US & NATO Behind Rabbani Assassination?

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

On enemy of my enemy is my friend - How did that first enemy become an enemy? I mean, how is it that the US became enemy of the Taliban? The US had not attacked the Taliban till the moment Taliban flatly denied giving up on Osama, and got itself readied to go through all the war, for Osama in particular.

The Taliban acted appropriately - they did raise the offer of having OBL and Co. tried in a third country, but there was little to no chance given to a negotiated settlement of the issue by the US, with the warmongers carrying the day.

Are you really saying that for almost no reason the Taliban hosted Al Qaeda and made an even bitter enemy out of the most powerful entity on this planet?

OBL was being 'hosted' on Afghan and Pakistan soil while the US was funneling resources to the Afghan Jihad, and OBL built loyalty and support through his own contributions to the Afghan Jihad. OBL also initially denied that he was involved in the 9/11 attacks.

The US should have given negotiations more of a chance, rather than rushing into war.

 

[VCheng]

There has been plenty of time for your comment to be shown as 'fact', and the 'fact' is that it has not.

The end game is still not in play. Just give it time to be implemented fully.

Those contributions support the argument that the ISI was not involved in any of those acts.

Those contributions were done part because there was not other choice, and thus are not proof of a lack of involvement.

Correct, but if we are too be on the 'losing side', then might as well do it on our terms and at least act in a manner that allows Pakistan to influence the situation in its neighborhood, which has many magnitudes greater repercussions for Pakistan than for the US, which sits thousands of miles away.

To go down fighting would be noble, but pointless. Better to change direction and survive.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

AM, I would like you to take a note of how international relations work. It is always less about proof, and more about knowledge/intel. Whenever any attack originated from the land of Pakistan, ISI's part has been more than often looked for. It is not an exception, rather a norm that whatever country an attack comes from, the intelligence agency's involvement is first thing to look for.

But that kind of knowledge cannot be made public, because if it is made public, then the public will shout out to go for a war against that nation - Pakistan in this case. And for a long time, the US needed Pakistan in different ways for different purposes, so the US had to deliberately overlook such involvements.

However, such involvements are always talked, discussed, and deliberated upon in closed door meetings. In more than one, very grave occasions, ISI's name was mentioned. And each time the answerable officers denied any involvement (of the ISI) but at the same time asked for a closed door briefing on the same (ISI's involvement).

I am sorry, but all that the above amounts to is an argument in favor of unsubstantiated speculation and allegations. There are reports in the Pakistani press regarding US support for the terrorist attacks out of Eastern Afghanistan into Pakistan, as well as US/UK support for Sunni/Baluch terrorist violence in Iran and Pakistani Baluchistan. Your argument should then allow us to treat the accusations against the US/UK similar to those against the ISI.

One such case was ISI Chief's facilitating the transfer of the sum of $100,000 to Mohammad Atta through Sheikh Saeed. The FBI officer investigating the financials, while denying the ISI's involvement, quickly asked for a closed door briefing.

A perfect example of rumor, unsubstantiated speculation and at times outright distortions becoming the dominant narrative, swallowed by the masses hook, line and sinker - I'll post my rebuttal to this in the next post.

it was revealed to the public that the ISI had full knowledge of fund transfer to Faisal Shahzad for all his efforts to explode a bomb on Time's Square.

Credible sources supporting that allegation, or more distortions and poor reporting like the 'ISI fund transfer to Mohammed Atta' story??

So you see, it is not the conspiratorial mindset, rather keeping things under wrap and not disclosing anything until there's any need. Non-disclosure of any such info does not mean they have closed their eyes to it. They just keep it that way to get their work done where Pakistan's participation becomes indispensable.

And rather than engaging in mental gymnastics to come up with an excuse to explain away the lack of substantiation for the allegations, it is more likely that the allegations have nothing supporting them, and are merely part of 'pressure tactics' against Pakistan.

The enemy is not imaginary, and has been there for a long time now.

Which does not substantiate US accusations ...

Don't you think most of these captures/killings were less out of PA's own conviction, and more because it was under immense pressure from the US?

No, why? What does Pakistan have to gain from Al Qaeda and AQ's attacks on the US? While Pakistan's support for the Taliban in Afghanistan (stability, influence and a pro-Pakistan regime) and insurgents in IAK have strong motives, support for AQ, especially attacks by AQ on Western interests, have no benefit for Pakistan, and serve no Pakistani interest.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Confirming the ISI-Atta Link​

The story...

The claim that ISI chief Mehmood Ahmed ordered Omar Sheikh to transfer $100,000 to Mohammed Atta has been confirmed by the FBI, and many other sources.

Our take...

A number of techniques and sources have been used in an attempt to say the Atta-ISI link has been officially confirmed, but not all of them are entirely as they seem. As ever, it pays to check up the sources provided in any article, to see if it really does back up any claim the author is making.

Nafeez Ahmed, for instance, gives us the following report in The War On Truth:

The Pakistani newspaper Dawn cited “informed sources” in Pakistan confirming that “Director General of Pakistan’s Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) Lt Gen Mahmud Ahmed has been replaced after the FBI investigators established credible links between him and Umar Sheikh.” When the FBI traced calls made between Gen. Mahmoud Ahmad and Ahmed Omar Sheikh Saeed’s cellular phone, a pattern linking the ISI chief with Sheikh clearly emerged. The US intelligence community believed that “it was at General Mahmud’s instruction that Sheikh had transferred 100,000 US dollars into the account of Mohammed Atta.” 18
Page 139, Chapter 6
The War On Truth
Nafeez Ahmed​

Sounds like a detailed confirmation of all the key details in the Times of India story, right? But now let’s look at the exact Dawn report:

Gen Mahmud’s exit due to links with Umar Sheikh

By Monitoring Desk

NEW DELHI, Oct 8: Director General of Pakistan’s Inter- Services Intelligence (ISI) Lt Gen Mahmud Ahmed has been replaced after the FBI investigators established credible links between him and Umar Sheikh, one of the three militants released in exchange for passengers of the hijacked Indian Airlines plane in 1999.

The FBI team, which had sought adequate inputs about various terrorists including Sheikh from the intelligence agencies, was working on the linkages between Sheikh and former ISI chief Gen Mahmud which are believed to have been substantiated, reports PTI website.

Informed sources said there were enough indications with the US intelligence agencies that it was at Gen Mahmud’s instruction that Sheikh had transferred 100,000 US dollars into the account of Mohammed Atta, one of the lead terrorists in strikes at the World Trade Centre on Sept 11, it adds.
Archives DAWN.COM | Latest news, Breaking news, Pakistan News, world news, business, sport and multimedia.​

Yes, that’s the full story. We’ve not edited it at all.

Note first that this is from the “Monitoring Desk”. This is normally about watching the media and printing articles of interest that appear elsewhere, not necessarily investigating it yourself. Which would suggest that Dawn were simply reproducing the original story (as they use a New Delhi byline), not independently verifying it at all.

And a look at the allegations in the story seems to confirm that interpretation. At the end of the second paragraph, Dawn make it clear they’re reporting an allegation on from the “PTI website”. And the “it adds” at the end of the third paragraph shows that, again, they’re just quoting that story (and so Nafeez Ahmed’s claim that “informed sources” in Pakistan confirmed the ISI-Atta story may be incorrect, as it could just be referring to the Indian sources we know already).

So what is the “PTI website”? Dawn don’t say, but our best guess would be the Press Trust of India (Home), a top Indian news agency. If so, that would suggest the PTI carried an early version of the story around the 7th of October, Dawn reproduced it on the 8th, then the India Times ran their fuller version, complete with talk of tracing Sheikh’s mobile phone calls, on the 9th. We can’t verify that, unfortunately (the PTI site doesn’t have a searchable archive), but even if we’re wrong it’s clear that Dawn are not offering the independent confirmation of the ISI-Atta link that Nafeez Ahmed claims.

Fortunately Ahmed has another highly-placed source for us to consider.

The Wall Street Journal also cited “senior government sources” in the United States who confirmed that Gen. Mahmoud was ordered to resign due to the evidence of his wiring $100,000 to chief hijacker Atta.
Page 139, Chapter 6
The War On Truth
Nafeez Ahmed​

The Wall Street Journal? Very impressive, but again, let’s look at what they actually said.

Our Friends the Pakistanis
Yesterday we noted a report from a Pakistani newspaper that Lt. Gen. Mahmud Ahmad had been fired as head of Islamabad's Inter-Services Security agency after U.S. linked him to a militant allied with terrorists who hijacked an Indian Airlines plane in 1999. Now the Times of India says Ahmad is connected to the Sept. 11 attacks:

Top sources confirmed here on Tuesday, that the general lost his job because of the "evidence" India produced to show his links to one of the suicide bombers that wrecked the World Trade Centre. The US authorities sought his removal after confirming the fact that $100,000 were wired to WTC hijacker Mohammed Atta from Pakistan by Ahmad Umar Sheikh at the instance of Gen Mahumd.

Senior government sources have confirmed that India contributed significantly to establishing the link between the money transfer and the role played by the dismissed ISI chief. While they did not provide details, they said that Indian inputs, including Sheikh's mobile phone number, helped the FBI in tracing and establishing the link​

.Opinion & Commentary - Wall Street Journal - Wsj.com
​

Is this looking familiar?

First, this comes from a page entitled “OpinionJournal - Best of the Web Today”. It’s about reproducing news from elsewhere, not producing stories yourselves.

And second, it’s quite clearly commenting on the Times of India story. In fact, everything after “Now the Times of India says Ahmad is connected to the Sept. 11 attacks” is a quote from the Times. Check the original version yourself:

Top sources confirmed here on Tuesday, that the General lost his job because of the "evidence" India produced to show his links to one of the suicide bombers that wrecked the World Trade Centre. The US authorities sought his removal after confirming the fact that $100,000 were wired to WTC hijacker Mohammed Atta from Pakistan by Ahmad Umar Sheikh at the instance of Gen Mahumd.

Senior government sources have confirmed that India contributed significantly to establishing the link between the money transfer and the role played by the dismissed ISI chief. While they did not provide details, they said that Indian inputs, including Sheikh’s mobile phone number, helped the FBI in tracing and establishing the link.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cms.dll/articleshow?art_id=1454238160​

There’s no independent investigation or verification here. And so when Nafeez Ahmed says”The Wall Street Journal also cited “senior government sources” in the United States”, you can forget the “also” -- they’re just repeating the same claims.

Ahmed presses on regardless, though.

German intelligence has also confirmed the transaction.
Page 139, Chapter 6
The War On Truth
Nafeez Ahmed
​

This is cleverly written, because you may well take it to mean “they’ve confirmed that Sheikh was asked by the ISI chief to send $100,000 to Atta”, but that’s not the case at all. As we point out on this page, the German “confirmation” story doesn’t pin responsibility on the ISI at all, let alone its chief, and also features a “senior Indian intelligence official” saying how even this information is “very speculative”.

Nafeez Ahmed has still another account, however.
...

Read the rest at:

Confirming the ISI-Atta link

 

[VCheng]

.................
No, why? What does Pakistan have to gain from Al Qaeda and AQ's attacks on the US? While Pakistan's support for the Taliban in Afghanistan (stability, influence and a pro-Pakistan regime) and insurgents in IAK have strong motives, support for AQ, especially attacks by AQ on Western interests, have no benefit for Pakistan, and serve no Pakistani interest.

The insurgents in Afghanistan cut loose by the US after the collapse of the USSR were nurtured by the ISI as a tool to further their goals in Kashmir, not realizing that the monster they had taken in will, in time, not listen to them and turn against USA, and create mayhem within Pakistan too.

After 9/11, the ISI created this division of the "good" and the "bad" Taliban, hoping to salvage their original strategy. Even that is now headed for abject failure.

 

[VCheng]

self deleted.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

The insurgents in Afghanistan cut loose by the US after the collapse of the USSR were nurtured by the ISI as a tool to further their goals in Kashmir, not realizing that the monster they had taken in will, in time, not listen to them and turn against USA, and create mayhem within Pakistan too.

After 9/11, the ISI created this division of the "good" and the "bad" Taliban, hoping to salvage their original strategy. Even that is now headed for abject failure.

None of the above addresses my argument against the allegation of ISI support for AQ attacks on Western interests either before or after the 9/11 attacks.

 

[VCheng]

None of the above addresses my argument against the allegation of ISI support for AQ attacks on Western interests either before or after the 9/11 attacks.

Fair enough, let us treat the present situation as mere allegations against the ISI, and await further developments that will likely clarify the role it may, or may not, have played.

 

[Bhairava]

Look at this video, the once proud Wazirs are left with their mouth open while the arabs are throwing them around like sheeps. Ofcourse whatever the arab says is out of Quran and nobody dares question them...

WTF man.....!!! Is that Taliban kidnapping common people @ 1:30 and 2:40 ..?

So sad !

 

[Developereo]

The US handling of Afghanistan (and Pakistan) becomes much easier to understand if one remembers that their number one foreign policy objective is China containment. This war on terror is just a red herring.

It explains why the US was never interested in talking with the Taliban post 9/11 -- the invasion and placement of American troops was predetermined. It also explains why cutting Pakistan down to size is imperative to American plans. The Americans felt it would be a slam dunk to prop up a pro-India government in Afghanistan based on Northern Alliance and others.

Unfortunately for them, Pakistan intelligence knew exactly what game was afoot and have managed to thwart their plans. The Americans are just being sore losers.

 

[Bhairava]

The US handling of Afghanistan (and Pakistan) becomes much easier to understand if one remembers that their number one foreign policy objective is China containment. This war on terror is just a red herring.

Implying 9/11 was an inside job.

Unfortunately for them, Pakistan intelligence knew exactly what game was afoot and have managed to thwart their plans. The Americans are just being sore losers.

Victors and losers are decided only after the game is over....and the game aint over.The Americans are very well capable of creating a Pyrrhic victory for Pakistan

 

[Developereo]

Implying 9/11 was an inside job.

Not needed. But why let a good opportunity go to waste?

Victors and losers are decided only after the game is over....and the game aint over.The Americans are very well capable of creating a Pyrrhic victory for Pakistan

American withdrawal without a pro-India puppet regime in Afghanistan will be victory enough for Pakistan.

 

[Bhairava]

Not needed. But why let a good opportunity go to waste?

Then you got to congratulate them for taking use of any chances to further their national interest. Just like Pakitan utilised the bloodshed in Afghanistan to prop up the Taliban.

American withdrawal without a pro-India puppet regime in Afghanistan will be victory enough for Pakistan.

That's why I said , if they are withdrawing completely (which I think is not going to happen given the talk about permanent bases) they will make sure to create conditions that Pakistan does not see any victory in that.

 

[Solomon2]

I think it was the Martians that did it. They obviously hate Afghans and Pakistanis because they send no military aid to either country, nor engage in any charitable activities. Murdering Rabbani kept attention away from that fact. Thus the Martians benefit.

So it's perfectly obvious that the Martians MUST have done it. There is no need to consider any other facts; they would merely be insignificant details.

 

[Porus]

The US handling of Afghanistan (and Pakistan) becomes much easier to understand if one remembers that their number one foreign policy objective is China containment. This war on terror is just a red herring.

It explains why the US was never interested in talking with the Taliban post 9/11 -- the invasion and placement of American troops was predetermined. It also explains why cutting Pakistan down to size is imperative to American plans. The Americans felt it would be a slam dunk to prop up a pro-India government in Afghanistan based on Northern Alliance and others.

Unfortunately for them, Pakistan intelligence knew exactly what game was afoot and have managed to thwart their plans. The Americans are just being sore losers.

Indians are really lucky to have friends who have almost brought their country to the brink of financial collapse and losing precious lives every day just to make sure that a pro India government is calling shots in Kabul once they leave Afghanistan. And if the Americans are really relying upon Indians to containing the Chinese then these cowboys really are the numpties of the highest order.