US trying to sell the F-35 to India

[dac cong]

sorry.......reverse engineering is not our speciality.................our neighbours are more prone towards reverse engineering.......

My friend, I'm not meaning for India to "reverse engineering". More than likely, I said India should take that US offering and learn some new technologies then you can create your own Jet fighter which is capability to joit fight with both technologies.

If US offer that F-35 to some one "Master of Copy" she/he willing to pay 100x difference to be able own that F-35.

 

[JayAtl]

The F-35 export variants will have downgraded avionics.



This is a popular issue. Although it has improved, there's still more room for improvement. India is more or less self-sufficient with it's Flankers since they are licensed produced.



And a money swallowing machine at that. It costs way too much.



mmm...interesting!

If you are going to offer it to some US-unfriendly country, expect some **** to hit the fan



It's either you are insane, or you are not Indian.

A lot of interests are placed in the FGFA program and literally worth billions. It's a long-term issue, not some short-term one.

And I think you failed to notice that the Russian and the Indian one are two completely different programs.

The Americans will not offer any or at best very limited ToT options to India. End of story.

India was in fact initially offered to join the JSF program (ironic since it was a Cold War foe). They refused in order to focus on the FGFA program, and not conflict with it.

I hate posts like yours! The format .

Look you have made too many false assumptions. Like it will get downgraded avionics- what is that about? NATO is getting it- and India will too get the same if not some extra “cookies" . Do you think they , NATO , will get 3 gen avionics?

Look, follow this logic, even if they NATO and India don’t get the latest and greatest from the US- it is still way more advanced that any counterpart. You follow what I'm trying to say? I.e. hypothetically- If they don’t get the F22 of techs out there, so as to speak, it isn’t like the opposition will have a leg up. You don’t give up on best for the ‘perfect’

Money swallowing - well those are all contract negotiations... having Indian F 35 built in India is a cost effective solution. What you are griping about are things to do with price... or TOT- while I'm saying given US zeal to please India... they will probably give more than they give NATO countries. Example: US gave Israel bunker busting bombs but not NATO Turkey or others...

 

[JayAtl]

the day usa gives the source code for their radar and not requires us to sign their stupid agreements we can think about it...till them adios amigos...

everything is all or nothing. first, russian aint giving you source codes of any top line tech only they have. second - your military heads, yes YOUR MILITARY HEADS , had no issue with their agreements. It was the govt of India that objected to not look like the were too integrated with the US, FOR POLITICAL REASONS.

 

[Zabaniyah]

I hate posts like yours! The format .

Thank you

Look you have made too many false assumptions.

Wow really!?

Like it will get downgraded avionics- what is that about? NATO is getting it- and India will too get the same if not some extra “cookies" . Do you think they , NATO , will get 3 gen avionics?

Even NATO allies will get downgraded avionics. And certainly India won't be getting them.

Indeed, the F-35 has THE best avionics suite out there. Put that in an F-22 Raptor, then we are looking at a god. The T-50 and J-20 will look like babies in front of that

Look, follow this logic, even if they NATO and India don’t get the latest and greatest from the US- it is still way more advanced that any counterpart. You follow what I'm trying to say? I.e. hypothetically- If they don’t get the F22 of techs out there, so as to speak, it isn’t like the opposition will have a leg up. You don’t give up on best for the ‘perfect’

And they are always downgraded as usual.

Money swallowing - well those are all contract negotiations... having Indian F 35 built in India is a cost effective solution. What you are griping about are things to do with price... or TOT- while I'm saying given US zeal to please India... they will probably give more than they give NATO countries. Example: US gave Israel bunker busting bombs but not NATO Turkey or others...

That is if the US is willing to give India full ToT. And they'll never do that, believe me.

The F-35 costs way too much. Way over the price intended. It is not only due to contracts. The issue is due to delays in the F-35 project. The more they keep delaying, the more the price will go up. It's as simple as that.

And India is not a major non-NATO ally of the US. At the moment, they simply share common goals and interests at best. Not necessarily allies in the strictest sense. Russia, with whom the US still has some *ahem* "issues", is a traditional Cold War era ally. And it'll be that way for some time.

Although, I understand that India has balanced the relationship with both India and the US pretty well, they can't hang on to that strategy for too long. One way or day or another, you always have to pick a side.

At times it appears to me that the Cold War is getting hot

---------- Post added at 03:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:00 PM ----------

everything is all or nothing. first, russian aint giving you source codes of any top line tech only they have. second - your military heads, yes YOUR MILITARY HEADS , had no issue with their agreements. It was the govt of India that objected to not look like the were too integrated with the US, FOR POLITICAL REASONS.

And what on earth makes you think that the US will give India the F-35 source codes?

Man, this is crazy talk!

 

[Kazhugu]

everything is all or nothing. first, russian aint giving you source codes of any top line tech only they have. second - your military heads, yes YOUR MILITARY HEADS , had no issue with their agreements. It was the govt of India that objected to not look like the were too integrated with the US, FOR POLITICAL REASONS.

russia is giving everything...or atleast better than what the uS is giving...

with the US is just a buyer seller relationship...with russia its not that....and even if it gives late we can trust the russians not to put sanctions and that stuff for the silliest of reasons like putin slipping up in his bathroom...with america u cant rule out anything..

with russia we can integrate any third party avionics, weapons of our choice..with yankees it is not possible to custom fit...

with russia we can use the fighter for anything and russians wont care..but with yankees they monitor it and we dont like it..

unless US tries to do business with us on our terms or rather on more equitable terms shedding its seller attitude....they should be content with low volume, relatively non-critical exports like hercules, globe masters etc...

 

[SEAL]

No country will share their most advanced technology, India's growing US/NATO military relationship put the security of Russian hardware in danger so if they are wise enough and i believe they are they will give you downgraded version of PAK-FA technologies in the form of FGFA.

 

[Frank Martin]

Drop Pak-Fa for the F-35?? Are you serious Mr. Jay? F-35 programme is hitting every rock out there and you blindly believe that US gonna give us the ToT and source codes? Even for MRCA they did asked us to sign some f*cking treaty to get the F16/18..what a generous uncle Sam..

 

[Zabaniyah]

@Indians:
If you guys are ever going to drop the FGFA, please save some for us!

 

[MilSpec]

First apologies for starting a new thread about this and hope you guys would not mind.

- But really the only things I read here is full of “country specific" objections honestly vs. What’s best for India- that I had to start a thread based on Pro's vs. cons' ( wish the guys like Sancho can comment about it)

My bone of contention is really Russian quality. That’s what it boils down to. Yes, I know the F35 B aircraft not A, is having some issues. I get that...

My issue is with PAK -FA that makes me favor F35: You know that the weapons package and EW suite is far superior from the west. so unless you get or create a JSF like program that allows you to get those packages integrated into PAK-FA - is the aircraft really top notch?


You know - lord knows, that there are supply chain issues with Russian products, over lifetime; it costs more and just shoddy products from them. Look at your, India’s, purchase of smirch rockets... only what 5 years ago and it has serious issues with Russian quality. and then look at delays from anything from russia.

For me F35 is a no-brainer, allow me to preface it by saying knowing American and European technology will win in the end and given track history, is a superb 5th gen aircraft on hand by 2015 instead of 2020 ( come on have Russians ever delivered anything on time?).

Or perhaps I should ask, what if, hypothetical example… Say your enemy was offered this aircraft. would you be A-Okay and rest your laurel on the PAK-FA?

Now, what I like about US offering – is to be part of the JSF program. IF and that’s a good “ If” india can take advantage of the crisis in Europe and zeal of Americans to be on your good side and extrapolate some additional “ extras” like a TOT on most of it, allow India to produce it in India …. I don’t get why not drop Pak_FA.

Your first assumption is Russian avionics is inferior to west.

Let me remind you that N011M Bars in MKI is still highly classified and pretty much out ranges many "western AESA" radars. flanker and fulcrum IRST and LRF modules are envied by most of the western designers. Russians were also pioneers in incorporating HMD systems and high off boresight missile systems.

Why PAKFA,

In your opinion you want to pump tax payers money into a F35 project, which is pretty much sluggish maneuvering, low capacity, aircraft with serviceability issues. On the other hand PAKFA is designed to compete with F22.
Russians have offered you to co-develop a project which would be their lead in fighter, whereas American kicked out our engineers from boeing/ LM labs during the nuke explosions. What makes you think they wont do the same if some thing similar occurs again?

Next about lifecycle costs?

You get what you pay for, compare the total costs of Eurofighter typhoon with Su 30MKI, tell me which one is more expensive.
About the spares and rotables , please do not discount the fact that MoD has procured defective spares from ukraine, Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan in 90's which attributes to bad rap on Migs.

Most of the defence analysts, defence enthusiasts and ajai shukla are quick to jump the gun to criticize Russian products, maybe its time that before you make up your mind about the quality of russian equipment , have a conversation with the pilots who use them .

In all the conversation I have had with flanker pilots, no dis respect to other fighters in the region but the conclusions have been MKI can dominate the airspace(BVR/WVR) it is in with ease, Price to performance ratio on Russian platforms like MKI and m29upg is unparalleled.

Russian institution are willing to incorporate french israeli and german gear in thier a/c to IAF's custom needs.
IAF/HAL is has extensive experience of co-developing successful customised platforms to fit IAF's needs, eg. Mig21 BISON upgrade, MKI, UPG programs.

KH 59 ME, KH 59MK, KH31, KS172, R27ET/ER, RVV-MD/ RVV-AE, have unparalleled performance.

FGFA will grow on the experiences gained by both HAL and Sukhoi OKB now RAC from these projects and will be able to deliver a product that you haven't still conceived.

Forget source codes and Cismoa, will the american even let you integrate your own platforms like astra on their f35... trust me the answer is a big No

 

[sancho]

My bone of contention is really Russian quality.
In that case I wonder how you could be for F35 at this stage of the development? It constantly faces issues and not only the B version, in all versions and all fields! Be it cracks in the airframe, issues with the engine or HMS developments, flight performance and range..., just look at how many time it was grounded from testing. On the other side, T50 is flying for a year now and apart the engine issue during Maks 2011, there was not a single problem report and the testings of new prototypes and systems goes on pretty well. If the 3rd version really has the new AESA integrated, they are moving very fast and might even hit the timeframe the of induction in 2015, which most people (including me) never though would be realistic.

My issue is with PAK -FA that makes me favor F35: You know that the weapons package and EW suite is far superior from the west.

Based on? Pak Fa gets completely new weapons and most of the specs are not known yet, it has a higher payload and should carry more weapons internally than F35 and we are free to integrate Indian or western weapons or avionics too. MKI has one of the best EW systems in Asia and as we all know, the US limit the capability of their export EWs, one reason why Israel tried to put their own systems into F35 too.

When we look at the experience with MKI, there is hardly a reason for us to complain about. We have excelent avionics, since 1998 we operate Flankers and lost only 2 in crashes (at least 1 of them caused by a pilot error), the reliability of Sukhoi is much better than of Mikoyan and although we have some minor issues on spares, IAF is more than happy with the fighter and is even more eager to get their hands on FGFA.
The FGFA partnership will give Indian inustry even more participation than they had with MKI and will make us less dependen on Russian spares. I even expect that we will try to get certain spares from western suppliers too and since FGFA will be our fighter, there is no need for Russian approval. So all in all, we get the best from Russia, include the best from the west that is available, include as much indigenous techs and weapons as possible and have a way better fighter than F35 and a way better deal than beeing a minor partner in F35 project and we are totally free to do anything we want to do with it, without facing all the restrictions the US pose on export customers.

 

[ali.jishan786]

My friend, I'm not meaning for India to "reverse engineering". More than likely, I said India should take that US offering and learn some new technologies then you can create your own Jet fighter which is capability to joit fight with both technologies.

If US offer that F-35 to some one "Master of Copy" she/he willing to pay 100x difference to be able own that F-35.

how could we learn tech from f-35.....bcoz usa will never give any source code to India.........usa also not giving ToT

how could usa will such stupid.......usa knows that india is working on FGFA......so usa will never give any tech.......which will gave us advantage in AVIONICS FOR AMCA....

even if we buy f-35 from usa.......we have nothing but a fighter without source codes and will have no access to Avionics........

so if indian govt really want waste money they can happily buy some f-35s to make usa happy........






F-35 PILOT: Spare me F-35

BREAKING NEWS: F-35 PILOT JUMPS OUT OF F-35.............and HE is crying......

 

[perplexed]

F-35 PILOT: Spare me F-35

BREAKING NEWS: F-35 PILOT JUMPS OUT OF F-35.............and HE is crying......

most of us understand here that F35 is experiencing some major problem but come on ? u dont have to go to that extent to mock them...

 

[ali.jishan786]

looks like pilot is pissed off.............