USAF chief successfully completes flying sortie in LCA Tejas

[amardeep mishra]

With 3 external tanks, the LCA's range is 3000Km. With the current configuration with only 2 tanks, because the airframe is overweight and not fully optimised, it is 2600Km. With no tanks, it is 1750Km.

And I find it really funny that you are actually disputing this.

You're wasting my time. The pib link you shared doesn't mention anything regarding drop tank or not. And secondly if the ferry range was similar to let's say F16, then IAF wouldn't be complaining at all. An aircraft that has ferry range similar to F16 should satisfy IAF(in terms or range and endurance). But unfortunately that's not the case. And please, just because a lot of ignorant souls believe the numbers , doesn't mean it is a "fact".

Numbers never lie.

Have you read any books on aerodynamics?

 

[randomradio]

You're wasting my time. The pib link you shared doesn't mention anything regarding drop tank or not. And secondly if the ferry range was similar to let's say F16, then IAF wouldn't be complaining at all. An aircraft that has ferry range similar to F16 should satisfy IAF(in terms or range and endurance). But unfortunately that's not the case. And please, just because a lot of ignorant souls believe the numbers , doesn't mean it is a "fact".

Then riddle me this:
The Gripen C weighs 6.5T, has 2.3T of fuel and has a basic range of 1600Km.
The JF-17 weighs 6.5T, has 2.3T of fuel and has a basic range of 1800Km.
The LCA Mk1 weighs 6.5T, has 2.4T of fuel and can't have a basic range of 1700Km?

So what do you think is the LCA's range on internal fuel?

Have you read any books on aerodynamics?

I have. But it's really hard to take someone seriously when they are happily denying common sense and logic.

I'd like a source.
HAL is known to share the worst case number, but I think that 1700km is the combat range, that is two drop tanks plus five armaments.
This is the most likely scenario imo.

The basic range of a Mig-29A on internal fuel is 1450Km.
The basic range of a Mig-21 on internal fuel is 1500Km.

So why is it so hard to believe the basic range of the LCA Mk1 is 1700Km?

 

[amardeep mishra]

The basic range of a Mig-29A on internal fuel is 1450Km.
The basic range of a Mig-21 on internal fuel is 1500Km.

Kindly go and first read about the aerodynamics of delta planform and then cranked double delta and we'll discuss it then. Thanks.
Ps- don't forget to read about their drag profile in particular and compare that against a blended fuselage.

 

[randomradio]

Kindly go and first read about the aerodynamics of delta planform and then cranked double delta and we'll discuss it then. Thanks.
Ps- don't forget to read about their drag profile in particular and compare that against a blended fuselage.

You still haven't replied to what really matters.

Let me tell you what I think. All you have done is read some books about aerodynamics which pretty much simplifies everything. You really have no hands on experience with actual aircraft design and development. Hell, you haven't even read enough wiki specs, forget actual specs of aircraft.

The fact is aircraft designs aren't as simple as, "Hey, look, the F-16 is a cropped delta, LCA is a compound delta, so LCA has an inferior airframe simply because of the differences between the 'cropped' and 'compound'".

You don't realize that aircraft designs are highly specific and you won't find those answers in textbooks. If we did, then we wouldn't have DACT or comparative trials, we will simply look at the wing, thrust etc and then simply buy what we want.

LCA, Gripen, F-16, M-2000, JF-17, and J-10, they all have pretty much the same range on internal fuel. That's how they were designed from the ground up.

F-16 and LCA have very similar range. Go figure.

You have far too much left to learn.

What's funny is this is the first time I've heard someone say a tailed delta has lower drag than a tailless delta.

@amardeep mishra

This is from an Indian fighter pilot.

LCA empty weight is 6500kgs as on date. Its normal take off weight with 2.4tons of fuel+all seven pylons fitted+two R-73s+oil and hydraulic fluids loaded is 9500kgs. That gave it a payload of 3.6tons at an MTOW of 13.2 tons.

Each pylon weighs about 30-35 kgs, each R-73 is 110 kgs, Pilot is calculated at 90kgs, gun ammo is another 100kgs. The oils and hyd fluids take another 100-120 kgs.
With weight reduction, LCA will weigh 9200kgs with 2xR-77s+2xI DerbyER+2xR-73s.
The Rafale nose dia is 55cms while LCA is over 70Cms. So you can well imagine what range its GaN AESA will have and with large amount of composite structure, you can expect a much reduced RCS. Infact it has the lowest RCS of any comparable 4.5 gen aircraft in clean configuration.

I am still waiting for news on two additional pylons on the intakes, MER on centre pylon for two BVRAAMs, Uprated F404 and increased internal fuel capacity.
Clean LCA in present one ton extra weight has a ferry range of about 1700 kms. If we add 2x1200ltrs D/Ts to it, we get about 2 tons of additional fuel. @50% efficiency for D/Ts its equal to one ton internally at cruise altitude which translates to 50% increase in range. The Ferry range with two 1200 ltr D/Ts will therefore be 2550kms. taking 40% of it as combat radius for A2A mission will give LCA ability to escort Jags and M2K up to a radius of nearly 1000kms in Hi-HI-HI profile which is about 540 NMs. this is good enough to cover whole of Pakistan.

LCA has a capacity of 2.4 tons. take out 500 kgs for start up, taxi, take off and landing circuit with 200 kgs as reserve. We are than left with 1900 kgs which gives it a range of 1700 kms or approx. 0.9 km/kg of fuel.

 

[amardeep mishra]

Clean LCA in present one ton extra weight has a ferry range of about 1700 kms. If we add 2x1200ltrs D/Ts to it, we get about 2 tons of additional fuel. @50% efficiency for D/Ts its equal to one ton internally at cruise altitude which translates to 50% increase in range. The Ferry range with two 1200 ltr D/Ts will therefore be 2550kms. taking 40% of it as combat radius for A2A mission will give LCA ability to escort Jags and M2K up to a radius of nearly 1000kms in Hi-HI-HI profile which is about 540 NMs. this is good enough to

Hi @randomradio
I don't need to really specify what I've read or what I've not or what my qualification is. In case you're wondering , you can find me at github and Facebook. Enough to say I've had the opportunity to study in some of the best institutes of our country- Btech(NIT trichy), Direct PhD(IIT Madras).
Also when you're quoting sources, in case of this fighter pilot,please quote the source with reference-link etc. And name of the pilot. Such "unreferenced" quotations are often quoted in our paid mmedia as well to malign LCA.

What's funny is this is the first time I've heard someone say a tailed delta has lower drag than a tailless delta.

No that's not what I said, I'm saying is, a tailess double delta is certainly going to have higher drag than a blended fuselage design in subsonic regime.

 

[randomradio]

Hi @randomradio
I don't need to really specify what I've read or what I've not or what my qualification is. In case you're wondering , you can find me at github and Facebook. Enough to say I've had the opportunity to study in some of the best institutes of our country- Btech(NIT trichy), Direct PhD(IIT Madras).
Also when you're quoting sources, in case of this fighter pilot,please quote the source with reference-link etc. And name of the pilot. Such "unreferenced" quotations are often quoted in our paid mmedia as well to malign LCA.

The quote is from a carrier pilot from the Indian Navy. He is a member of other Indian forums. I can't name them here since it will be deleted anyway.

Here's one more recent quote from him.
I was the ORO-Operations Room Officer who launched the first Tu-142M sortie for Operation Cactus on 04 Nov 1988 from Goa. I was medically down due to injuries suffered after my first ejection over sea from Kiran aircraft and my right arm was in sling due to 17 stitches. So I was called to set up the ORO at around 11 am on that day and from there on we followed the govt orders. The crew of TU-142m was readily available as it was a working day and they manned the aircraft by 1200hrs and were ready to launch. The launch orders were received at 1330 hrs on that day and the aircraft took off at 1400 hrs as it takes nearly 30 minutes to start and stabilise the engines of Tu-142M and also for Taxi and take off. It was this Tu-142M which cleared the way for The 50th Brigade guys to land at Hulele Airport. In the Discovery channel program called "Special Ops-India", Gp. Capt. G G Bewoor talks of his no-2 Gill. He was with me in Jet Airways. And we met for the first time in jet Airways and he always wondered who this guy was from Goa on HF talking to him and the formation leader. In his opinion IN had only useless ship based controllers manning the RT.

It's easier to just Google search a part of the quoted text. In a day or two, this quote should become available on Google search.

No that's not what I said, I'm saying is, a tailess double delta is certainly going to have higher drag than a blended fuselage design in subsonic regime.

There are far too many variables that go into aircraft design than simply calling out the planform. Facts have always spoken louder than words.