US responsible for the Murder of Pakistani Troops - Pak Rejects NATO Probe

[VCheng]

VC:

The post that you replied to was not arguing deliberate intent (which I have on the other thread), it was questioning CENTCOM's rationale for trying to place blame on Pakistan, even if partial, for the incident.

And if I may address the implied statement in your post, Chogy's comments might be perceived to 'carry more weight' because he has at least not taunted Pakistanis here with comments along the lines of 'just wait till Pakistan backtracks ..' etc.

Chogy has defended the US against some of the harsher allegations regarding intent, but he has not denigrated Pakistan or its military in the process - that is where the difference lies, when it comes to the type of responses you garner vs those that Chogy garners.

All the NATO report indicates are errors on both sides; there is no need for that to be taken as blaming Pakistan.

And I never taunted anything; your perception is incorrect. However, please continue to harbor whatever grudges you may, for I cannot try any more to correct them.

 

[iPhone]

Please rest assured the average American is saddened by the deaths of genuinely allied troops. Anyone who is fighting terrorism is considered Brothers in Arms, and the average Pakistani soldier is exactly like the average American soldier; 18 to 22, patriotic, eager to do their duty, and with no desire to harm anybody other than the enemy.

that's very kind of you to say that, chogy. But unfortunetly we all know it's so not true. How Pakistan is viewed by averg Americans (due to full fledged propaganda launched against Pak) is anything but what you wrote.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

One would suggest caution here: In a zeal to prove failure of NATO to follow SOP, Pakistan must be ready to counter frank charges of aiding and abetting the enemy, by leaking confidential informaiton, thus opening up a whole new can of worms best avoided I think, given the vitiated atmosphere and connotations left by the OBL raid.



Thank you for that post.

I assure you that things can be made much more difficult for Pakistan over and above what you perceive, perhaps mistakenly, to have happened already, should USA want to do so; however, I can assure you that is not the case, given that creating severe economic hardship would lead to civil war within Pakistan in a relatively short period of time.

I am sure nobody would want that.

atleast we understand each other well, all the more reason to end this charade.

Americans have already facilitated in rehabilitating our wanted terrorist Bramdgah Bugthi in Europe and how Mullah Fazlullah is able to make open air videos from Afghanistan mocking Pakistan does tell a lot about this partnership. And to top it off we are threatened with Consequences if we break off our partnership.

Haha the blatant cheek of all this is shocking and laughable and then you wonder why the world hates America. I think Americans are doing much already for some time although still being an ally.

I wonder when the American people will rid themselves from the warmongers and fascists who are so sick to the core that are still hungry for more conflict after causing the deaths of millions in Iraq and Afghanistan.

 

[VCheng]

atleast we understand each other well, all the more reason to end that to end this charade.

Americans have already facilitated in rehabilitating our wanted terrorist Bramdgah Bugthi in Europe and how Mullah Fazlullah is able to make open air videos from Afghanistan mocking Pakistan does tell a lot about this partnership. And to top it off we are threatened with Consequences if we break off our partnership.....................

Good points. I look forward to seeing the WoT end as soon as possible so that Pakistan can begin to chart its own course as best as possible. I wish you and your compatriots luck Sir.

---------- Post added at 09:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:23 PM ----------

I think this is the elephant in the room that we are all tiptoeing around. When someone like Adm. Mullen openly makes the kinds of allegations he did regarding the Pak military/ISI, then it legitimizes and 'mainstreams' that kind of thinking throughout the organization. It was a very dangerous and irresponsible statement by Adm. Mullen.

No wonder, then, that some cowboys decided to give some payback.

I hope you have had a chance to read Chogy's response above.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

sorry something wrong with my browser i have to do a self delete to get to front page

Update to the latest version of your browser, and try and use Chrome instead of Firefox - FF gave me that issue as well, despite having the latest version.

 

[toxic_pus]

For what it's worth, here is the entire timeline from the US report (Annexure D)

(NOTE: 'Time D' is Delta Time i.e. Afghanistan time, while 'Time Z' is Zulu Time.)

'HLZ' means Helicopter Landing Zone

 

[iPhone]

I understand this is a sensitive issue.

I don't know any other way to say it other than that my gut tells me that there was no intent, and I base that on wearing the uniform myself, and being intimately involved with my own daughter's army career.

Intention is 98% of something like this. We can all understand an accident, and we can also understand, but not necessarily be content with, an accident due to negligence. The level of negligence is very important to assigning blame and the hard feelings that come from a fatal incident.

The USA has some cool toys. There have been movies based upon them, like the "Bourne" movies, where the US G. can tell what you ate for dinner and can snoop through written correspondence by satellite. These are all ridiculous. We have capabilities, but they all fall WAY short of what Hollywood insinuates. My point with this is that lack of data, the "fog of war", and the unknown in military operations is very real and hard to describe accurately for those who have not served. When you have troops in contact with whomever, the assumption is automatically made that they are hostiles, and all resources are instantly poured into the fight to resolve it in our favor. Priority #1 is American lives. I know this doesn't sit well with others, but all militaries work this way - they preserve their own first when there is a fight in progress.

In this case, I can only guess what was happening. I'm suspecting that the airmen radio'd "We are taking fire" and at that point, everything goes into returning fire and eliminating the threat. There is no time to analyze in any detail at all, "Who is it?"

In this case, it went on for some time. Once fire is traded, the assumption is "They are enemy, because it is only the enemy who fire on us." Simplistic, but practical, and that's how it's done in the field.

In the mean time, the Pakistani soldiers are taking fire, returning when they can, so the fight continues. The communications chain had to go through two or three levels on both sides, with much confusion as to the location of troops. The articles I have read have said that the two sides said "None of our boys are in grid XYZ; they must be enemy" and unfortunately, the grid/map coordinates were not communicated properly.

I don't know what else to say, other than that I know the mentality of these troops. They are not animals, they are professionals who want to do a difficult job to the best of their ability. Further, the USA is still shedding ROE baggage from Vietnam, where we lost thousands of troops due to the inablity to fight without a hand tied behind their back.

I have to go to dinner, but I'l try and address this all further. Please rest assured the average American is saddened by the deaths of genuinely allied troops. Anyone who is fighting terrorism is considered Brothers in Arms, and the average Pakistani soldier is exactly like the average American soldier; 18 to 22, patriotic, eager to do their duty, and with no desire to harm anybody other than the enemy.

you are too kind, sir. But it appears to be a racially motivated incident. Surely you can't speak on every servicemen's personal feelings. No one can.

All that pent up anger against Pak due to propaganda against it came came out that night and took Pakistan soldier's lives. Mostly mid-ranking members, they kept the high command out of the loop. There is a report of two hour delay in notifying the high command.

I'm not saying they went out with that intention. But once things started, more than likely, their hate and anger took over and showed no stop until everything was reduced to smithern.

 

[pakistanitarzan]

Dude, there is no doubt that the attack was pre-planned. What would you expect from US if they have a belief that ISI is sending haqqani's to kill US soldiers in Afghanistan? Obviously Americans would want to take revenge. I am not sure if ISI supported the
haqqani's or not but Americans probably think that they did and that it was the right time for revenge. After all, every action has
an equal and opposite reaction.

 

[Devil Soul]

Airstrikes report: Pakistan, US far from same page

By Kamran Yousaf
Published: December 29, 2011

ISLAMABAD:
As the US seeks to end its missions in Afghanistan, relations between Pakistan and the US appear to be heading for a crash landing.

The army is expected to issue within a week its detailed response to the findings of the US probe into the November 26 Nato airstrikes which killed 24 Pakistani soldiers.

There will almost certainly be several differences in opinion.

Although Pakistan had already rejected the report’s conclusions in its initial responses, the detailed reply will be significant because it will set the tone for future cooperation with the US, a military official said.

“The US investigation report is being analysed and a detailed response will be given within a week,” confirmed the official, who asked not to be named.

Indications are that the army will totally reject the findings as questions are being raised about the impartiality of Brigadier General Stephen Clark, who led the US inquiry. “Brig Clark had commanded the same company which was involved in the Salala incident, so how can he be impartial,” the official asked.

Though the US probe has conceded that Nato must accept the major blame for the attack, it found that Pakistani soldiers fired first at American and Afghan forces.

However, the army said that Pakistan’s position was unambiguous: the November 26 attack was “totally deliberate and Nato was solely responsible.”

Army denies that US briefed Kayani

Meanwhile, the army denied reports that the American military briefed army chief General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani on its investigations.

Pentagon spokesman Captain John Kirby told the media that a report by military investigators was delivered to Gen Kayani on Sunday by a US officer based in Islamabad, who explained the findings in person.

The full report from the joint US-Nato investigative team was not released publicly until Monday, to allow time for the Pakistani leadership to read it first, Kirby said.

“We wanted General Kayani to be able to see the entire thing,” he said, calling the approach “an appropriate professional courtesy” to Kayani. However, a Pakistani security official told AFP that “no such briefing took place and the report was not handed over in person to the army chief.”

“The report was delivered to the concerned department (at army headquarters) but not to the chief,” the official said.

The disagreement over the facts looks set to be the first of many this week.

Published in The Express Tribune, December 29th, 2011.
Airstrikes report: Pakistan, US far from same page – The Express Tribune

 

[Devil Soul]

Army finds fault with US probe head
By: sikandar shaheen | December 29, 2011
ISLAMABAD - Rejecting the detailed NATO probe on last month’s border attack, Pakistan Army has questioned the validity of the findings supervised by a military man who held command of allied forces in Afghanistan.

The military has expressed serious reservations over the US Air Force Brigadier General Stephen Clark’s leading the Mohmand attack probe while refusing to show any compliance for the launch of a fresh investigation.

The development reportedly followed an exchange of written communication between the Pentagon and Pakistan’s military headquarters (GHQ) amid the reports that the latter has raised serious questions over the authenticity of the NATO report under the supervision of Brigadier General Clark.

According to informed officials, the Pakistan military holds Clark as one of the commanders responsible for the November 26 deadly attack on two Pakistani military pickets - Volcano and Boulder - that killed 24 soldiers. As head of Air Force Special Operations Forces (AFSOF), Clark remained Colonel Commandant of the 27 Special Operations Forces (SOF) Wing that carries out ground and aerial operations in Afghanistan. The 16 Squadron Wing of the United States Air Force (USAF), that saw its gunship choppers bombarding the Pakistani pickets, was also headed by Brigadier General Clark in his official capacity as the chief pilot.

The Squadron 16, it is learnt, directly oversees the operational command of the sophisticated gunship choppers AC-130 H Spectre that were used in the Mohmand Agency attack. Apart from heading the combat mission in Afghanistan, Brigadier General Clark also remained the Commander of 4th SOF at the USAF.

Citing the afore-stated factors, Pakistan’s military, in the Wednesday’s correspondence with the Pentagon, is reported to have pointed out Stephen Clark’s unsuitability for leading a sensitive probe that, according to military circles, compromised his objective position owing to his direct professional linkages with allied combat forces in Afghanistan. “He is not neutral. Given that he himself commands the Special Operations Forces, we have grounds to believe that the November 26 episode did not happen without Clark’s consent. He is as much to be held responsible as General Allen is,” military officials said.

When contacted on Wednesday, the NATO Air Operations spokesperson in Afghanistan Christopher DeWitt told this scribe that Pentagon was in better position to address any queries on Brigadier General Stephen Clark. Pentagon’s spokesperson George Little was not accessible at his official cell phone nor did he return the emails.

The NATO, it is further learnt, has offered Pakistan to launch a fresh probe into Mohmand Agency with Pakistan military being part of the investigation but this suggestion has also been turned down. “They’re not ready to accept anything but wanting the NATO to claim full responsibility of the border bombing incident and apologise unconditionally,” Nato-based sources said about Pakistan’s disinterest shown regarding the probe.

Earlier last Friday, Pakistan Army had rejected the initial findings of the investigation on Mohmand Agency attack released by the Pentagon. A military statement had said, detailed response (to the report) would be given as and when the formal report was received. This newspaper had reported Sunday that NATO was unlikely to share the detailed report with Pakistani military sensing adverse reaction from the latter. This development followed the requests by the US Central Command (CENTCOM) Chief General David Mattis which had been turned down for a meeting with Pakistan Army Chief General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani. Reportedly, General Mattis wanted to visit Pakistan to brief the country’s military top brass on November 26 attack.

Pakistani officials say that the military refused to cooperate on last month’s probe because the probe’s findings in the presence of General John Allen, the NATO Commander in Afghanistan, and Brigadier General Clark were “pretty obvious”. Military circles believe that an impartial inquiry was not possible without putting into probe General Allen, Clark and Afghan National Army’s Head General Sher Muhammad Karimi.

Special Correspondent from Washington adds: While dropping hints of disciplinary action against those responsible for last month’s NATO attack that killed 26 Pakistani soldiers, the US military said Tuesday that Army Chief General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani has been briefed on its investigation into the deadly incident.

The full report was presented to Gen Kayani by a US military officer stationed at the US Embassy in Islamabad, Pentagon spokesman Navy Captain John Kirby told reporters.

He said the report from the joint US-Nato investigative team was not released publicly until Monday to allow time for the Pakistani leadership to read the findings first. “We wanted General Kayani to be able to see the entire thing,” he said. The approach represented ‘an appropriate professional courtesy’ to Kayani, he added.

A summary of the report was released Thursday by the officer who led the investigation, Brigadier General Stephen Clark.
The US report provides more details on the November 25-26 air strikes that Clark says were the result of a series of mistakes and botched communications on both sides — reflecting an underlying mistrust between the two countries.

It took the NATO-led force 90 minutes to halt air strikes after a Pakistani liaison officer first alerted US and coalition counterparts that Pakistani troops were coming under fire from American aircraft, the report said.

The probe also said the US military had failed to notify the Pakistanis in advance of the night raid near the border and that a coalition officer mistakenly gave the wrong location of the US troops to his Pakistani counterpart.

Kirby, the Pentagon spokesman, said military leaders will use the final report on the investigation to determine if anyone should be punished. Those decisions, he said, would be made by officers in the chain of command, depending on whether they found that mistakes were made by US or NATO personnel.
Army finds fault with US probe head - The Nation

 

[Devil Soul]

US likely to punish those involved in Nato attack
From the Newspaper | Front Page | (3 hours ago) Today
WASHINGTON: The United States indicated on Wednesday that it might take action against those involved in a Nato attack on Pakistani border posts, but only after receiving the final report of an official US inquiry into the incident.

Last week, the US Central Command released a preliminary report which conceded Nato’s mistakes but also blamed Pakistan for the deaths of 24 Pakistani soldiers in the November 26 attack.

Islamabad has rejected the report as biased and is urging the US to find those responsible and take punitive action against them, media reports said.

Earlier on Wednesday, a Pentagon spokesperson told a briefing in Washington that punitive action against those found guilty could not be ruled out, but only the final inquiry report could determine who was responsible.

The Pentagon official also noted that the Centcom commander, who supervises the US-led war in Afghanistan, had already directed the Kabul-based International Security and Assistance Forces to take concrete measures to improve cooperation with Pakistan.

The Pentagon, according to its spokesman Capt John Kirby, has provided a copy of the inquiry report to Pakistan army chief Gen Ashfaq Parvez Kayani.

Capt Kirby said an official of the US Embassy in Islamabad delivered a copy of the report to Gen Kayani at his headquarters on Sunday.

“We wanted Gen Kayani to be able to see the entire thing,” he said. The approach represented “an appropriate professional courtesy”, he said.

The two countries disagree over the precise sequence of events in the November 26 attack.

Pakistan denies shooting first, and has accused the Americans of an intentional attack on its troops.

The Americans concede that a series of mistakes and botched communications led to the attack but insist that the attack was not intentional.

They argue that an underlying mistrust between the two countries prevented their officials from sharing data with their Pakistani counterparts.
US likely to punish those involved in Nato attack | Newspaper | DAWN.COM

---------- Post added at 11:17 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:16 AM ----------

On ur knee's & say SORRY/APOLOGIZE to us

 

[Thorough Pro]

I think Pakistani's themselves are responsible for the murder of these 24 martyers and thousands of servicemen and civilians by turning a blind eye everytime US murdered our citizens either by drones or agents like RD. Had we taken a firm stand the first time this wouldn't have happened.

Even now when we know that these 24 souls were murdered intentionally, we are not demanding ISAF to handover all the involved culprits to be court martialled by Pakistani military courts for murder.

I wonder why have we not embargoed US millitary (transport) plane flights over Pakistan?

Why don't we ask them to explain their involvement in memogate scandal? are thery our "Friends or Foe"?

 

[Devil Soul]

 

[Developereo]

we have grounds to believe that the November 26 episode did not happen without Clark’s consent.

That's a very serious accusation.

The Pak military is upping the ante, while the civilians politicians are looking at their checkbooks. All this in the context of memogate and the ongoing tension between the civilian/military sides.

 

[Thorough Pro]

I wonder what has the US government not apologized to Pakistan forthis barbaric attack and murder of 24 innocent lives? If this incident was the result of a mistake as they claim, then why not apologize for their mistake?

Their attitude of indifference towards loss of precious innocent lives and stubbornness points to their involvement in theis henious crime.

Whatever they are doing now are pretending to be doing now is either for face saving or for getting the same free ride that they had been getting for last 10 years.