US police kill more than two people a day, report suggests

[Ryuzaki]

They have 2 million people in jails....2 people a day seems in line

 

[chauism]

You obviously did not know how easy to get illegal firearms.

It's illegal to own, process and use a firearm in Australia, yet I know 3 places I can get an unregistered firearms right here in this suburb at the moment. The law in itself did not control the flow of firearms, as criminal will get their firearms illegally anyway.

Fact check: Where do Australians get illegal guns? - Fact Check - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

You are talking about the control part of the equation on something law cannot control, hence it was call "Illegal".

Are you sure about that? Because from what I read, about 5.2% of Australian adults (765,000 people) own and use firearms for purposes such as hunting, controlling feral animal, collecting, security work, and target shooting as 2007.

Gun control is a very delicate matter, any half a$$ed measure won't have any effect at all as it wouldn't solve the total availibility of guns in the hands of civilians. Even today Australian government decides to make any civilians owning gun totally illegal, it would take more efforts political determinations and extreme measures to get rid of those guns in the society.

One thing I am quite confused is that if it is illegal for civilians to own firearms, how the hell it is legal for civilian firms to import firearms legally from abroad, then wonder how the hell those guns get into the circulation of illicit black market.
'Idiot factor' drives gun crime

 

[jammersat]

a black and a mexican ?

lel

 

[jhungary]

Are you sure about that? Because from what I read, about 5.2% of Australian adults (765,000 people) own and use firearms for purposes such as hunting, controlling feral animal, collecting, security work, and target shooting as 2007.

Gun control is a very delicate matter, any half a$$ed measure won't have any effect at all as it wouldn't solve the total availibility of guns in the hands of civilians. Even today Australian government decides to make any civilians owning gun totally illegal, it would take more efforts political determinations and extreme measures to get rid of those guns in the society.

One thing I am quite confused is that if it is illegal for civilians to own firearms, how the hell it is legal for civilian firms to import firearms legally from abroad, then wonder how the hell those guns get into the circulation of illicit black market.
'Idiot factor' drives gun crime

Iol dude, illegal to own does not mean civilian cannot own WITH proper license.

EDIT :: Illegal to own means the ownership is not guaranteed by law.

No country had totally banned firearms, even in Hong Kong, Japan and China, you can own a firearm if you have proper license done. How easy that is to get a license and how tough is the control is a separate issue

Gun politics in Australia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Firearm ownership law in China - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Gun law in Australia is even stricter than in Hong Kong, all magazine are limited to 10 rounds for pistol and 5 rounds for rifle, no self loading shotgun and rifle is allowed, I have weapon license in both Hong Kong and Australia, and I can't even import the firearms I bought in Hong Kong and transport them to Australia.

So in term of Gun Laws, Australia have a stricter gun control than in Hong Kong, but would you say Hong Kong is safer in term of Gun violence than in Australia?

About the black market firearms, if you bother to read the piece I quote on my last post, you will notice legal firearms make up less than 1% of the black market firearms

 

[chauism]

Iol dude, illegal to own does not mean civilian cannot own WITH proper license.

EDIT :: Illegal to own means the ownership is not guaranteed by law.

No country had totally banned firearms, even in Hong Kong, Japan and China, you can own a firearm if you have proper license done. How easy that is to get a license and how tough is the control is a separate issue

Gun politics in Australia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Firearm ownership law in China - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Gun law in Australia is even stricter than in Hong Kong, all magazine are limited to 10 rounds for pistol and 5 rounds for rifle, no self loading shotgun and rifle is allowed, I have weapon license in both Hong Kong and Australia, and I can't even import the firearms I bought in Hong Kong and transport them to Australia.

So in term of Gun Laws, Australia have a stricter gun control than in Hong Kong, but would you say Hong Kong is safer in term of Gun violence than in Australia?

About the black market firearms, if you bother to read the piece I quote on my last post, you will notice legal firearms make up less than 1% of the black market firearms

This is where you are wrong. In China, generally private citizens are not allowed to possess firearms. In Hong Kong firearm is tightly controlled and possession is mainly in the hands of law enforcement, military, and private security firms (providing protection for jewelers and banks).

As for Australia gun ownership is accessible to the civilian population, and owners must comply with 'genuine reasons' to obtain a Permit to Acquire from their State government.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overview_of_gun_laws_by_nation

So I don't know how have you conclude that Australia has strict firearm law than HK.

And how easy to get a license and how hard the control of the accessibility of the firearms to the civilians is exactly the issue here. Not to mention the punishment for breaking these regulatons.

 

[jhungary]

This is where you are wrong. In China, generally private citizens are not allowed to possess firearms.

Are you sure about that??

Because according to People Republic of China Ministry of Public Security(公安部), you are wrong

中华人民共和国枪支管理法(主席令第72号)

第八条 专门从事射击竞技体育运动的单位配置射击运动枪支，由国务院体育行政主管部门提出，由国务院公安部门审批。营业性射击场配置射击运动枪支，由省级人民政府公安机关报国务院公安部门批准。
配置射击运动枪支时，由省级人民政府公安机关发给民用枪支持枪证件。

第九条 狩猎场配置猎枪，凭省级以上人民政府林业行政主管部门的批准文件，报省级以上人民政府公安机关审批，由设区的市级人民政府公安机关核发民用枪支配购证件。

According to the official source, there are currently 680,000 licensed firearms in China that serves Sport shooting and hunting purpose.

In Hong Kong iy is tightly controlled and possession is mainly in the hands of law enforcement, military, and private security firms (providing protection for jewelers and banks).

Again, are you sure?? Cause the Hong Kong Police force says otherwise

http://www.police.gov.hk/ppp_tc/11_useful_info/licences/arms.html

You can apply for a storage permit to Hong Kong Police Force, most Shooter in Hong Kong cannot or outright do not go for a permit simply because one of the condition is for the gun safe to be securely bolted in your properties, which for most of the Hong Kong resident who live in apartment complex, this is something impossible to do.

You can apply to keep your firearms at home if you own a whole properties and satisfied the storage rules and security and the reason why you want to store in your own home, you can apply for a permit.

Also bear in mind you DO NOT need a permit nor license to shoot and operate a firearm in Hong Kong, literally you can show up to Hong Kong Gun club or China Gun Club to shoot without getting license, this is something you cannot do in Australia.

China Gun Club - 中國鎗會

Hong Kong Gun Club

As for Australia gun ownership is accessible to the civilian population, and owners must comply with 'genuine reasons' to obtain a Permit to Acquire from their State government.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overview_of_gun_laws_by_nation

So I don't know how have you conclude that Australia has strict firearm law than HK.

The law in both Hong Kong and Australia require the same reason to own and use firearms (Security, Farming and Sport), however, you can own certain firearms in Hong Kong while you can't own the same firearms in Australia. For example, I have a 5 shots AR-15 semi-automatic rifle in Hong Kong and I shoot them in club match in Hong Kong, the same 5 shot AR-15 rifle is ILLEGAL in Australia even if I have an "A" License

And also you do not need to have a license to shoot Firearms in Licensed club in hong kong, you do need to sign P650 if you want to shoot in Australia

You are not allow to own airsoft, even if you have a corresponding license in Australia, vs you DON'T NEED A LICENSE to own Airsoft replica gun under 2J in hong kong

And finally, you gun license is not cross discipline, that mean if you shoot IPSC in my state, your licences does not allow you to shoot larger calibre sport such as metal silhouette, you will need a separate permit for that pistol or revolver, you don't have this clause in Hong Kong. A pistol license is just that, a pistol license.



Now, tell me, which gun law is stricter?

As I said, I have firearms license in both places, you can't snow the snowman

 

[chauism]

Are you sure about that??

Because according to People Republic of China Ministry of Public Security(公安部), you are wrong

中华人民共和国枪支管理法(主席令第72号)

第八条 专门从事射击竞技体育运动的单位配置射击运动枪支，由国务院体育行政主管部门提出，由国务院公安部门审批。营业性射击场配置射击运动枪支，由省级人民政府公安机关报国务院公安部门批准。
配置射击运动枪支时，由省级人民政府公安机关发给民用枪支持枪证件。

第九条 狩猎场配置猎枪，凭省级以上人民政府林业行政主管部门的批准文件，报省级以上人民政府公安机关审批，由设区的市级人民政府公安机关核发民用枪支配购证件。

According to the official source, there are currently 680,000 licensed firearms in China that serves Sport shooting and hunting purpose.




Again, are you sure?? Cause the Hong Kong Police force says otherwise

http://www.police.gov.hk/ppp_tc/11_useful_info/licences/arms.html

You can apply for a storage permit to Hong Kong Police Force, most Shooter in Hong Kong cannot or outright do not go for a permit simply because one of the condition is for the gun safe to be securely bolted in your properties, which for most of the Hong Kong resident who live in apartment complex, this is something impossible to do.

You can apply to keep your firearms at home if you own a whole properties and satisfied the storage rules and security and the reason why you want to store in your own home, you can apply for a permit.

Also bear in mind you DO NOT need a permit nor license to shoot and operate a firearm in Hong Kong, literally you can show up to Hong Kong Gun club or China Gun Club to shoot without getting license, this is something you cannot do in Australia.

China Gun Club - 中國鎗會

Hong Kong Gun Club



The law in both Hong Kong and Australia require the same reason to own and use firearms (Security, Farming and Sport), however, you can own certain firearms in Hong Kong while you can't own the same firearms in Australia. For example, I have a 5 shots AR-15 semi-automatic rifle in Hong Kong and I shoot them in club match in Hong Kong, the same 5 shot AR-15 rifle is ILLEGAL in Australia even if I have an "A" License

And also you do not need to have a license to shoot Firearms in Licensed club in hong kong, you do need to sign P650 if you want to shoot in Australia

You are not allow to own airsoft, even if you have a corresponding license in Australia, vs you DON'T NEED A LICENSE to own Airsoft replica gun under 2J in hong kong

And finally, you gun license is not cross discipline, that mean if you shoot IPSC in my state, your licences does not allow you to shoot larger calibre sport such as metal silhouette, you will need a separate permit for that pistol or revolver, you don't have this clause in Hong Kong. A pistol license is just that, a pistol license.



Now, tell me, which gun law is stricter?

As I said, I have firearms license in both places, you can't snow the snowman

You need to read the Chinese Gun control law again, civilian ownership of firearms is largely restricted to non-individual entities such as sporting organisations, hunting reserves, and wildlife protection, management and research organizations.

As for shooting range in HK, even in China you can go to a shooting club to fire a rifle with any license or permit. How many those guns have you seen getting into the illicit market? As you have said, it is next to impossible for an individual to get the permit for owning firearms in HK. I have stressed before that the main issue here is how government control the accessibility of firearms to general civilians. Banning certain firearms while permitting others is exactly what I call half a$$ed measure here. In China in some military operating shooting clubs you can even operate heavy mechine guns, that does not make China having less strict gun control than Australia. By comparison, percentage wise how many firearms are in circulation in the hands of individual civilians in HK versus Australia?

 

[jhungary]

You need to read the Chinese Gun control law again, civilian ownership of firearms is largely restricted to non-individual entities such as sporting organisations, hunting reserves, and wildlife protection, management and research organizations.

No, you need to read the article again and the MPS website..

680,000 firearms are Private INDIVIDUAL ownership, Chinese Private Firearms ownership is 4.9 Firearms per 100 people, which translate to about 49,000,000 Firearms are Privately owned in China

http://www.smallarmssurvey.org/file...l-Arms-Survey-2007-Chapter-02-annexe-4-EN.pdf

I would say there is a big ownership base if Individual own nearly 700,000 firearms, don't you think?

As for shooting range in HK, even in China you can go to a shooting club to fire a rifle with any license or permit. How many those guns have you seen getting into the illicit market? As you have said, it is next to impossible for an individual to get the permit for owning firearms. I have stressed before that the main issue here is how government control the accessibility of firearms to general civilians. Ban certain firearms while permitting others is exactly what I call half a$$ed measure here. In China in some military operating shooting clubs you can even operate heavy mechine guns, that does not make China having less strict gun control than Australia. By comparison, percentage wise how many firearms are in circulation in the hands of individual civilians in HK versus Australia?

More guns DOES NOT EQUAL TO RELAX GUN CONTROL LAW. You are arguing Gun Control law in Australia than Hong Kong. If you look at the guns by number itself. Australia will always have more guns than Hong Kong for a simple reason Australian outnumber Hong Konger 3:1. in fact, if I remember correctly, Hong Kong have more per capita than in Australia.

That have nothing to do with more gun flow in black market in Australia. As Guns are tightly control by both Federal and state government, 88% of all black market gun have an unknown origin. Again, only 1% or less than are legal gun become illegal.

For the government parts, they can ONLY REGULATE Legal gun ownership. They cannot regulate illegal gun trade. The reason why Australia have more illegal gun is because we have a bigger land (5th biggest in the world) and the government simply cannot control sea lane from our neighbour, and most illegal firearms are strict from Indonesia which some of the refugee trafficker also traffic guns on the side.

If you bother to read any link I give you regarding Hong Kong Firearms license and Australian Firearms license, you will know Australian License are A LOT HARDER TO RENEW. The Firearms restriction part is just a tip of the iceberg.

We can compare the two place on

1.) How to apply for a Firearms License
2.) Condition to renew a Firearms License
3.) Condition of Firearms purchase

To determine which country have a laxer regulation.

Here are the Firearms license application for both country (I use State of NSW as the standard licencing authority in Australia)

1. First Application

http://www.police.gov.hk/info/doc/licensing/arms/tc/als_C-indivd.pdf - First Application - Hong Kong
http://www.police.nsw.gov.au/__data..._firearms_lic_FACT_Sheet_-_7_January_2014.pdf - First Application - Australia

If you look at the First License application, basically they are the same. Same set of condition, same set of medical requirement and same background check, same safety course, same referencing system.

In Hong Kong
http://www.police.gov.hk/info/doc/licensing/arms/tc/als_C-1042.pdf - Renew - Hong Kong


警務處處長("處長")評估申請時，除考慮他可合理地考慮的任何其他有關事宜外，還須顧及下列各項-
甲. 申請人是否適合持有牌照，例如一. 有否刑事記錄；二. 有否足以影響他處理有關槍械彈藥的能力的病歷；以及三. 其身體及精神狀況是否良好。

乙.是否有好的理由讓該申請人持有牌照；

以及丙.向該申請人批給牌照一事，會否因為公眾安全及保安理由而遭非議。³

• 此外，評估申請時亦會考慮下列各項甲.申請人是否本地射擊會/潛水會/弩射藝會/體育會的會員；乙.申請人是否獲推薦管有槍械；丙.申請人有否合理需要管有申請的槍械；以及丁.申請的槍械是否用作康樂、體育及比賽用途。


• 申請人須出示由所屬射擊會/潛水會/弩射藝會/體育會負責人員簽署的推薦書。


• 《野生動物保護條例》(第170章) 規定，「申請的槍械」如作狩獵用途，申請人事前必須得到漁農自然護理署署長書面批准。批准書副本必須與這份申請表一併遞交。


• 申請增管槍械，須詳細說明理由，並須呈交現有槍械的詳細使用記錄。


申請人須接受並通過由警務處牌照課安排的槍械使用測試。

In Australia

You can request forms to apply for a firearms licence from the homepage of our website. Simply fill in the online form, including the categories and genuine reason you wish to apply for and submit it by using the email button on the form.

You will receive pre-printed application forms in the mail within 10 days. You may also request applicaton forms by phoning our Customer Service line - 1300 362 562.

When you receive the pre-printed application forms in the mail, fill in the sections and send them back with any
supporting documents for processing.

Genuine Reason

To make an application for a firearms licence you must be able to prove a genuine reason for possessing and using a
firearm.

NOTE: Personal protection or the protection of another person does not constitute a genuine reason for possession and use of a firearm. Additionally, the protection of property does not constitute a genuine reason for possession and use of a firearm, other than for the genuine reason of Business Security Industry.

What are the genuine reasons for obtaining a firearms licence?
There are eight genuine reasons for obtaining a firearms licence.

Sport/Target Shooting - target shooting activities as a club member on an approved target shooting range.
Recreational Hunting/Vermin Control - hunting and vermin control on rural land where the person is the owner/occupier
or has permission to shoot from an owner/occupier or a Government Agency.

Primary Production - the business of Primary Production.

Vertebrate Pest Animal Control - Contract shooters or officers of prescribed government agencies needing to suppress
vertebrate pest animals or primary producers participating in an authorised eradication campaign.

Business or Employment - Security Business, security guards, commercial fisherman, or other businesses who can
demonstrate a genuine need for a firearms licence.

Rural Occupation - a person employed or engaged in a rural occupation and who requires the use of firearms.

Animal Welfare - RSPCA or Animal Welfare League employees, Veterinary Practitioners, employees of the Department of Lands or Local Land Services, Owner, transporter, drover or other handler of animals which require the use of firearms.

Firearms Collection - a person who is a club member wishing to collect firearms or a genuine historic, thematic,
financial or commemorative value.

Is there a restriction on the category of licence for which I can apply?

Any person wishing to make application for a licence over and above a category A firearms licence must provide
evidence of special need. The special need for a Category B, C, D or H licence is established by the applicant providing evidence that a special need exists and giving reasons why the special need cannot be met by a smaller category offirearm or by any other means.

Each licence application includes a genuine reason form which has provision for completion of a special need.

Firearms Safety Training

Prior to applying for a firearms licence you will need to complete an approved firearms licence safety training course.
Training providers are as follows:

For Longarms: The Firearms Safety Training Council - Phone: 02 9486 3077,
Sporting Shooters Association of Australia - Phone: 1300 746 683,
Department of Primary Industries, Game Licensing Unit - Phone: 02 63913750,

Your nearest firearms club.

For Pistols: You must complete the safety training for pistols. Courses are run by approved firearms clubs for club
members. For assistance on courses run by other providers, call the Firearms Registry - 1300 362 562.

How long does it take to issue my licence?

A new licence application has a mandatory waiting period of 28 days from the date of receipt before the licence can be issued. Make sure that all the requested information is included in your application, as incomplete applications will delay the application process.

my comment : We can see there are no different apart from you don't need to be a Permanent resident in HK to get one, but you need to be a Permanent Resident in any state of Australia to obtain a state firearms license. As per state amendment

http://www.police.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0017/131165/Interstate_Residents_moving_NSW_FACT_SHEET_Dec_13.pdf

And there are no license require for Airsoft Replica and demilled firearms for collector in Hong Kong, while you need a license for both in Australia

Therefore I would say, the first application requirment is stricter in Australia

2.) Condition to Renew License

In Hong Kong

http://www.police.gov.hk/info/doc/licensing/arms/tc/als_C-1046.pdf

申請續期時，申請人必須出示管有權牌照，並提供以下文件：顯示在認可射擊會/潛水會/弩射會/體育會最新會籍狀況的文件；及 在過去12個月使用載列於牌照上的槍械進行（至少一次）射擊活動的記錄（須經由本地的持牌射擊會核實有關記錄）。

In Australia

http://www.police.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0019/131176/Participation_Requirements_for_Club_Members_-_June_2012_PDF_V1.2.pdf - Participate Requirement for License Condition - Australia

What are the participation requirements for Sport/Target Shooting club membership for pistols?

A licence holder who is a member of an approved pistol club must participate in at least 6 club organised competitive shooting matches over each period of 12 months that the licence is in force AND for each type of pistol you possess for different shooting events, you must undertake at least 4 club organised shoots.

My comment : 1 shoot in Hong Kong to renew a license which included all your firearms, against at least 6 shoots and 4 per each firearms in different category in NSW Australia, (so for 1 firearm you need to do 6 shoots, for 2, you the requirement goes up to 8 (4+4), and 3 for 12 (4+4+4) and so on)

I don't know how you see it but NSW seems to offer a harder deal

3. Condition of Firearms purchase

In Hong Kong - No addition application for each firearms

In NSW Australia - Individual Firearms are subject to separate application via NSW Firearms Registry

Purchasing a Firearm - NSW Police Online

A PTA (Permit To Acquire) are require for EACH SINGLE FIREARMS YOU INTEND TO PURCHASE

So for the condition to purchase firearms, Australia again seems to have tougher law.

To conclude:

Australia have a slightly tougher, mostly the same first application, tougher renewal requirement, tougher requirement to obtain individual firearms, also tougher rules to the type of firearms license holder can purchase.

I don't know how you can say Australia have a laxer gun law with respect to Hong Kong.

 

[Galad]

Notice how none of USA posters(apart of Gambit who basically fully endorse everyday murder of people by USA police) dare to comment about the murder cases courtesy of USA police.Notice how they do not even show their fake concerns about such out of proportion use of police force.

I know...Makes you wonder why so many people continues to come to the US. Maybe China could take the lead and prevent Chinese from coming to the US ?

In other words -you do not care at all about victims of brutal ,aggressive and out of control USA "police".No need of such weasel words.You are quite transparent.

 

[Hamartia Antidote]

American democracy police kills more U.S. civilians in 1 year than the terrorist do in 100 years. Makes you wonder.

yeah, how to figure out that "new math" of yours....

 

[Hamartia Antidote]

Notice how none of USA posters(apart of Gambit who basically fully endorse everyday murder of people by USA police) dare to comment about the murder cases courtesy of USA police.Notice how they do not even show their fake concerns about such out of proportion use of police force.

In other words -you do not care at all about victims of brutal ,aggressive and out of control USA "police".No need of such weasel words.You are quite transparent.

Hey thumbs up to the police! I have 3 living within 400 meters of my house. I'm not worried a bit.
Of course as in any profession you can have good and bad people. I have never seen an officer pull his gun out but I don't live in a high crime area so they have no reason to.

 

[jhungary]

Notice how none of USA posters(apart of Gambit who basically fully endorse everyday murder of people by USA police) dare to comment about the murder cases courtesy of USA police.Notice how they do not even show their fake concerns about such out of proportion use of police force.

In other words -you do not care at all about victims of brutal ,aggressive and out of control USA "police".No need of such weasel words.You are quite transparent.

lol, what to comment, would you comment on any legit shoot?

Or did your police do nothing but singing song with dangerous criminal?? Then you should be the one that have some comment.

 

[Zabaniyah]

American democracy police kills more U.S. civilians in 1 year than the terrorist do in 100 years. Makes you wonder.

lolwut?