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US responsible for the Murder of Pakistani Troops - Pak Rejects NATO Probe

I think the onus lies on both sides to come up with a workable arrangement, keeping in mind Pakistan's newfound spine, as long as it lasts.

oh come on no need to be snide

tell me if anyone in Pakistan is advocating open confrontation with your country? we are talking about scaling down our contribution because it has not done any good to us. our own people have picked up the arms against us due to American drone strategy which it will never apply in its own country.

To date none of the two sides have declared hostilities but the resentment is genuine because Pakistan has suffered the fallout of the failure of American war in Afghanistan.

Pakistan cant dictate the Afghans what to do, they don’t take orders from friends or invaders. Even the most trusted and “non-Pushton” Afghans that are trained by ISAF turn their guns on the NATO occupation forces without the help of ISI or it veritable arm Haqqani network. It tells you something that Afghans want the Americans out of their land. The time for political solution has been lost and now American policy makers think that by humiliating their war ally they can salvage their reputation. This is all bound to fail eventually.

What Pakistani leadership thinks or do is irrelevant for America. Its leadership needs to think why is it still here? The primary objective of the War is achieved the organisation behind the 9/11 atrocity is demolished, its leadership killed or captured in Pakistan and Afghanistan over the ten years. The fascist Taliban regime removed from power and a pro-western government installed in Kabul. So its time to pack-up and go.
 
Pakistan has been responsible for one sided diplomacy for the past 10 years with the US, not to mention the fact that we allowed cargo (military & civilian) into Afghanistan (both air & land) without any transit fee for over 10 years which I am sure is worth atleast 100 times any amount of meager aid that the US has been chirping about every single day ever since the bloody US Terror war started.

this has to be the biggest blunder ever committed by Pak authorties. They chose off the book meager payments over ten folds legit ones through proper channels.
 
I still don't think NATO would necessarily want to kill the Pakistani soldiers. My reaction was that some kids brought-up in video games went gung-ho and went on the killing spree for two hours.

Remember the Abu Ghraib prison. In no way was the inhumane treatment of Iraqi prisoners authorized by the higher command of the US miltary, but still it happend under the supervision of mid ranks and committed by lower ranking soldiers.

Remember the infamous Apachi heli kill in Iraq and the rape and murder of a 14 year old and her family.

Two of these incidents legal charges and disciplanary actions were brought up against the soldiers committing the shameful acts, one was jusftified.

Did LA police ever authorized the beating of Rodney King by it's officers or taught their officers in teh academy to beat black men on LA's streets? No. Or did NYPD ever trained it's officers to shove broomstick up Abner Luima's rectum? No.

Point to consider here is that when hate and rage takes over, people end up committing acts of violence irespective of how illegal those actions are and what consiquence they meight bear.

This Nov. 26th incident is begining to look more and more like a hate crime than anything else. Once again, I dont think they went out with that intention, but once engagement began with Pak troops, their hate and anger got the best of them.
 
Remember the Abu Ghraib prison. In no way was the inhumane treatment of Iraqi prisoners authorized by the higher command of the US miltary, but still it happend under the supervision of mid ranks and committed by lower ranking soldiers.

Remember the infamous Apachi heli kill in Iraq and the rape and murder of a 14 year old and her family.

Two of these incidents legal charges and disciplanary actions were brought up against the soldiers committing the shameful acts, one was jusftified.

Did LA police ever authorized the beating of Rodney King by it's officers or taught their officers in teh academy to beat black men on LA's streets? No. Or did NYPD ever trained it's officers to shove broomstick up Abner Luima's rectum? No.

Point to consider here is that when hate and rage takes over, people end up committing acts of violence irespective of how illegal those actions are and what consiquence they meight bear.

This Nov. 26th incident is begining to look more and more like a hate crime than anything else. Once again, I dont think they went out with that intention, but once engagement began with Pak troops, their hate and anger got the best of them.

Whatever happened in Abugharib came from the highest comand, secretary of defence "Rumsfeiled". Probably you don't even know what actually happened in Abugharib except for the pics leaked on internet. For your information one specific captured Iraqi General was raped by female US service woman, and she only got a sentence of 6 months, and we don't even know if those sentence were only to show the world or actually carried out.
 
oh come on no need to be snide

....................................................

My remark was not snide at all; if this report is true, the pattern of strutting in public and begging in private will continue as before:

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Pasha visits Qatar to repair ties with US Pasha visits Qatar to repair ties with US | Newspaper | DAWN.COM............................

Of course, this will be painted as a "great" victory due to the "strong" and "principled" stand of Pakistan. Yeah, right.
 
Whatever happened in Abugharib came from the highest comand, secretary of defence "Rumsfeiled". Probably you don't even know what actually happened in Abugharib except for the pics leaked on internet. For your information one specific captured Iraqi General was raped by female US service woman, and she only got a sentence of 6 months, and we don't even know if those sentence were only to show the world or actually carried out.

No, need for a harsh tone. Rumsfield took the responsibility for the shameful abuse and torture at a senate hearing but it wasn't that he issued such directives. Unless you're going by Kerry and other democrats accusation on rumsfield and bush's policies which lead to the torture.

And much much worse than what you mentioned happened to Iraqi prisoners in there. Many such ten times worse pictures and videos were withheld from the media.
 
I think the onus lies on both sides to come up with a workable arrangement, keeping in mind Pakistan's newfound spine, as long as it lasts.

There was this village boy who gets a horse on his 14th birthday

Everybody in the village says; "What a wonderful gift"

The Zen master says "We'll see"

A year later, the boy falls off the horse and breaks his leg.

Everyone in the village says; "How terrible that the boy is suffering"

The Zen master says, "We'll see"

A war is on the horizon and the boy isn't sent off to fight on account of his injured leg.

Everybody in the village exclaim "How lucky this boy is !!!"

The Zen master says "We'll see......"

I think you catch the drift.

This is the infinite loop on the argument that you keep tapping into for your posts and at the end of the ordeal you come off as the wise Zen master and poor ol' me as the village imbecile who didn't know any better than to pick sides.Pretty much pointless to argue against until you define just where your line in the sand is...bugging out!!!
 
There was this village boy who gets a horse on his 14th birthday

Everybody in the village says; "What a wonderful gift"

The Zen master says "We'll see"

A year later, the boy falls off the horse and breaks his leg.

Everyone in the village says; "How terrible that the boy is suffering"

The Zen master says, "We'll see"

A war is on the horizon and the boy isn't sent off to fight on account of his injured leg.

Everybody in the village exclaim "How lucky this boy is !!!"

The Zen master says "We'll see......"

I think you catch the drift.

This is the infinite loop on the argument that you keep tapping into for your posts and at the end of the ordeal you come off as the wise Zen master and poor ol' me as the village imbecile who didn't know any better than to pick sides.Pretty much pointless to argue against until you define just where your line in the sand is...bugging out!!!

brother - you have hit the nail on the head - this is the reason why all are frustrated with the posting he puts on here. No one has the patience of his lack luster circular contradicting articles that end up with you getting so wound up! Well spotted bro
 
Of course, this will be painted as a "great" victory due to the "strong" and "principled" stand of Pakistan. Yeah, right.

Please, stop acting like a stubborn.. there is already a thread on it .. where after reading the article, I come to the conclusion that there was no reason to choose such title.

The visit is authorized by Gillani and the destination is Qatar!!

If Pakistan army was so pressed to discuss any thing.... they already had various opportunities while remaining in Pakistan.
On 13 Dec. Gen. Allen met with Kyiani in GHQ! and bloody DAWN also tried to make similar headlines out of it.

While you your self are on record on this forum repeatedly saying that the salala attack it is an opportunity for Pakistan.. than why are you now thinking that Pakistan wish to reverse its fortune!!!

Man you are mostly trolling rather than any thing else.

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Weekend Edition Dec 30-Jan 01, 2011

One nation’s minor accident is another’s barbarous catastrophe

Cross-Border Incident

by BRIAN CLOUGHLEY


“Pakistan Rejects US Findings on Deadly Air Strike” was a typical headline on December 23, following the Pentagon’s “Department of Defense Statement Regarding Investigation Results into Pakistan Cross-Border Incident.”

The “incident” involved hours of US airstrikes that killed 24 Pakistan army soldiers and wounded 13 more in Mohmand Agency in northwest Pakistan on November 26. And if this is what the Pentagon calls an “incident” it makes you wonder how they would refer to the slaughter of 24 US soldiers in similar circumstances.

It is hardly surprising that the Pakistan army’s first reaction to the investigation report was that it is “short on facts,” if only because the Pakistani account of events was not considered in any way. The story, now, is that Pakistan refused to take part in the inquiry, and, like all effective propaganda, the yarn has a modicum of truth.

Pakistan was told it would not have equal status in the inquiry, so declined being relegated to an inferior position, because it was made clear that its members of the inquiry board would not be allowed to examine the most important information. There was no question of being permitted anything like equivalent representation. Can you imagine the Pentagon allowing a Pakistani officer to question US air force pilots who carried out the air strikes? Or access the record of computer exchanges? Or interview any of the US special forces involved in the ground operation?

There wasn’t the remotest chance of that. It was insulting to even suggest that Pakistan might accept such terms. But that’s typical of the way that ‘allies’ are treated by Washington.

Heading the inquiry was US Air Force Special Forces Brigadier General Stephen Clark whose previous job involved responsibility “for preparing Air Force Special Operations Forces for missions worldwide in support of Army, Navy and Marine Corps special operations forces and USAF counterparts.” Just the man to be objective and impartial about the killing of foreign soldiers by US aircraft supporting a mission by US special forces. And just what was the Mission? We’ll never know.

Here he is speaking on December 22 about the shambles he investigated : “in the background is a series of telephone calls from Pakistani LNOs to their RC — regional command element liaisons to say that their forces are under fire. There is confusion caused by this because there is a lack of precision as to where this is occurring. When asked, the general answer back was, well, you [Americans] know where it is because you’re shooting at them, rather than giving a position. So again, understanding that there was no — understanding that there were border positions in the area, people trying to do the right thing and nail down specifics so they can take action caused quite a bit of confusion.” (Google ‘DOD News Briefing Gen Clark’ for his performance. It’s surreal.)

In spite of most of his statements being gibberish, there is no confusion about one essential fact : there was, that night, only one series of US airstrikes within the territory of Pakistan. They were on the Pakistan army posts in Mohmand that had detected movement to their front. The Pakistanis had not been informed there was to be activity by US forces on the border and deny firing the first shots, but even if they did fire first it would have been perfectly reasonable to do so, as the stealthy US movement could well have been a Taliban incursion from Afghanistan similar to the one in October that killed two Pakistani soldiers.

If the US high command did not know exactly where their aircraft were firing, then matters have come to a sad professional pass in the most hi-tech military in the world. These aircraft know to the exact yard where they are striking. The sensible thing to have done would have been to order ‘Stop!’, and then to conduct basic checks as to what was going on. It is that simple. The Clark acknowledgement that “You know where it is because you’re shooting at them” has an inescapable logic — or would have, if the shooters and their commanders were logical people.

Then we come to the “misunderstandings” about where the Pakistan army positions are located, and I say, from first-hand knowledge, that the US claim of ignorance about where the posts were located is not credible. I was in Mohmand at the beginning of November and had a comprehensive briefing by the army’s 77 Brigade on all aspects of operations. I am satisfied that the “coalition forces” in Afghanistan were given the exact position of every post of the Pakistan army along the border. Later detail from Afghanistan (from an ISAF source) and Pakistan has reinforced my conviction. But there is another side to this.

The suave and articulate Brigadier General Clark was asked by a reporter: “were you saying that when the US has given . . . information to the Pakistanis, US operations have been compromised?”

Clark’s reply was “It was US or ISAF operations were believed to be compromised due to that. And again, that was not the scope of the investigation, so that was told to us as part of the atmospherics within the ISAF headquarters on down. We did not dig into that; we did not validate it. That was just indicated to us. In fact, there was an operation on 5 October in the same region where, when they went to in-fill the helicopters, they were hit with RPG fire, so that lends to their mindset as well — so, ISAF operations being compromised by sharing that information.”

The response by this senior US officer is not altogether lucid (although “in-fill” is a wonderful construction; is it taught at Staff Colleges?), but what comes out, loud and clear, is that Clark didn’t “validate” the critical evidence that information concerning US operations on the border with Pakistan is not provided to Pakistan. Presumably this prompted the statement by the Commander of US Central Command, General James Mattis, on December 26 that “The strongest take-away from this incident [that word, again] is the fundamental fact that we must improve border coordination, and this requires a foundational level of trust on both sides of the border.” But US forces have been there for nine years without establishing border coordination, simply because they do not inform Pakistan about their operations.

Little wonder that the Pakistan army doesn’t trust the US military and states, correctly, that the Clark investigation is “short on facts.”

According to the New York Times on December 26, the Clark Report “revealed for the first time” that a US AC-130 gunship had flown into Pakistan to help the helicopter gunships in their slaughter mission. This fact had of course been known by the unfortunate troops who were targets (I have accounts from wounded soldiers in the military hospital in Peshawar), but at least it has been admitted publicly. But possibly the most amazing thing about the Report (and the word ‘possibly’ is used because who knows what else is contained in the real version that will never be released) is the casual recommendation that the US commander in Afghanistan should “Consider harmonizing ISAF and Operation Enduring Freedom rules of engagement to promote clarity and transparency.”

What these people are telling us is that there is one set of Rules of Engagement — which are never revealed — for US forces and another (or others) for the rest of the 47 nations involved in the Afghan war, although whether this applies to Afghan troops is not known.

According to the Pentagon, ‘Rules of Engagement’ are “Directives issued by competent military authority that delineate the circumstances and limitations under which United States forces will initiate and/or continue combat engagement with other forces encountered.” For some fifty contingents totaling 130,000 troops to wage war in a foreign country without having the same directives about how to conduct operations would be laughable if it were not criminal. If there is so little internal coordination, it is hardly surprising that there is none at all with the Pakistan army, as was admitted by Mattis in observing that there has been no “pre-mission near-border coordination” for US operations.

What is ignored by the Pentagon and its media supporters is that US special forces operations in Afghanistan are not notified to the Afghan authorities or the militaries of allied foreign countries, or — almost unbelievably — on many occasions to other US forces. Until 2010 US special forces operated without reference to anyone except their own headquarters, and even when that was changed, there are still “very small numbers of US SOF” (to quote the New York Times) exempt from the overall command system. Only the special forces themselves know what the definition of “very small numbers” might be — if there is one. Like everything else that is potentially embarrassing, this is kept tightly secret. These swaggering thugs are out of control. And they are the Taliban’s best recruiters.

Washington has complained numberless times about Pakistan “not doing enough” to guard the frontier with Afghanistan. This is obvious nonsense, because there are over 150,000 Pakistani troops in the north west of the country, doing just that. The conflict there began because of the US invasion of Afghanistan, after which thousands of militants poured across the border into Pakistan and exerted savage influence in the border region. Operations against them by Pakistan’s army and para-military forces have resulted in the death of almost 4,000 soldiers, which by any standards is paying a considerable price. Perhaps even “doing enough.” But when Pakistan army soldiers, stationed along the border to help America in its war in Afghanistan, are slaughtered by US air strikes, ordered by US special forces whose accountability is verging on zero, it is understandable that the Pakistan army is none too keen to support a supposed ally which treats it with such disdain.

The inquiry into the massacre was a charade, and there is no doubt that if 24 US soldiers had been killed by Pakistani gunships there would have been a somewhat different reaction by the Pentagon — and by Congress, which would have gone hysterically berserk. But only foreign troops suffered, and no US soldiers were killed or injured, so it was only “an incident.”

Washington’s values are such that one nation’s minor accident is another’s terrible catastrophe. And no doubt the word-empowered and in-filled intellectual Brigadier General Clark will be promoted in due course, like so many of his ilk. Catastrophes take different forms.

Brian Cloughley’s website is www.beecluff.com
 
^^^^^^^Does any more need to be said?? If Americans were serious about resetting relations there would be criminal charges brought against those responsible for this tragedy
 
^^^^^^^Does any more need to be said?? If Americans were serious about resetting relations there would be criminal charges brought against those responsible for this tragedy

For firing back in self defence ??? Because thats what USA believes its troops did..
 
my God....
I am speachles......
The americans say that giving any information to PA about any operation along the pakistani border will be compromising the mission.....and then they say that there was a communication lapse...

that means they on purpose did not tell pakistan of the operation and dont intend to do so in future....

How elsecdo they plan to prevent such butchering of Pakistani soldiers in future?

I am glad now that Pakistan did not participate in the sham investigations..and rightly rejected the report.
 
For firing back in self defence ??? Because thats what USA believes its troops did..

you cant kill somebody just because they threw some pebbles at you.
thats what the americans did here...

In addition to that..if youcread news/PDF..you may know that Pakistani forces have been attacked multiple times from Afghanistan....so it was natural for pakistani soldiers to get jumpy and fire at unknown/unexplained movements in the dark on afghan side.....assuming they were insurgents attaching pakistani posts.
it was USA/ISAF responsibility to inform PA of their intended activity before hand.
 
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