your opinion .No trolls please

@Taygibay @PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy

 

[satishkumarcsc]

Well I still think the Engine and Sensor issues are going to hold us back again this time. And if the AMCA was first developed for the navy and then adapted for the airforce then it would be a wise thing or the AMCA Navy and AMCA air force must run as parallel programs.

 

[Skull and Bones]

Honestly speaking, HAL doesn't infuse much confidence after what it did to the IJT Sitara, and the delays with Tejas.

 

[mkb95]

i posted it in amca sticky thread
Update on AMCA



AMCA is another project to develop a medium weight combat aircraft, which having fifth generation capabilities like active sensor and processing systems, internal weapon carriage capability, precision strike capability and invisible to enemy radars. The AMCA work initiated in early 2012 with the estimated project completion time of 2025.

The Indian Navy too joined with the AMCA project with air force and other Indian state owned, Private aviation sectors and electric companies to build and assist the AMCA project. Foreign collaboration also sought for this project, since crucial hardware's like radar and engines comes from abroad only.

The AMCA preliminary design was changed several times, to adopt new model engines, Radar's and long range missiles. Like how the A 10 developed to carry the GAU 8 Avenger cannon. The AMCA also developed to carry multi national equipment's like Missiles, Radar's and Engines.

Currently more than 4000 employers assigned into the AMCA project,where they extracted from ADA, DRDO, HAL and some other leading private companies. The AMCA team identified three major technical works. Which are Thrust vectoring, super cruise Engines, Active radar's and other processing system and the radar absorbent material.

Engine

India asks for a joint development of fifth generation engines with foreign nations. It's reported India might need more than 2000 plus Engines for AMCA. India already has initiated a Engine project named Kaveri. India wants the new engine who powers the AMCA must be based on the Kaveri. In response many foreign nations responded for the Joint Engine development program.





Currently three countries tries to seal the AMCA engine development program. US, France and England offers their known engine companies like General Electric, Snecma and Rolls Royce respectively. GE from America offered engine development based on the F 414 engine, and the Snecma announced the M 88 engine who powers the Rafale and the Rolls Royce also offered the EJ 200 engine for joint development with Kaveri.

As per last known reports, US company General Electric leads in the program. who already supplying F 404 engines for LCA Tejas. GE also set ups manufacturing plants in India to produce aviation engines in India.

Radar

As same like every other fifth generation fighters, The AMCA too hosts superior avionics and sensor suites. The AMCA hosts new generation GaN based AESA for superior detection and performance. Currently there is no fighter jets has GaN based AESA radars. However many ground based radar available with GaN transceiver modules.


Some information's reported that, state owned LRDE is initiated a project to develop a small size air borne X band GaN based AESA radar for AMCA. LRDE already shows a model of AESA radar in last years Aero India exhibition. However the Uttam is not good for fifth generation fighters like AMCA.

It's reported earlier that, India and Israel working for a joint project to develop a GaN based AESA for fighter jets. However due to the importance of the program the information's are highly classified. It's clear the Radar too be a joint venture between either US or Israel.

Sensor

The infrared based systems like IRST, missile warning systems, laser warning system also added internally in the AMCA. The IRST sensors are placed in all sides of the AMCA to provide full angle coverage like in Rafale and F 35. The proposed IRST system is work similar to the F 35's EOTS who shares the information's to friendly units like via the satellite and highly secured data links.

AMCA also comes with self protection jammer system to jam enemy radar guided missiles from both air and ground. electronic counter measure systems to confuse the infrared guided missiles and a radar warning receiver too added to detect enemy radar frequency's.

The Senor suites in AMCA led by the LRDE and BEL which include many private and foreign contributes.

It's Reported the AMCA will be ready by early 2020 or before and HAL starts flying the first flight of fully developed AMCA by 2021. with the initial low rate initial production by 2024. And the air force gets the first AMCA squad by 2025. If all things goes per schedule
source- Life of Soldiers: Update on AMCA

looks bit optimistic.

 

[halupridol]

Honestly speaking, HAL doesn't infuse much confidence after what it did to the IJT Sitara, and the delays with Tejas.

as I wrote somewhere earlier,,,,,its like expecting a matric fail student to get a phd,,,,
Baki lage raho
dpsu zindapaad

 

[Abingdonboy]

A respected professional member in the PDF asked for a useful debate about the possible time line of AMCA ,a fifth generation fighter that is developing by our ADA and influence of the difficulties that we faced during LCA development on it . Members please express your opinion .No trolls please

@Taygibay @PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy

Well there are two different scenerios to consider.

1) A continuation of the LCA project team for the AMCA- would be rather logical but would still be lacking in some areas as the jump between the LCA and AMCA is steep but the ADA/HAL proved themselves to be able to tackle such learning curves. The problem is this would be very time consuming.
2) A collaborative effort with a partner like France ( my prefered option) or Israel. Build on the LCA base but has a mature partner for all the high end electronics and other aspects.

On the AMCA I am rather optimisit. The foundations are solid thanks to the pain incurred during the LCA- institutions are established, infrastructure and supply chains in place. Addtionally, the AMCA project team has already avoided making the same mistake as the LCA's- tieing the LCA and Kaveri engine projects together. This time the AMCA's propulsion will be an off the shelf purchase. With propulsion taken care of the main issues are within the DRDO's skill set- airframe design/fabrication, EW systems, avionics etc. Ideally i would still like to see DRDO tie up with Dassualt or Elbit as an industrial partnership to ensure the highest quality systems were present in her.

It's Reported the AMCA will be ready by early 2020 or before and HAL starts flying the first flight of fully developed AMCA by 2021. with the initial low rate initial production by 2024. And the air force gets the first AMCA squad by 2025. If all things goes per schedule

Haha, absolutely no chance.



My timeline for entering service would be; 2032 for option 1 and 2030 for option 2 with the first prototypes flying by 2027 and 2025 respectively.

Honestly speaking, HAL doesn't infuse much confidence after what it did to the IJT Sitara, and the delays with Tejas.

HAL are not the design entity for the LCA or AMCA- that will be ADA.

 

[Skull and Bones]

as I wrote somewhere earlier,,,,,its like expecting a matric fail student to get a phd,,,,
Baki lage raho
dpsu zindapaad

I failed in class 9, finished MS being among top 10 in a class of 170, and doing PhD now.

Your words hurt my fragile ego.

 

[Taygibay]

LOL That was quick! Kudos SrNair!

I'll drop my starting hypothesis before coming back with an argumented proposition later
so all can get the framework of thought involved.

1- India has a past in designing aircrafts, if less than the top tier.

2- The current base of comparison is then Tejas but also consider how the whole local mil industry has grown.

3- What does an honest assessment of LCA teaches us for the AMCA? Be strict on honest & creative afterwards.

4- The project is yet on the drawing boards. There is ample elbow room to adjust it for better results.



BBS, Tay.

 

[halupridol]

I failed in class 9, finished MS being among top 10 in a class of 170, and doing PhD now.

Your words hurt my fragile ego.

oops,koi nai bhai,,,waise bhi class 9 is not matric,,my point stands

 

[Skull and Bones]

oops,koi nai bhai,,,waise bhi class 9 is not matric,,my point stands

In our times, class 9 and 10 was combined syllabus in matric.

There's no regret, I was a promising cricket player then, but couldn't garnered enough support from parents to continue playing. My mother started beating me from the school, to home, after getting the report card.

 

[Piper]

Well there are two different scenerios to consider.

1) A continuation of the LCA project team for the AMCA- would be rather logical but would still be lacking in some areas as the jump between the LCA and AMCA is steep but the ADA/HAL proved themselves to be able to tackle such learning curves. The problem is this would be very time consuming.
2) A collaborative effort with a partner like France ( my prefered option) or Israel. Build on the LCA base but has a mature partner for all the high end electronics and other aspects.

On the AMCA I am rather optimisit. The foundations are solid thanks to the pain incurred during the LCA- institutions are established, infrastructure and supply chains in place. Addtionally, the AMCA project team has already avoided making the same mistake as the LCA's- tieing the LCA and Kaveri engine projects together. This time the AMCA's propulsion will be an off the shelf purchase. With propulsion taken care of the main issues are within the DRDO's skill set- airframe design/fabrication, EW systems, avionics etc. Ideally i would still like to see DRDO tie up with Dassualt or Elbit as an industrial partnership to ensure the highest quality systems were present in her.



Haha, absolutely no chance.



My timeline for entering service would be; 2032 for option 1 and 2030 for option 2 with the first prototypes flying by 2027 and 2025 respectively.


HAL are not the design entity for the LCA or AMCA- that will be ADA.

Has the design be frozen?

If so what is the cost estimate for the program and production cost per unit?

It is unlikely France would offer substantial help in AMCA as it will cut into their future Rafale orders, in absence of AMCA India would compelled to go for further order of Rafales to bridge the gap left by retirement of Mirages and Jaguars. Just good business really. Of-course they would have been interested if India had gone for French propulsion but AFAIK GE bagged that. Designing worth a consultancy fees of few hundred million euro or avionics comprising of ~10% of total cost is not worth undercutting one's own product.

I am sure French Members would agree on this.

If India needs help then Americans would be more interested and further they can transfer some exclusive but non stealth tech from F-35 provided right and substantial incentive is given.

 

[sathya]

A single component or a issue can delay a project for a long time. (Stealth)

It also depends on how much overseas help we got for tejas , that we need it again.

Even though building blocks are in place, still AMCA will be technologically complex to develop

My wild guess is

---> 8-10 years for a twin engine 4th generation fighter .
---> 12-16 years for a 5th gen fighter.


People in industry like ADA and HAL can predict better.

 

[knight11]

Honestly speaking, HAL doesn't infuse much confidence after what it did to the IJT Sitara, and the delays with Tejas.

IJT Sitara was developed by HAL and LCA tejas was developed by ADA

 

[Pandora]

To be honest after LCA india should start and Medium Combat Aircraft leading to a heavy fighter in lines with SU 35. Jumping the gun is always a failure. A joint venture will help a lot and India should take deal of Pak Fa and use it on AMCA to finish it off in next 5-10 years as who knows given current pace of technological evolution stealth will become obsolete soon so pick up the pace or aim for something beyond in fringe science.

 

[knight11]

Has the design be frozen?

AMCA is in premilinary design phase, so how could design be frozen in this stage.

If so what is the cost estimate for the program and production cost per unit?

ADA is asking for 4 Billion or 25000 Crore Rupees for the development, and prototype building and the period of 15 years for IAF but the value could vary with the change in the currency value. However its high time when IN should take decision, and if she have interest, the N-AMCA prototype should be developed first.

At this stage per unit cost could not be calculated.

It is unlikely France would offer substantial help in AMCA as it will cut into their future Rafale orders, in absence of AMCA India would compelled to go for further order of Rafales to bridge the gap left by retirement of Mirages and Jaguars. Just good business really. Of-course they would have been interested if India had gone for French propulsion but AFAIK GE bagged that. Designing worth a consultancy fees of few hundred million euro or avionics comprising of ~10% of total cost is not worth undercutting one's own product.

Why would ADA need the help of Dassault, when she don't have any 5th Gen fighter plane plan. What ADA would need the help is with the GE for its F414 INS EPE engine. How could AMCA cut the future Rafale order, when the AMCA is 15 year to be ready, and both are apples and oranges with the difference of whole 1 generation. French don't have any comparatively propulsion at the moment, and I am highly optimistic for the GTRE to complete the Kaveri project by 2024 and if everything goes well than Kaveri-2 could be launched but 414 EPE is the safe bet at the moment for the AMCA. For the Avionics its the BEL/Cassidian which is likely to get orders and consultancy for the development of LRUs and the EW Suites, with few sensors from SAAB tech.

I am sure French Members would agree on this.

French members would agree on this


And for the US help, ADA is designing AMCA not F-35