US must convince India to move troops from LoC

[Energon]

This is why I specifically pointed out that militarily denuding the LoC was not what was being suggested, since infiltration would obviously be an issue on both sides, especially India.

A likely proposal would be the withdrawal on both sides of forces that could be utilized for offensive action across the LoC, which would not affect the IA's ability to interdict infiltrators.

The Indian armed forces since 2002 have adopted standardized mixed formations, I´m not really sure there´s much they can do at this point to diminish their offensive capabilities, nor do I think (fairly certain actually) they have the necessary monetary resources to reorient their force structure all over again.

In addition, '50 infiltrators' is not 'huge', as some here seem to be going into histrionics over, and the fact that barely 300 to 800 active insurgents remain in Kashmir is a strong testament to Pakistan's policy of restraint and preventing infiltrations since 2002.

Insurgencies and cross border infiltrations have been specifically refined to exact vast amounts of damage through a small number of militants who "melt away" into an embattled local population and unleash a metastatic chain of violence.

This is also a matter of perspective; what you constantly label as "histrionics" is in fact a very real, damaging and dangerous threat for the victim state who at the end of the day have to absorb the direct costs of the violence. With all due respect, as long as India is the designated recipient of this insurgency where statistically the threat remains imminent, their perspective on the dangers they face trumps all other opinions.

With the sort of carnage even a small number of terrorists who are able to infiltrate inhabited areas can orchestrate (as evinced by countless incidences not only in Kashmir but increasingly in other parts of India), 50 is quite a large number that needs to set off every possible alarm bell.

At the end of the day, nobody outside of Pakistan can provide assurances and guarantees as enticement to coax action upon very serious internal issues.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Pakistan asks Obama to get first India pull back its forces
​

Updated at: 1425 PST, Tuesday, May 05, 2009
WASHINGTON: On the eve of a tripartite regional summit meeting, Pakistan has asked U.S. President Barack Obama to get India pull back its forces from the country's eastern border before making demands on Islamabad to move its troops to fight militants along its western border with Afghanistan.

According to The Washington Post Global, Pakistan's ambassador in Washington argued that if the U.S. really wants Pakistani army to move troops from the Indian border to the tribal areas, as U.S. officials often say, then it should get the Indians to reduce their military forces.

"It's time for Obama to put in a call to the Indians telling them, 'If you move some of your troops, they'll move theirs," Husain Haqqani said, a day ahead of President Asif Ali Zardari's meeting with President Barack Obama and a trilateral meeting also engaging Afghanistan

Pakistan asks Obama to get first India pull back its forces

Haqqani has been pushing this message on the networks as well - caught him on CNN this morning making the same point.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Haqqani's interview on CNN:

Video - Breaking News Videos from CNN.com

Protecting Pakistan's nukes

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Insurgencies and cross border infiltrations have been specifically refined to exact vast amounts of damage through a small number of militants who "melt away" into an embattled local population and unleash a metastatic chain of violence.

My argument was in the context of the historic size of the insurgency and an Indian military and paramilitary presence of over half a million designed to act against an insurgency in the thousands with active support from the other party in the Kashmir dispute.

In that respect the laments over 30 odd infiltrators does seem over the top.

Reports of terrorist infiltration into J&K exaggerated: Home Ministry

New Delhi: The Union Home Ministry on Wednesday termed the media reports stating large scale infiltration of armed militants in Gurez Sector of Jammu and Kashmir as “exaggerated,” while clarifying that the actual level of infiltrators is less than one third of the figures widely reported.
Reports of terrorist infiltration into J&K exaggerated: Home Ministry - National News ? News ? MSN India - News

 

[Solomon2]

It reads like this is part of the process to appease the Taliban, making India pull back, giving Pakistan the opportunity to infiltrate terrorists into Kashmir. We know the Taliban offered to stop fighting the PA in case fighting with India broke out, and the GoP seems to be getting desperate.

 

[Kasrkin]

"The Indian armed forces since 2002 have adopted standardized mixed formations, I´m not really sure there´s much they can do at this point to diminish their offensive capabilities, nor do I think (fairly certain actually) they have the necessary monetary resources to reorient their force structure all over again..."

The IBGs you are referring to are designed to be offensive in nature, but the Indian Military is far from achieving the full services integration envisioned by their ambitious Cold Start program. The infrastructure required to place this Indian offensive capacity close to the LoC and the border has not been developed, neither have their equipment deficiencies been addressed, yet. Indian military doctrine is therefore fairly confused and ambiguous at the moment. Any other country in the world would not have tolerated, and would fiercely counter diplomatically at least, any plans by their rivals to station a dozen heavy and undeniably offensive orientated military formations across the border permanently. But Pakistan obviously lacks the diplomatic muscles or a political leadership sufficiently concerned about the country’s national security. However AM’s proposal of withdrawing offensive elements is still a responsible and viable course for reducing much danger and worry for all. The fact that the Indians are disinclined to purse a constructive and peaceful long term policy is obviously a different matter…

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

It reads like this is part of the process to appease the Taliban, making India pull back, giving Pakistan the opportunity to infiltrate terrorists into Kashmir. We know the Taliban offered to stop fighting the PA in case fighting with India broke out, and the GoP seems to be getting desperate.

I don't think it reads anything like that unless you have an overactive imagination.

As I said at the beginning of this thread, no one is talking about denuding the LoC.

 

[Rabbit.Rabbit]

Why doesn't Pak ask India directly? Why go through uncle sam?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Why doesn't Pak ask India directly? Why go through uncle sam?

Did you miss the part about India refusing to restart the bilateral dialog?

Pre-Mumbai your point would have made sense.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

India holds war exercises near Pakistan border​

NEW DELHI (updated on: May 05, 2009, 19:30 PST): The Indian military said Tuesday it has held large-scale military exercises involving its main strike corps close to the Pakistan border.

The three-day manoeuvres, code-named Hind Shakti ('Indian Power'), were held in the arid plains of northern Punjab state and wrapped up on Tuesday, officials said.

"The exercise entailed participation by mechanised and infantry divisions in a blitzkrieg type armoured incursion," emphasising "rapid penetration into enemy territory," the defence ministry said in a statement.

Officials said the exercises involved the elite Kharga Corps and that similar war games by India's two remaining strike units were also being planned.

"The manoeuvres will factor in various scenarios, including the worsening situation in our neighbourhood," a Kharga Corps commander told AFP.

The exercises come amid increasing concern between India and Pakistan.

Last month the Indian government blame the crisis across the border was a threat to the entire region

India holds war exercises near Pakistan border : Business Recorder | LATEST NEWS

 

[maverick2009]

The Indian armed forces since 2002 have adopted standardized mixed formations, I´m not really sure there´s much they can do at this point to diminish their offensive capabilities, nor do I think (fairly certain actually) they have the necessary monetary resources to reorient their force structure all over again..."

KASRKIN.

What do you mean by this statement.

1. India does not have enough heavey equipment for cold start.

2. Not equipped for insurgency warfare.

3. That there $30 biillion a year defense budget is too small

4. That there planned $100 billion defense spend between 2007 & 2017 IS INSUFFICUENT to prepare for Cold Start.

Its a sweeping statement but rather contradicts the massive spending by the military that we are all witnessing by india which incidently has only just started in the last few years but will continue to grow year in year out for decade to come..

 

[Energon]

"The Indian armed forces since 2002 have adopted standardized mixed formations, I´m not really sure there´s much they can do at this point to diminish their offensive capabilities, nor do I think (fairly certain actually) they have the necessary monetary resources to reorient their force structure all over again..."

The IBGs you are referring to are designed to be offensive in nature, but the Indian Military is far from achieving the full services integration envisioned by their ambitious Cold Start program. The infrastructure required to place this Indian offensive capacity close to the LoC and the border has not been developed, neither have their equipment deficiencies been addressed, yet. Indian military doctrine is therefore fairly confused and ambiguous at the moment. Any other country in the world would not have tolerated, and would fiercely counter diplomatically at least, any plans by their rivals to station a dozen heavy and undeniably offensive orientated military formations across the border permanently. But Pakistan obviously lacks the diplomatic muscles or a political leadership sufficiently concerned about the country’s national security. However AM’s proposal of withdrawing offensive elements is still a responsible and viable course for reducing much danger and worry for all. The fact that the Indians are disinclined to purse a constructive and peaceful long term policy is obviously a different matter…

The reorientation is undoubtedly in a transition process which will take years to complete. The point however is that it cannot be stopped or reversed at this point.

Cross border attacks upon Indian soft targets propelled the redeployment in the first place; I'm not really sure how you expect the GoP to build a case against it or for anyone to lend genuine support extending beyond issuing a few cosmetic statements. True concern for national security could be more successfully expressed by ensuring that Pakistani territory isn't used as a staging ground for terrorism against other states. If/when this basic requirement is met everything else will sort itself out.

 

[Hellfire]

My argument was in the context of the historic size of the insurgency and an Indian military and paramilitary presence of over half a million designed to act against an insurgency in the thousands with active support from the other party in the Kashmir dispute.

In that respect the laments over 30 odd infiltrators does seem over the top.

and do you know the impact of 30 highly motivated, armed militants who have been conditioned to fight using local populance as protection in an urbanised insurgency area?

 

[Hellfire]

The IBGs you are referring to are designed to be offensive in nature, but the Indian Military is far from achieving the full services integration envisioned by their ambitious Cold Start program. The infrastructure required to place this Indian offensive capacity close to the LoC and the border has not been developed, neither have their equipment deficiencies been addressed, yet. Indian military doctrine is therefore fairly confused and ambiguous at the moment. Any other country in the world would not have tolerated, and would fiercely counter diplomatically at least, any plans by their rivals to station a dozen heavy and undeniably offensive orientated military formations across the border permanently. But Pakistan obviously lacks the diplomatic muscles or a political leadership sufficiently concerned about the country’s national security. However AM’s proposal of withdrawing offensive elements is still a responsible and viable course for reducing much danger and worry for all. The fact that the Indians are disinclined to purse a constructive and peaceful long term policy is obviously a different matter…

Kasrkin

What he might have alluded to may have been the RAPIDs (Reorganised Augmented Plain Infantry Divisions) which has a higher mechanised component in terms of armour and mechanised infantry being integrated - a different approach from past tendencies of having Armoured/Mechanised divisions only or having independent armoured/mechanised brigades attached to regular infantry divisions which were found to be too taxing in terms of logistical support areas (LSAs) needed to be set up in case of an offensive operation.

Also you are slightly confused about the cold start program.The said program envisions movement of troops for offensive operations within a stipulated time period. Assets for the same were created along IB along the western border at the time of Op. Parakaram as in over the 1 year that IA spent there, deficiencies were noted and changes made. These assets are at static locations now and can be utilised at a short notice. They are separate from the reserve war stocks held by any army. As such, you can say these are additional resources which can be used to maintain a high tempo of operations in case of hostilities till as such time the reserves are brought to the front on regular supply patterns.

However, the only limiting factor as of yet for this doctrine to be 100% operationalised is - lack of adequate rail routes for transportation. Transport is one area which is being worked upon. The carrying capacity of the vast motor pool available to IA in national crisis (in terms of requisition of civil transports too) simply can not match upto the carrying capacity of rail transport in terms of cost effectiveness and load.

The military doctrine of India is not ambiguous. Its 24-48 hours of aerial combat followed by offensive ground operations. That is the broadest outline I can give you.

Thanks

 

[Hellfire]

The reorientation is undoubtedly in a transition process which will take years to complete. The point however is that it cannot be stopped or reversed at this point.

Are you referring to RAPIDs?