US moves to harness India to anti-China “pivot”

[jhungary]

Funny .What a BS statement ?
Allowing Chinese in our facility ??really??


India will only cares her own interest.We will remain neutral and keep expands our IN and other forces .Dont need to worry about IOR.Chinese still need at least two decades to seriously project their power in IOR.Even at the current pace we will have atleast 3 CBGs and dozens of subs at that time

lol, it may have sounded silly, but similar situation had happened to Finland during the height of cold war. For which the finnes allowing both US/NATO and Soviet Russia to dock in their port, also, Finland was an arms purchaser of Soviet Russia during that time until Finland Joined EU in 1995.

This is the price to pay if you are non-aligned, you either not allow access to anybody, or you either allow access to everybody. The US will not ask India for exclusive access for Indian Port infrastructure in Indian Ocean, because A.) It have nothing to do with SCS, B.) They have already have enough access in IOR. So for the US, the only thing they really wanted is for India to reciprocate this to the Chinese.

What US wanted for India is to stay out of the region and stayed neutral, Indian involvement as a third party (If India decided so) would not only complicate the issue in SCS, but also would limit US deployment in the region. That's the point.

 

[Armstrong]

lol, it may have sounded silly, but similar situation had happened to Finland during the height of cold war. For which the finnes allowing both US/NATO and Soviet Russia to dock in their port, also, Finland was an arms purchaser of Soviet Russia during that time until Finland Joined EU in 1995.

This is the price to pay if you are non-aligned, you either not allow access to anybody, or you either allow access to everybody. The US will not ask India for exclusive access for Indian Port infrastructure in Indian Ocean, because A.) It have nothing to do with SCS, B.) They have already have enough access in IOR. So for the US, the only thing they really wanted is for India to reciprocate this to the Chinese.

What US wanted for India is to stay out of the region and stayed neutral, Indian involvement as a third party (If India decided so) would not only complicate the issue in SCS, but also would limit US deployment in the region. That's the point.

If you want access to our ports....I think we can come to an arrangement !

A life long supply of Cuban cigars, some cheese pizza from an authentic New York Italian restaurant and Trump's hair loss secrets sounds about right !

Plus ban American Football and introduce Cricket instead !

 

[Blue Marlin]

lol, it may have sounded silly, but similar situation had happened to Finland during the height of cold war. For which the finnes allowing both US/NATO and Soviet Russia to dock in their port, also, Finland was an arms purchaser of Soviet Russia during that time until Finland Joined EU in 1995.

This is the price to pay if you are non-aligned, you either not allow access to anybody, or you either allow access to everybody. The US will not ask India for exclusive access for Indian Port infrastructure in Indian Ocean, because A.) It have nothing to do with SCS, B.) They have already have enough access in IOR. So for the US, the only thing they really wanted is for India to reciprocate this to the Chinese.

What US wanted for India is to stay out of the region and stayed neutral, Indian involvement as a third party (If India decided so) would not only complicate the issue in SCS, but also would limit US deployment in the region. That's the point.

i think other wise. i think the usa wants india to remain in the indian ocean and begin moving to the scs. just as china is increasing its activities in the indian ocean and the arabian sea. the Vietnamese invited india to explore for resources. which may result in a oil rig. this is basically inviting them to invest there and then eventually protect the investment.

 

[axisofevil]

Its rather obvious that China has consistently worked to undermine our interests. But they have also followed a policy of not interfering directly in our affairs and THAT is to be applauded. Both India and China strictly followed the Panchasheel policies.

The same is NOT true for US, UK or Russia. So by those parameters China is more trustworthy.

The whole world is competing for resources and China is not exception. Its absurd to hold that out against them. This POV can be safely discarded.

China does not settle the border dispute with India for the same reason India does not settle the dispute with Pakistan. There is NO Compelling reason to do so. They status quo works in our respective favour.

India has bartered away our bargaining chips cheaply with China, so we now have to gain / earn some new chips to start negotiation in earnest and settle matters. Otherwise it would be as foolish as expecting the Chinese to be "charitable" to our POV.

So the priority for India is to have a few new chips before the negotiations start and US can help us get those chips.

So the path is set and will play out the only way it can. For better or for worse.

Where and how did you come to this conclusion that China has not interfered with out interfering directly in our affairs?

lol, it may have sounded silly, but similar situation had happened to Finland during the height of cold war. For which the finnes allowing both US/NATO and Soviet Russia to dock in their port, also, Finland was an arms purchaser of Soviet Russia during that time until Finland Joined EU in 1995.

This is the price to pay if you are non-aligned, you either not allow access to anybody, or you either allow access to everybody. The US will not ask India for exclusive access for Indian Port infrastructure in Indian Ocean, because A.) It have nothing to do with SCS, B.) They have already have enough access in IOR. So for the US, the only thing they really wanted is for India to reciprocate this to the Chinese.

What US wanted for India is to stay out of the region and stayed neutral, Indian involvement as a third party (If India decided so) would not only complicate the issue in SCS, but also would limit US deployment in the region. That's the point.

The US doesn't need to engage India for it to remain neutral or stay out of the region. If that was the case, then it could of left India as it was. India has done what you mentioned since Independence practically.

 

[jhungary]

If you want access to our ports....I think we can come to an arrangement !

A life long supply of Cuban cigars, some cheese pizza from an authentic New York Italian restaurant and Trump's hair loss secrets sounds about right !

Plus ban American Football and introduce Cricket instead !

You can have trump if you want, he can build a wall in India-Pakistan border and ask India to pay for it......

Can't help you with Cuban Cigar, you don't want those Cuban cigar rolled in Miami

And a big no to Cricket, I have been living in Australia for almost 4 straight years now, I still don't know how it was played.

i think other wise. i think the usa wants india to remain in the indian ocean and begin moving to the scs. just as china is increasing its activities in the indian ocean and the arabian sea. the Vietnamese invited india to explore for resources. which may result in a oil rig. this is basically inviting them to invest there and then eventually protect the investment.

We wanted India to stay in Indian Ocean so we can pull asset of our 5th fleet and focus on Eastern IOR and Western pacific area.

The key is to have india stayed in IOR and with help such as RAN to secure control of the andarman and the surrounding area so that the US can implement the AirSea Battle Concept to counter Chinese capability of A2/AD in SCS. We need to shift the 6th Fleet more inside the Mediterranean to compensate the 5th fleet shifting East.

We cannot control what Vietnam or Philippine did tho, if they wanted IN to be engage in that part of the world, it would be up to Vietnam and India to sort them out, for the US, we don't want IN to be in SCS, we want the IN to stay in IOR to secure the region, so we can pull asset out. Simply we cannot secure the Andaman and the Malacca Strait with the pivot things going.

Where and how did you come to this conclusion that China has not interfered with out interfering directly in our affairs

The US doesn't need to engage India for it to remain neutral or stay out of the region. If that was the case, then it could of left India as it was. India has done what you mentioned since Independence practically.

Did US try to alter the current status of IOR?

US may have seek more defence ties with India, but I do not think US have done anything to invite India into the SCS situation.

Those story you heard about US asking India on Joint patrol in SCS is nothing more than a rumor. Where both India and US denied such request exist or even mentioned in mutual dialogue.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Against Russia

 

[Indus Pakistan]

The network of Chinese military and commercial facilities must be dismantled. The only way to do it to build economic and diplomatic relations with these countries and facilitating economic expansion by higher trade with china, making Pakistan irrelevant.

On internet it is very easy to make a country "irrelevant" but in the real world it is altogather another proposition. You will find making a country like Pakistan irrelevant impossible. You have been trying to do it since 1947. It still at regular intervals causes you grief. The chance of you defeating it militarily is zero since the entry of nuclear weapons on the South Asian landscape.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

@valkire The economic disparity you talk about is nominal. The rates of growth are dynamic - as something you should know. For years Pakistan enjoyed higher growth rate and India was notorious for her "Hindu growth rate". Then things changed. Things can again change. So lets not consign Pakistan yet.

All Pakistan has to do is improve it's attempts at bringing the informal economy within the tax domain and watch the sudden change. The figures you read do not even come close to representing the real economic activity in the country. If it were Pakistan per capita would be well ahead of India. In Pakistan 36% of the economy remains beyond regulatory figures compared to 22% in India.

If Pakistan tax regime was tightened and achieved the Indian rate of collection leaving 22% beyond the net it would mean the official figures would improve 14% and that would take care of any nominal advantage India has.

 

[Dungeness]

When you prop the despotic regimes that are arch rivals to India (and other countries), provide them with not just nuclear weapons but also missiles to deliver, that's pious? Or when you veto down any UN resolutions against even the terrorist groups and their handlers that specifically target India, is that pious?

@Topic: The problem between India and China is not just about disputed borders! It might have started as a border dispute but it is much more than that now. It is about 2 humongous and resource-hungry nations competing for the same resources and same markets! Thinking from Chinese POV, the last thing the Chinese regime wants is a settled border with India that will enable India to focus her meager resources towards her own economic upliftment thereby challenging China in their own game.

The Chinese would like to keep the proverbial pot boiling at the long and treacherous Indian border. Little surprise that there will not be any solution to the border dispute anytime soon!

I would agree with you on the conclusion, but not for the reason you stated. Otherwise you can't explain why Chinese companies are actively involved in India's infrastructure projects. Helping our enemies get stronger so they can increase their war potential?

 

[Bad Guy]

oh boy I feel sorry for our neighbours only thing they can do is Burn

Who cares about them? By the way, may they live long till India emerges as other power centre like US, Russia or China.
You will notice a lot of Indian Zionism and evil yindoo dilemma etc. on this forum and nobody gonna be able to troll us over poverty by then.

The chance of you defeating it militarily is zero since the entry of nuclear weapons on the South Asian landscape.

Nuclear reactors:
India: 21(6 more under construction)
pak: 3 (one more under construction)
We don't make nukes and put our nuclear program to electrify entire India by 1 May 2018(pakistan still suffers load shading) doesn't mean that we won't make them when needed. Our conventional forces are enough large to give us time to nukes.
Moreover, size of India, capability of stopping missiles and more experience in many types of nuclear techs gonna be a big factor.
Otherwise pakistan can try if they have doubts on India's capabilities.
By the way, what was purpose of commenting here?
This thread is about Indo Pacific and East Asia's South China Dispute.
I guess pakistan has no involvement in SCS dispute. So, what's your problem man?

 

[surya kiran]

he can build a wall in India-Pakistan border and ask India to pay for it.

There already is and we have built and paid for it.

 

[Perpendicular]

The strategic thinkers you refer to possibly had these thought prior to 1962 or during cold war, but certainly not for 21st century.

Every Indian Strategic thinker makes a reference to Chinese plans in the IO region. Not surprisingly we recently have tri-service command established in Andaman Nicobar Islands.

Any attempts for peace overture towards Chinese in the past have resulted in Chinese exploiting them at India's cost.


Indians are certainly not comfortable in taking a stance in SCS. But if India does not take a stance in SCS today, we will have to take a much more defensive stance in IO tomorrow.

Quite right.
We haven't learnt to take hard decisions yet that defines a power, if we consider ourselves to be one.
India never was neutral, we were in Soviet camp during cold war, regardless of our ambiguous non aligned stance. Continuing that today we are in US camp regardless of our ambiguous stance, but chinese are clear where we heading.
And we will continue to be in some camp until we start giving the impression to world that India is ready to use the stick when required or provoked to do so for the right or wrong reason.
As for now India is just waiting for the shit to hit the fan.
About time we get out of this apologetic mindset we inherited.

 

[Shankranthi]

Where and how did you come to this conclusion that China has not interfered with out interfering directly in our affairs?

Your question is a Logical Fallacy. You cannot prove a Negative.

You are asking me to provide Evidence of Absence.

It is for you to prove that China has interfered directly in our internal affairs.

 

[Scavenger]

India should form close military relations with Japan, South Korea and Australia, but it shouldn't be against any country including China.

We should and will be pragmatic and not dogmatic. When circumstances change, so would we.

If our land dispute with China takes an ugly turn, we should start going for alliances with the West. If our land dispute with China is resolved, we should remain neutral.

why would US wanted to Allies with India if there were not much IN present in that area to begin with??

Because as China starts expanding into South Asia, we have started pushing into East Asia.

We are rapidly developing ties with East Asian countries - notably - Vietnam and Japan and secondly Indonesia.
With Vietnam we are entering into military products space in a bid to arm them well against China.

In a decade or so, we would be a recognizable player in East Asia.

 

[jhungary]

There already is and we have built and paid for it.

you read too much into my joke post with @Armstrong ............lol