US violates int’l laws; moves USS Enterprise into Pakistani water.

[lem34]

SC might it be possible China sell/give a few aircraft killers. We need 2 for India and at the moment 1 for Americans. Maybe we can test how effective they are for you.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

i do agree with Sino on that --though it would needlessly bring more un-necessary attention on ''evil Pakistans'' global ambitions and it puts us in israeli-cross hairs at a time when we have enough on our plate (for now)

 

[Banglar Lathial]

Civilian planes do not have the payload to carry something as large as a HQ-16 SAM mobile launcher. Disassembling is not recommended if you want things to work properly.

Civilian planes like Boeing 777 (operated by China Eastern Airline's cargo division, I think), for example, could transport about a payload of 100 tonnes. That's just one case, I think there could be many more.

By the way, why is disassembling of mobile SAMs not recommended?

China has not traditionally been projecting power beyond its border. All logistical needs are taken care of by rail and road internally. Within China, we can deploy massive armor divisions using our high-speed railways.

China's >50 ton heavy transport Y-20 will be in service next year. Right now we have two prototypes. We prefer not to buy if we can make it ourselves.

I hope that Y-20 is a success.

 

[Haseebullah]

What's the range of the DF-21 again?It slipped my mind!

 

[Penguin]

Isn't it time this thread gets shut down? It is so far off topic it isn't recognizable as a navy thread.

 

[Mav3rick]

You are welcome.

We have established nothing on this point. My point is that deception and lack of information from Pakistani leadership (Military and Civilian) have given rise to speculations in this aspect. Simple.

And I agree. But the US counterparts have provided us enough hints on the matter, don't you think?

You think that only ISI knows how to identify a terrorist? CIA does not knows it work?

Ofcourse they can, however, can they invest in each and every potential target? And even more importantly, do they care? Most importantly, if one of the missions of CIA is to keep Pakistan destabilized enough in these parts don't you think they would be targeting innocent civilians more for resultant backlash on Pakistan?

I concur with the objective of prevention of Anti-Pakistani missions and activities. However, I believe that we have played too much in to the hands of the politics of the superpowers concerning Afghanistan during the COLD WAR era. We have played a major part in radicalising this nation. And now it is highly unstable.

Stable and friendly Afghanistan is/should be our ultimate objective. But for this, we need to broaden are strategic mission and think beyond just Taliban.

I am sure we are on the right path, we would have learned from the 80's after all. But I also believe that since PakMil has such a long history with Talibaan, they would work their way for stabilization of Afghanistan through the Talibaan.

Radicalization, in Afghanistan, can eventually be eliminated with education in western technology & also on Islam. It cannot, however, be eliminated with coercion and it cannot be eliminated in a matter of years when it has been allowed to foster for so many decades. It will take time and a lot of resources, support and understanding from the international community.

The world has to realize the challenges that we face because it can simply walk away, like the US did in late 80's but we have to face the music. It has to realize that we need support too. Too long we have been neglected after the Soviet withdrawal to bear the brunt of refugees and a nation torn by war & infighting.

Yes, this is one issue that I also acknowledge. However, Musharraf did send a delegation to Afghan Taliban to convince it to hand over Osama Bin Laden to us (Pakistan). This delegation came back empty handed. Afghan Taliban failed to realize the gravity of the circumstances right after 9/11 event, which angered Bush administration and it was running short on patience. For Afghan Taliban, quick decision-making would have helped.

There was another problem, the US administration in her arrogance failed to understand the culture and the spirit of the region. Perhaps, we also failed the US Government in the task as we were looking to save our own skin instead of trying to reason with the Super Power about the way things are done in Afghanistan. Every nation protects her heritage and it was in Afghan heritage to provide protection to their guest unless explicit proof was provided of the wrong doing, in which case the protection is withdrawn and the criminal exiled. The US, too, failed to provide any proof.

Perhaps, in the west, everything played out as planned.....almost to perfection, for the first couple of years.

Your point is valid. However, I am skeptical about the assumption that majority of the Afghans support Afghan Taliban now. Narrow down your focus on just the Pashtun populace and you will be fooled. Afghanistan is actually split between Pro-Taliban and Anti-Taliban elements. Therefore, the only viable solution is settlement between both of these elements for peace.

I guess this is one argument, the result to which will be revealed in a couple of years . But Pakistan must find a way of peace and stability in Afghanistan with a pro Pakistan Government that ensures Indian consulates are not misused for anti Pakistan activities.

I acknowledge that US should consider our concerns vis-a-vis Afghanistan. But we need to look at the other side of the coin as well.

Read following:

• The haqqani network represents a strategic threat to the enduring stability of the afghan state and U.S. national security interests in the region. The haqqanis are currently afghanistan’s most capable and potent insurgent group, and they continue to maintain close operational and strategic ties with al-qaeda and their affiliates. These ties will likely deepen in the future.
  
• Unlike the quetta Shura taliban in southern afghanistan, the counterinsurgency campaign has not weakened the Haqqanis’ military capabilities significantly. Few of the “surge” resources deployed to their strongholds in eastern afghanistan. the haqqani network has increased its operational reach and jihadist credentials over the past several years. the haqqani network has expanded its reach toward the quetta Shura taliban’s historical strongholds in southern afghanistan, the areas surrounding kabul, as well as the afghan north.
  
• The haqqanis serve Pakistan’s interests by dominating key terrain along the border and beyond in Afghanistan’s south and east, serving as a Pakistani-influenced “firewall” against national, northern, U.S. and Indian influence. The Haqqanis would also serve Pakistan’s interests by being the primary influence in afghanistan’s Ghilzai Pashtun lands, as well as the tribal areas in north waziristan, organizing these tribal areas in ways consistent with Pakistan’s interests.
  
• The haqqanis execute spectacular attacks in kabul in order to generate a disproportionate psychological and propaganda effect. The Haqqanis have strengthened their presence in logar and Wardak, surrounding the southern and western approaches to kabul. they have also expanded into kabul’s eastern approachs in the provinces of nangarhar, Lahgman, and kapisa. the network will use these positions to increase their destabilizing attacks in kabul.
  
• The haqqanis are ideologically committed insurgents, and they are increasing their territorial reach. The group also has ties to al-qaeda and its affiliates. The Haqqanis have never given any indication that breaking ties with al-qaeda was either possible or in their interests. Consequently, the Haqqani Network is not reconcilable. they also do not fully follow the guidance of the quetta Shura taliban, because they maintain a separate power base and leadership structure.

Now you understand the problem?

By supporting Afghan Taliban movement, we have made some enemies in Afghanistan. These enemies are in power since 2001, and it does not surprises me if these enemies have/are engaged in Anti-Pakistani activities to give us a message. But these enemies are still open to reconciliation. Problem is with the Haqqani network which is not open to reconciliation. Therefore, we need to factor-in the concerns of every stakeholder in Afghanistan and be ready to make some concessions if required to do so. US may leave Afghanistan in 2014 but it has made it clear that it will continue to play its role in Afghanistan this time unlike USSR which left and did not looked back. Therefore, we are dealing with a committed superpower now which also happens to be the victor of the COLD WAR. So we need to calculate our options carefully.

I don't know where you picked up the points from but they most obviously discount something. Haqqanis, along with other 'Talibaan', excluding foreign proxies such as TTP etc. are all following Mullah Omer and he is open to conditional negotiations. Withdrawal of support for puppet Government in Afghanistan and withdrawal of foreign troops are amongst the most important of his conditions. The US wants to negotiate on these conditions and is twisting Pakistan's arms to use our influence on Mullah Omer to eventually bring him to the negotiations.

It will be a matter of give and take for all but since Afghanistan & Pakistan have suffered more and it is the pride of the super power at stake, the negotiations should be mostly in our favour. Especially now that our ally is throwing all kinds of bones to our neighbour while we have suffered humiliation and sanctions despite our contribution in this American war. Have we not sacrificed more then the American nation every which way and that too because of American decision to wage war?

Good point. But our current leadership (Military and Civilian) is not doing a good job at reasoning with the ally and your point supports my argument that we suck at deals. Our current leadership (Military in particular) is supporting a militant network which is not willing to reconcile with US. The greatest concern of US is that this network has not even denounced support to al-Qaeda network and US does not wants Afghanistan to become a staging ground for terrorist activities worldwide once again. At least, Musharraf had managed these affairs in a much better manner then Kayani.

Quite frankly, I do not understand what the current military leadership is doing.....One the one hand, they make statements that drone strikes will not be tolerated and that drones will be shot down and 1 month later, drone strikes resume unchallenged. So what changed in between? I am certain that there are matters that are not revealed to the public, especially matters in which our leadership sells our dignity and sovereignty.

Agreed.

Therefore, this validates my point that competency is lacking in the matters of foreign affairs in case of Pakistan.

I am sure that our 'ally' did not forward any formal requests, rather we received orders and decided to obey them verbatim.

Yes. But is this the path that Pakistani leadership (Military and Civilian) should choose to adopt?

Hell NO! But that does not mean we accept gang rape. There has to be a point where we make a stand. Denying drones access to our air space should be the beginning of this stand unless the attacks require clearance from our side.

It is not my POV. Taliban demonstrated its potential first and then ISI stepped in.

Yes, I am not disputing that. But ISI made Talibaan what it became, before that it was no potent force.

And your assumption is based on conspiracy theories? US used to be a very open country prior to 9/11 event. Their were no stringent security systems and mechanisms in place. US was regarded as a land of opportunities due to its openness to foreigners prior to 9/11. The al-Qaeda network used this to its advantage and conducted sophisticated attacks. Of course, one former US military official of Muslim origin (M. Atta) was involved in this mission to ensure its success.

Thanks to 9/11, US have become a lot less hospitable place to visit.

The US has never been hospitable to Muslims but it was always their right to do as they pleased. You are confusing America of the early 50's to late 80's. One can even find messages in movies of how fundamentally biased they are especially concerning Muslims. Their cold war bogeyman was Soviet Union, and since then it has been Muslims. It is a known a valid question that USAF was aware that Passenger Aircraft had deviated from their original flight paths. No effort was made to shoot down any of these planes. The most important factor on 9/11 was the spectacular collapse of the buildings instead of tilting on the sides they were hit. But as we both have different opinions on the matter........

You are comparing a civilized society like China with fundamentalists?

The difference between the two is that you cannot reason with a fundamentalist.

And infiltration of RAW/CIA/MOSSAD/KGB have occurred in Pakistan regardless of our alliance with some Taliban factions.

Civilized or uncivilized, an ally is an ally. If you are looking for an honest answer to this part of the post, find out how many suicide attacks occurred in Pakistan while Talibaan were in power in Afghanistan.

So you realize this? Stability cannot be achieved with fundamentalism. It can be achieved with reconciliation, development and investment.

Would you call the rule of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) to be fundamental? Would you consider the same for the rule of Caliphs (PBUT)? What is fundamentalism in Islam, and Shariat rule is what the Talibaan wanted to implement, right? The west has a problem with it, why do you?

Read this: The Complicated Relationship Between the Afghan and Pakistani Taliban | Combating Terrorism Center at West Point

All of these Taliban factions are making a fool out of us. And gullible Pakistani fall for their ruse easily. TTP gets its recruits from Pakistan too and operates in same regions. Do the math.

My post was quite simple, TTP has been denounced by Talibaan. They are foreign proxies fighting PakMil with the help of RAW/CIA.

Yes. And we are failing in our duties.

Yes, we are. But with so much going on and so little dedication from the leadership, what else can you expect?

You trust this Finance ministry?

Even if we get ample funds, they will be still mismanaged.

Trust as in, would it be competent enough to project losses incurred and even those that my yet be incurred, yes I think they are. And yes, funds will be mismanaged, but they should still be provided.

And source of your information is?

Official Government figures that have appeared in dailies from time to time.

This is not my thinking. This is a fact that many Pakistani fail to acknowledge. Our lobby is insignificant and our engagements are mostly limited to diplomatic levels. Their is no reasonable cultural engagement between the two countries. Many Americans do not understand the situation of Pakistan properly.

Just watch this excellent interview:

I have to admit I did not watch the video as I am at work and I have to state, that I still stand by my point.

You still fail to realize the truth.

Following are the fruits of this militancy culture:

1. Afghanistan became a staging ground for foreign terrorists
2. Birth of TTP
3. Lawlessness in Tribal regions
4. WOT

This militancy culture has led us to the current mess. Reason is that militancy will spread, if not kept in check. And this is exactly what has happened. It began to spread its tentacles worldwide and 9/11 and many other terrorist attacks happened due to this. And when we took measures against militancy, we witnessed another tentacle in the form of rise of TTP.

Militancy cannot exist peacefully. Once its purpose is served, it finds another one to fight for.

It is you, actually, my friend who has failed to understand.

1. Talibaan were never terrorists, neither are they terrorists today.
2. Was an eventuality that would have happened anyway as anti Pakistan elements found roots in Afghanistan.
3. Tribal regions have always had their own laws and own culture.
4. is actually War Of Terror!

Fighting for freedom, fighting to defeat invading forces are actually acts of heroes. You are confusing heroes with the villains in TTP & invading forces. Violence begets violence. So these external forces are learning. If only we could help Talibaan as we did in the 80's.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

*

Gwadar is brought up all the time as a perfect base for Chinese Navy. Can somebody tell the Chinese to please bring their own water bottles with them because along with electric loadshedding in Gwadar apparently we have also run out of water !!!

"Gwadar risks becoming ghost town due to water shortage"


Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

And these jokers think we can take on [ or should ] USA and the entire NATO or otherwise the entire Western world. We are not China [ rising superpower ] that went nuclear in 1964 when had not even learnt to spell that word. We are not North Korea either. ever seen the North Korean Army on drill? Koreans are a very hard working homogenous and disciplined nation as can be seen by the success of South Korea.

And nuclear weapons are not for offensive purpose but to used in defence and only as a absolute last resort because they will invite nuclear retaliation. Such a exchange with USA would still leave USA unharmed but there would be no Pakistan left after US retaliation.

Don't people realize any attack on Bahrain, Qatar or Saudia Arabia [ US bases ) would mean millions of dead Pakistani ex pat workers and the so called 'Arab brothers'.

All that for knocking out couple of thousand Yanks !!!

 

[sur]

Ron Paul warns of "a ship going down" false-flag or something to start another war... minutes 1:10+ & 1:40+


Ron Paul Warns of False Flag Attack - YouTube

A cruise missile might as well hit their ship, but it won't be Babur, rather it would be Tomahawk painted with a Pakistani False-Flag
=
It's frequently observed phenomena now that they depict scenarios similar to their planned actions in movies. Not sure what they achieve from doing so, but a guess is that it is to mat down the knee-jerk-reaction of masses. To remove the apprehension associated with "experiencing something for the first time".

Like they showed "Lone Gunman" just few months prior to actually slamming remote-controlled planes into WTCs for real,,, Like they showed "Head of State" before bringing Black president into place,,, Like "Broken Arrow" like incident has been speculated to have occurred when that B52 that "accidentally" flew with 6 nukes & returned with one less(five), & 6-7 crew working at the 2 of involved bases are confirmed to have died in "accidents"... Like Aaron Russo was told 1st hand by one of Rockefellers, 8 months prior, about plans to invade Afghan...
=
cruise missile 00:50+ === alleged at Pakistan 01:45+
=
Submarine commander said at the end of movie trailer, "Test us and we will ALL burn together. You have been warned" ...
Last Resort Trailer - YouTube

 

[Joe Shearer]

US violates int


Karachi: After failing to strike a deal on Nato supply with Pakistan, violating international laws the US has moved its USS Enterprise, the nuclear-powered aircraft carrier, into Pakistani territorial waters near Gawadar city of Balochistan province.
“After the deployment of the aircraft in Pakistani sea the country’s security agencies are now investing into the matter. The movement apparently shows the increasing interest of the US in Balochistan province of Pakistan,” sources said.
“The US has moved its biggest aircraft carrier 65 to 70 nautical miles away from Gawadar in the second week of June,” a well informed source told The News Tribe correspondent.
The USS Enterprise, which holds a crew of over 4,000, had taken part in several wars.

This is silly. A point 65 to 70 nautical miles from the coast is within the economic zone, not within territorial waters. Unless the Enterprise has decided to catch fresh fish for crew meals using a carrier-sized net, there is nothing to crib about.

 

[regular]

Isn't it time this thread gets shut down? It is so far off topic it isn't recognizable as a navy thread.

I guess this thread needs to be moved outta here to some other formidable place........

 

[Mav3rick]

*

Gwadar is brought up all the time as a perfect base for Chinese Navy. Can somebody tell the Chinese to please bring their own water bottles with them because along with electric loadshedding in Gwadar apparently we have also run out of water !!!

"Gwadar risks becoming ghost town due to water shortage"


Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

And these jokers think we can take on [ or should ] USA and the entire NATO or otherwise the entire Western world. We are not China [ rising superpower ] that went nuclear in 1964 when had not even learnt to spell that word. We are not North Korea either. ever seen the North Korean Army on drill? Koreans are a very hard working homogenous and disciplined nation as can be seen by the success of South Korea.

And nuclear weapons are not for offensive purpose but to used in defence and only as a absolute last resort because they will invite nuclear retaliation. Such a exchange with USA would still leave USA unharmed but there would be no Pakistan left after US retaliation.

Don't people realize any attack on Bahrain, Qatar or Saudia Arabia [ US bases ) would mean millions of dead Pakistani ex pat workers and the so called 'Arab brothers'.

All that for knocking out couple of thousand Yanks !!!

Very wise......by the examples of water etc., Afghans should have surrendered before the US (or Soviet) invasion even began. But I guess they must have been stupid to prove you wrong!

And precise attacks on American bases in the middle east would not take out millions of Pakistanis/Arabs as the attacks would be concentrated only on precise locations and that too only if those bases are being used for anti Pakistan missions.

And on top of that, one of the best trained and respected armies of the world is being discounted in favour of Korean Army exercises...........God!!!

Finally, if the aim of the US is to leave behind another Afghanistan, would it not be better to take out as much of the US as possible with Nukes for atleast the rest of the world, to make the world a safer place?

 

[sohail.ishaque]

lol at pakistanis...an unconfirmed report stated an AC into international water 130 km away(i think some people doesn't know what 60-70 NM actually) with no intention of attacking Pakistan...and they started pi**ing...

Dar k age baro...dar k age jeet hai..(thank goes to mountain dew)

jo dar gaya so mar gaya...(thank goes to Gabbar Singh)


anyway...i think its for Iran,not for Pakistan..
@OP..is there any other source of this news???

That is not unconfirmed.... its there.. confirmed..

 

[Penguin]

US violates int


Karachi: After failing to strike a deal on Nato supply with Pakistan, violating international laws the US has moved its USS Enterprise, the nuclear-powered aircraft carrier, into Pakistani territorial waters near Gawadar city of Balochistan province.
“After the deployment of the aircraft in Pakistani sea the country’s security agencies are now investing into the matter. The movement apparently shows the increasing interest of the US in Balochistan province of Pakistan,” sources said.
“The US has moved its biggest aircraft carrier 65 to 70 nautical miles away from Gawadar in the second week of June,” a well informed source told The News Tribe correspondent.
The USS Enterprise, which holds a crew of over 4,000, had taken part in several wars.

So, this is about USS Enterprise dd 16 april 2012

WHERE WERE/ARE THE CARRIERS?!
CV Locations

CVN-65 Enterprise:
04Apr2012, transited the Suez Canal, and entered the 5th Fleet AOR
04Apr-06Apr2012, Red Sea
07Apr2012, Arabian Sea
08Apr-15Apr2012, North Arabian Sea
16Apr-24Apr2012, Persian Gulf
25Apr-28Apr2012, Jebel Ali, United Arab Emirates
29Apr-15May2012, North Arabian Sea

CVN-68 Nimitz
18Mar2012, returned to Everett
16Apr2012, departed Everett
16Apr-19Apr2012, EastPac
20Apr-06May2012, San Diego

CVN-69 Dwight D. Eisenhower
15Mar-05Apr2012, WestLant
06Apr2012, returned to Norfolk
16Apr2012, departed Norfolk
16Apr-17May2012, Composite Unit Training Exercise (COMPTUEX) off the East Coast from Virginia to Florida
17May2012, completed COMPTUEX

CVN-70 Carl Vinson
30Mar-02Apr2012, Arabian Sea
03Apr2012, returned to U.S. 7th Fleet AOR
03Apr-06Apr2012, Indian Ocean
07Apr-09Apr2012, anchored off the coast of Chennai, India
10Apr-16Apr2012, participates in Exercise Malabar 2012 with the Indian Navy, in the vicinity of Chennai, in the Bay of Bengal, and west of the Nicobar Islands
17Apr-23Apr2012, Indian Ocean
24Apr-27Apr2012, Fremantle, Australia
28Apr-03May2012, Indian Ocean
04May-10May2012, WestPac
11May2012, returned to the U.S. 3rd Fleet area of responsibility (AOR)

CVN-71 Theodore Roosevelt
29Aug2009, entered Newport News Shipbuilding for a RCOH
21May2011, left dry dock and transitted the James River as relocates from dry dock 11 to a pier 2 at Newport News Shipbuilding for the second half of RCOH

CVN-72 Abraham Lincoln
28Mar2012, Gulf of Oman
29Mar-01May2012, North Arabian Sea

CVN-73 George Washington
22Nov2011, returned to Yokosuka
12May2012, departed Yokosuka
12May-15May2012, Sea Trials off the coast of Japan
16May2012, returned to Yokosuka

CVN-74 John C. Stennis
02Mar2012, returned to Bremerton
07Apr2012, departed Bremerton
07Apr-09Apr2012, EastPac
10Apr-11Apr2012, San Diego
12Apr-19Apr2012, Fleet Replacement Squadron Carrier Qualifications off the coast of southern California
20Apr2012, returned to Bremerton

CVN-75 Harry S. Truman
03Feb2012, moved from dry dock 8 to Pier 6 at Norfolk Naval Shipyard in Portsmouth
-------[ Schedule ]-------------------------
summer of 2012, expected to return to the fleet

CVN-76 Ronald Reagan
06Jan2012, departed San Diego en route to Puget Sound Naval Shipyard for scheduled Dock-Planned Incremental Availability (DPIA)
06Jan-09Jan2012, EastPac
10Jan2012, sailed into Puget Sound Naval Shipyard for DPIA. DPIA will cost $218 million and take one year to complete
Ronald Reagan will be homeported in Bremerton

CVN-77 George H.W. Bush
12Mar-27Mar2012, Carrier Qualifications in the WestLant
28Mar2012, returned to Norfolk
20Apr2012, departed Norfolk
20Apr-08May2012, Carrier Qualifications in the WestLant
09May2012, returned to Norfolk

I.e. any carrier sightings might refer to any 1 of 4 carriers that where in or near the location at the time.....

 

[MilSpec]

SC might it be possible China sell/give a few aircraft killers. We need 2 for India and at the moment 1 for Americans. Maybe we can test how effective they are for you.

perfect mentality!!!!!

 

[Indus Pakistan]

*

Very wise......by the examples of water etc., Afghans should have surrendered before the US (or Soviet) invasion even began. But I guess they must have been stupid to prove you wrong

@Mave3rick

Why do you insist on comparing apples with oranges? I know your smart so it can't be because you fail to understand - I assume your just just being plain disingenous.

Afghans as a people live a very basic life. Within the Pashtun society children learn to shoot before they learn how to write. They live by a raw uncompromising code and more often than not are involved in a lifetime of vendetta that can go on for generations. They can and do live rough.

I recall reading a article by John Fisk just before US bombing of Afghanistan commenced. The thrust of the article was that here was a 21st century hi tech military machine about to bomb people already living in the stone age. He asked what targets was USAF going to attack? There was hardly any infrastructure in the country to attack.

The threat of 'bombing you to stone age' carried no substance with regards to Afghanistan - They already were in the stone age. The Taliban forces did not have massive armored formations or cantonments to attack. The other thing about Pashtun is they will fight with their brother, or their cousin, or the tribe. Fighting is instilled in them from a young age.

So sure enough like they have always done they ran into the hills and started doing what they always do - fight. They did that when the British were in South Asia. The British managed to pacify 100s of millions of people all over South Asia but oh no, not the Pashtuns of the hills.

Except at the times of sowing and of harvest, a continual state of feud and strife prevails throughout the land. Tribe wars with tribe. The people of one valley fight with those of the next. To the quarrels of communities are added the combats of individuals. Khan assails khan, each supported by his retainers. Every tribesman has a blood feud with his neighbor. Every man's hand is against the other, and all against the stranger.

"Nor are these struggles conducted with the weapons which usually belong to the races of such development. To the ferocity of the Zulu are added the craft of the Redskin and the marksmanship of the Boer. The world is presented with that grim spectacle, "the strength of civilisation without its mercy." At a thousand yards the traveller falls wounded by the well-aimed bullet of a breech-loading rifle. His assailant, approaching, hacks him to death with the ferocity of a South-Sea Islander. The weapons of the nineteenth century are in the hands of the savages of the Stone Age.

Pathan Revolt - 1897

I am not saying I agree with every word said by Winston Churchill. He almost got killed by the Pathans but without doubt the British had marched thousands of miles all over South Asia but than ran into the indomitable Pathans who stopped them in their tracks and were a constant thorn in their sides. Majority of the British Army was posted in the north west. That spirit was not seen anywhere else in South Asia.

Pakistan Punjab did not fart for 97 years under British rule. In Sindh it's almost the same story except for the Hurs. Therefore please do me a favour stop comparing the wild Afghans with Pakistan. That is chalk and cheese comparison. We are having riots in Pakistan because we have electric loadshedding for 8 hours. Well most of Afghanistan does not need to worry - There is no electricty to shed. Our people are grouching about lack of gas pressure well most Afghans don't need to worry they don't have any gas.

And precise attacks on American bases in the middle east would not take out millions of Pakistanis/Arabs as the attacks would be concentrated only on precise locations and that too only if those bases are being used for anti Pakistan missions.

@Mav3rick

When you say precise attacks what do you mean? Suicide bombers, conventional airstrike, nuke missiles etc please elaborate.

And on top of that, one of the best trained and respected armies of the world is being discounted in favour of Korean Army exercises...........God!!!

@Mave3rick

Don't be a muppet and get carried away with propaganda. That is for the ignorent masses. Let us look at some actual facts. LOC 1948. LOC 2012. How many inches have we moved north in 65 years of trying? 1inch, 10 inches or 100 inches. What has been holding us back, the Hindoo Army? I will deal with the Koreans some other time but they gave the Yanks a bloody nose and even now US would dare not attack North Korea even without the Nuke factor.

Finally, if the aim of the US is to leave behind another Afghanistan, would it not be better to take out as much of the US as possible with Nukes for atleast the rest of the world, to make the world a safer place?

@Mave3rick


Do you mean turn Pakistan into another Afghanistan? If this is what your driving at no I don't think they want to turn Pakistan into another Afghanistan. They and the British would be big losers if that happened. Both countries have millions of Pakistani's living there. Many would be radicalized and instability in Pakistan would hit the streets of US and UK.

Attock would spill over into Accrington, UK and Narowal would spill into Newark, USA. They would get regular taste of what happened in London 2005 leave alone mass asylum seekers.

And the future of 180 million Pakistan supercedes any 'debt' we might have to rest of the world. At any rate we would not be able to hit any part of USA. All we would be able to do and that is being optimistic is knock out US bases in Arabian Gulf. That would be couple of thousand Yanks, less Yanks than what they lost at Iwo Jima in WW2.

That is mighty expensive exchange for frying 180 million peole in Pakistan. I don't know about you but I am not going risk my family in such a exchange, no sir !!!

And finally let me say it again short of some crazy thing happening we are not going have a war with US. Our relations might go sour to the point that they sanction us. That is the worst they will do. There is a graduated scale from stopping aid to not allowing our exports to US - As you might know the bulk of our exports go to US and UK. This alone would cripple our economy etc. There are already signs US has begun to play hardball. We were depending on Diamer Bhasha Dam and Iranian oil pipeline to meet our electric/energy shortages.

US has already managed to dissuade the Chinese state Bank from lending us money for the pipeline and now they are playing games with World Bank which was going to finance the Diamer Bhasha Dam.

World Bank links Pak's Diamer-Bhasha dam funding to Indian concurrence - Yahoo! News India