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US Poised to Attack Extremists in FATA

This has left the secular and relatively liberal government of the province, led by the Awami National Party, with no choice but to form "defense committees" at the district level to organize civilians against a complete Taliban take-over.
They do have a choice - make sure they and the other 'liberal minded MPA's' from the PPP are on the same page, call a Provincial assembly session, and pass a resolution asking the Army to come in.

Ditto for the people in the NA, though understandably there will be complications there due to the presence of Nawas's Muslim League in sizable numbers, possibly defeating any such resolution, making any military action even less legitimate in the eyes of Pakistanis.

I wonder if the Saudis can be influenced by the US and GoP to pressure Nawaz to get in line.

As for the attacks, nothing bar predator attacks and target bombings ala 2007 in the near future (assuming things stay as they are - it is a volatile situation so something could happen to change the dynamics).

Too much is made of the possible 'thousands' more troops coming to Afghanistan after being freed in Iraq. Those troops are needed in Afghanistan first. For the US to expand into FATA without Pakistanis cooperation, it risks losing control in both Afghanistan and FATA. They would need more than the Soviets put in.

This war does not have a military solution, though military force is needed to quell the most hardline factions.

I like Muse's idea, of a possible second political Islamist party emerging out of the Taliban, one that is willing to forgo violence in exchange for a fair chance to participate in the political process. It would be a complex endeavor though, and one certain to come under attack from groups like the TTP, which would then result in a turf war.

It would also be hard to see such a groups emerge out of the Taliban without US participation in such talks, and mutual confidence over an eventual withdrawal and disavowing violence for the two parties respectively. More than the desire for an 'Islamic State', the US presence in Afghanistan is fuel for the insurgency due to ethnic and 'occupation' reasons.

Even Obama's message, when you read between the lines, is more nuanced than just 'bombing Pakistan'. In the end it has to be about a long term strategy to achieve peace in the region. But will the US go that route or risk it all for short term tactical gains - whose achievement through such action is itself dubious?
 
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"They do have a choice - make sure they and the other 'liberal minded MPA's' from the PPP are on the same page, call a Provincial assembly session, and pass a resolution asking the Army to come in."


This would require of Pakistani Pashtun Politicians to behave in the interests of Pakistan first - in other words, it's not gonna happen.

We have been hearing from Pakistanis that the answer is political, the US has now come aroun dto the same position -- however; it's not possible that the current political players in the opposition will or can play that role.

So, if the Talib cannot be the party the US and any Afghan govt it comes up with, can negotiate - who then?? And ofcourse it will take time to get a new political party off the ground in Afghanistan -- BUT, there are any number of new political parties in Afghanistan and it "do able".

The only problem I can see that may be difficult to deal with is the question of the US and NATO forces and why they are there and when they will leave -- this question is crucial and it is also a trap that the opposition will set for anyone willing to challenge them. The situation of Afghanistan is differnt from that of Iraq, there really isn't any party that does not want the US gone from Iraq, this is the great success of Iran, in Afghanistan, Pakistan has played a very different role than the one Iran has played in Iraq and Afghanistan is a continuous civil war, whereas Iraq wasn't - so US is seen as a party to the at civil war and how then, if at all, will US evacuate Afghanistan?
 
Anyone who understands the situation right now will realize that the US is NOT planning to attack Pakistan.

What it IS probably planning to do however, is expand the WOT into the Tribal regions of Pakistan.

Now whether you regard this as an attack on Pakistan or not, depends on your perception.
 
Anyone who understands the situation right now will realize that the US is NOT planning to attack Pakistan.

What it IS probably planning to do however, is expand the WOT into the Tribal regions of Pakistan.

Now whether you regard this as an attack on Pakistan or not, depends on your perception.

I regard it as an attack.

The FBI is so careful not to pursue criminals over the border to Mexico, how can they just invade like this?
 
The essential test of credibility for the "Pakistan First" policy is the willingness of Islamabad to enforce it as much against Washington as it should be against militancy within its borders . . . yes !?? :agree:

Great. Now can we accept that allowing US military excursions into and bombing of Pakistan is the equivalent of driving a tank through this policy and will pitch the government in Islamabad into a conflict with their own people and create a conducive environment where jihadists will take matters into their own hands!? The writ of the government will cease to exist in the heart of Islamabad . . . nevermind the tribal areas.

The first priority for a Pakistani government is to unite the people around its policy agenda. American considerations are, distinctly, secondary . . . :agree:
 
Incursion by US will spell disaster, says governor


PESHAWAR, July 20: Governor of the North-West Frontier Province has said that statements by American officials and politicians about possible military action in tribal areas of Pakistan are undermining the PPP-led coalition government.

Governor Owais Ghani said any incursion into Pakistan’s mountainous north-western tri-bal belt bordering Afghanistan would spark “disastrous” consequences for the whole world.

He singled out White House hopeful Barack Obama as issuing particularly damaging statements. “Candidate Obama gave these statements, I come out openly and say such statements undermine support, don’t do it,” Ghani told AFP in an interview in his official residence in Peshawar.

A spate of US missile strikes in Pakistan on Al Qaeda and Taliban hideouts in the tribal areas had also inflamed public sentiment against Islamabad’s role in the US-led “war on terror,” said Ghani, who oversees anti-militancy policies in NWFP and the adjoining Federally Administered Tribal Areas.

The strikes added to the economic and political woes facing the parties that beat allies of US-backed President Pervez Musharraf in elections in February.

“I think they are being short-sighted and they are being unrealistic,” said Ghani, a key Musharraf lieutenant, referring to Obama and other US officials.

“What the allies and the world must understand is that no government, whether political or military, can remain involved in this global war on terrorism unless the majority of public sentiment backs it,” he said.

“These strikes are undermining that, but even the statements are, too.”

Pakistan’s government has been under international pressure since launching peace negotiations with Taliban commanders in March.

US President George W. Bush said last week he would discuss the cross-border movement of extremists with Pakistan’s Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani in Washington this month.

Last week Obama had said that “if Pakistan cannot or will not act, we will take out high-level terrorist targets like (Osama) bin Laden if we have them in our sights.”

The New York Times reported last month that the US administration last year drew up a plan making it easier for US special forces to act in Pakistan’s tribal belt, but internal rows kept it from getting the green light.

“It would be disastrous,” Ghani said, when asked about the possibility of such US action. “It won’t do any good for anybody, not for the world, not to Afghanistan, not to Pakistan.”

He warned, however, that not only would Pakistan defend its sovereignty, but that thousands of ethnic Pakhtun tribesmen along the border would rise up to expel any foreign troops.

“These are fighters, let me tell you,” the governor said. “Superpowers have underestimated them, the British, the Soviets, and I hope nobody makes the same mistake again.”Ghani, who took a hard line against rebels in his last job as governor of Balochistan province, said the best solution remained Pakistan’s long-standing proposal to fence the border.

The root causes of the insurgency lay in Afghanistan’s political situation, heroin production and in the continuing presence of foreign troops, Ghani said, adding, however, that an Iraq-style “surge” in Afghanistan could work.

“If it is accompanied by a parallel political strategy... yes,” he said.

“Once it’s on that path then they can decide how to disengage.”

The governor said Pakistan’s policy of negotiations was working, although he insisted that the government was only talking to tribal elders and not to militants.“I tell our allies, ‘Look, if you have better ideas, put them on the table’,” he said.---AFP

Incursion by US will spell disaster, says governor -DAWN - Top Stories; July 21, 2008

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“I think they are being short-sighted and they are being unrealistic,”

Absolutely correct.

The repercussions would be that all the Tribes would and up uniting against them, whether they agree with the Taliban's ideology or not, and you would have an unending stream of volunteers, religious, secular and everything in between, from NWFP proper and the rest of Pakistan. As it is the insurgency against NATO in Afghanistan has gained an ethnic and religious (War against Islam, not taliban) dimension. That sentiment would only continue to gain more traction.

The fight against the US would be justified and legitimized in the eyes of an overwhelming majority of Pakistanis, and I can guarantee the PA is going to do nothing to stop it.

In terms of internal stability, the anger amongst the Pashtun in Pakistan, at the very least, is going to go through the roof. NATO is going to inflict collateral damage, and tons of it, just as they are doing in Afghanistan.

This sentiment would find itself replicated in the ranks of the PA, and it will be extremely hard for the leadership to sit back and allow both transgression on Pakistan's territory, and the killing of innocent civilians. If the Gillani government allows this, it will fall.

However, the military will not allow it and I doubt if any civilian government with an interest in any future in Pakistani politics will have the cojones to allow it. For the Federation to willfully allow the murder of innocent Pashtun men, women and children by an external threat will mean that it loses all rights to govern them. It will be the beginning of the dismemberment of Pakistan.

It will therefore be time to end our relationship with the US as it is structured currently.

Hopefully our politicians will realize that along with ensuring that the Federation has a responsibility to protect its members from external threats, it also has a responsibility to protect them from internal threats - and they need to get moving on controlling the internal one really quickly.

This war has to be fought as Pakistan's war, and one that Pakistan is fighting for its own good, and our politicians need to get together to project that unity of purpose and lead the country.
 
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Will the US be stupid enough to try this?

Why not?

US history is replete with examples of policies that have had disastrous long term consequences. The bloody returns of these polices litter the globe from Latin America to Asia. The Neocons under Bush have clearly indicated that theirs is a small mind, incapable of grasping global cultural and political complexities, quite 'Neanderthal-ic' in its capabilities for deep analysis really.

Well....if they're gonna reduce their involvement in Iraq....Haliburton's gotta make a buck from somewhere. I dont think they're nearly as dumb as you think...Cheney's stock options in Haliburton have gone up by over 3000% during the "Iraqi quagmire" and that company has made a KILLING figuratively and literally. Such consistency, or as you put it "examples of policies that have had disastrous long term consequences.", should not be so easily dismissed as being attributable to simple-mindedness...or "awe shucks we screwed up again".
 
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Mr. Obama has created such an environment leading to the elections that Republicans are forced to show that they are serious in war on terror. To demonstrate their will they might have to do some thing in our tribal areas. My guess is that in Mid August or September they shall make the move. Should they rely solely on air power or send troops into tribal areas is some thing they are presently working on.

If they don't counter Mr. Obama then they might have a poor showing in the elections. By doing this if they create another mess that I think is not in the back of their mind. Remember when they were loosing in Vietnam instead of pulling out they invaded Cambodia and widened the war. This is what they might attempt again.
 
Unilateral action by U.S. a growing fear in Pakistan - International Herald Tribune
ISLAMABAD, Pakistan: Strong suggestions by the United States that it could resort to unilateral intervention against Al Qaeda and the Taliban in Pakistan are generating increasing anxiety in the Pakistani press and among government officials, who warn that such an action could backfire.

Over the last week, the Pakistani press has been filled with commentaries warning that American attacks without Pakistan's permission would further inflame anti-American sentiment, drive more people into the camp of the militants and fatally undermine the already fragile civilian government. Privately, one senior government official said American strikes would produce "chaos."

But the English-language newspapers have also stressed that the Pakistani government has failed to deal with the Islamic militants, and they have made repeated pleas in recent days for the government and the military to take on the militants before Washington does the job, uninvited.
"What is missing and is urgently required in Islamabad is a coherent policy" for dealing with the militants in the tribal areas, said one in a series of recent editorials in a leading newspaper, Dawn. The editorial continued: "The world and all of Pakistan is looking to Islamabad for leadership and vision. The time to act is running out very quickly."

Washington has increased the pressure in the past 10 days, asserting in public statements and closed-door meetings with senior Pakistani officials that the increase in the number of Pakistani Taliban fighters crossing from the tribal areas into Afghanistan to fight NATO and American forces was unacceptable.

A spike in deaths of United States and NATO soldiers in Afghanistan in the last two months has been largely attributed by American officials to the flow of Pakistani Taliban into southern Afghanistan.

American officials have also emphasized to Pakistani officials their concern that Al Qaeda was plotting attacks on the United States from sanctuaries in the tribal areas, a region of rugged territory adjacent to Afghanistan that is now almost totally controlled by the Pakistani Taliban.

President George W. Bush said at a White House news conference last week that "some extremists are coming out of parts of Pakistan into Afghanistan." He added, "That's troubling to us, troubling to Afghanistan, and it should be troubling to Pakistan." Such statements have been interpreted here as a sign of rising American impatience with a lack of action to stem the tide of militants by the Pakistani government.

Senator Barack Obama, the presumptive Democratic nominee for president, said on Sunday, while visiting Afghanistan, that if the United States had "actionable intelligence against high-value Al Qaeda targets, and the Pakistani government was unwilling to go after those targets," the United States should strike. Obama, of Illinois, has been viewed warily in Pakistan because of similar previous comments.

Alarm in Pakistan about possible American intervention rose after a surprise visit July 12 by the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Admiral Mike Mullen, to Islamabad, where he met with the army chief of staff, General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani; the prime minister, Yousaf Raza Gilani; and the president, Pervez Musharraf.

It was Mullen's fourth visit in six months to see the nation's leaders. Days afterward, reports about a buildup of NATO forces on the border between Afghanistan and Pakistan added to Pakistani anxiety.
A senior Pakistani government official familiar with the content of the meetings with Mullen, who declined to be identified because public statements were not released, said the admiral was informed that unilateral action by the United States would be "counterproductive" and would result in "chaos."

But the Americans did not recognize the downside of intervention, the official said. "They don't see that," the official said. "They have tunnel vision. They see more foreign fighters pouring in, more training, more cross-border attacks."

The Americans were right in their assessment that more fighters from Uzbekistan, Saudi Arabia and Egypt, and a "spurt of Turks," had come to the tribal areas to join the Taliban since the Pakistani government entered into a peace accord with the leader of the Pakistani Taliban, Baitullah Mehsud, this spring, the official acknowledged.

The official said the Pakistanis had asked Mullen for infusions of military equipment and the sharing of real-time intelligence, demands made many times to visiting Americans in the past six months.

The frequent request by the Pakistanis for the sharing of current intelligence has been refused by the Bush administration because Washington lacked confidence in what the Pakistani military might do with the information, according to a former United States military officer who served in Pakistan and spoke on condition of anonymity because of the delicate nature of the situation.

The Bush administration has given more than $10 billion in military aid to Pakistan since 9/11, when President Musharraf agreed to become an ally in the campaign against terrorism. Of that amount, $5.5 billion was specifically intended for counterinsurgency efforts by the Pakistani Army. A U.S. congressional report this year said that Pakistan did not spend the $5.5 billion on counterinsurgency, and that the Bush administration had failed to insist that it do so.

"Improve our capability — you've been slow on that," the Pakistani official said, describing the gist of the recent conversation with Admiral Mullen. "We are fighting a war here. But the army is geared to peacetime."
In unusually blunt terms, some of the commentaries in recent days in the Pakistani English-language press have disputed that the army has actually been fighting the Taliban or Al Qaeda at all.

Hasan-Askari Rizvi, a defense analyst, wrote in Sunday's issue of The Daily Times, a newspaper, that many in Pakistan's military and intelligence leadership did not view the Taliban and other Islamic extremists as the main threat to the Pakistani state

"They view Taliban violence as a reaction to the use of force against them by Pakistan and the U.S., rather than a strategy to establish their hegemony in the name of Islam," he said.
It was understandable that American commanders would want to take unilateral action against the Taliban, Rizvi wrote. But there was "no guarantee that such an action would eliminate militancy in the area," he warned.
"Rather, it may worsen the situation and increase American losses," he said.
In Washington, a new report on Pakistan by Daniel Markey, a senior fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations, cautioned against uninvited intervention in Pakistan.
"The U.S. military would find Pakistan's tribal areas extremely tough going," he said. "The primary challenge would come not from the militants or terrorists but from the rest of Pakistan's 165 million people and army."

He concluded, "Under almost any conceivable circumstance, the overwhelming majority of Pakistanis would perceive a U.S. invasion of the tribal areas as an attack on national sovereignty requiring resistance by every means possible."
 
The point that we are not clear even at this point is who should we stand up against? The militants or the US. Both IMO poses equal challenge to our security and we need to make a very narrow decision on which our future will rely on. US is keen on to destabilize Pakistan because for them, the only thing they see is their own interest and to hell with all the rest. Pakistan cannot go all ballistic over the local tailban because not all are working against the state and also considering the amount of hostility and anti Pakistan activity the current Afghan regime is conducting, we cannot afford to keep an eye off it. IMO we should tell the US in plain and simple words that the way we are handling things in the tribal area with carrot and stick policy is the only way it is going to be and if you think you cannot accept it then its your headache and not ours but we will not go all military and neither will we let you do it and if you tend to ignore these warnings and decided to attack Pakistan then you have just turned a nation of over one billion people as your enemy. There is no bail out to this situation and no short term answer either. Its like they say your way or the high way.
 
The point that we are not clear even at this point is who should we stand up against? The militants or the US.

Both.

The pose two different challenges.

The US demanding to come into FATA is a huge risk in terms of destabilizing the country beyond control, it is therefore an external threat - it should not be allowed to happen.

The various Taliban groups attacking the State and challenging its writ (such as the TTP) pose an internal threat that needs to be addressed - through direct military action or preferably through empowering other groups that are not anti-state and/or the Tribes. The Taliban groups that are not anti-state will then have to be persuaded to give up arms and possibly emerge as an Islamist political force, that can compete with the other political parties.

Trying to eradicate them completely through just the PA is not the solution - the popularity of the Muslim brotherhood in Egypt, and the length of the Algerian crisis indicate that you need to redirect these forces (they do have a strong ideological underpinning that resonates with many, even if only in the most basic expression of its goals) into a non-violent process where they feel they have a fair chance at succeeding.
 
What will happen if the US actually attack?

Leaving aside the sheer absurdity of such a move, and its implications on regional stability and the complete lack of any long term benefits, its not happening Salim, not without the GoP or/and military's implicit or explicit approval.

Implicit or explicit approval for a military incursion will not be given, more of what happened in the past is what is likely to continue.

Having NATO come in is in fact worse than the PA going hammer and tong at the Taliban, caring naught for collateral damage.

The war of words between the TTP and the ANP in NWFP is interesting to observe in this context. In the face of the TTP 'deadline' The ANP seems to have thrown down the gauntlet, that if the Taliban do not lay down arms, then the provincial government has the right to use military force.

The ops. in Hangu have also so far not been criticized by any of the liberal parties, or in the press AFAIK, IMO indicating that support might be building behind the move.

The GoP will most likely act itself, before NATO is allowed in. However, it will be interesting to see what comes out of Gillani's meeting with Bush. Gillani himself has been making a last ditch effort to try and get the Tribes to act on their own, and some agreements have been concluded.
 
What will happen if the US actually attack?

What would happen to US if she attacks Pakistan? We being a front line ally in WoT prevented repetition of atleast two major attacks a la 9/11 on US soil by providing intelligence.
Who's going to protect America and her citizens if she loses a friend like Pakistan?
 
Who's going to protect America and her citizens if she loses a friend like Pakistan?

Does US consider Pakistan a friend at all?:undecided: Atleast i don't think so. US is bent on to destabilize Pakistan first covertly and now openly. So while we have a talban threat going on inside, we have another one rising on the border. That is why i mentioned in my previous post, that at this stage we need to set our priorities straight and be clear about, "who are we up against" The US or the tailban or perhaps both.
 
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