US Lies Nailed : Devyani Had Full diplomatic Immunity

[Dubious]

I thought half of the Indian members were trashing her with rich daughter words and calling her a show off...and stuff like shes just a secretary?

 

[Indo-guy]

Indo-guy, if you don't concede with good grace but with resentment, how will you bring yourself to apply what you've learned here to politics in your home country? Shouldn't you thank me and move on?

I'd like to add that regardless, I appreciate being allowed to post on this subject at PDF. It's been very difficult to post the whole shebang on Indian websites without getting suppressed or banned. PDF allows us to converse more freely, despite the fact that Pakistan sided with India on this matter (late in the game, of course, but in doing so Pakistan still managed to disgrace itself.) A tip of the hat to our often-not-much-appreciated Webmaster and his team of mods!

One more thing: this stuff cuts both ways. I was compelled to unhappily experience it at an early age, growing up as an ordinary kid but in a suburban D.C. neighborhood peppered with foreign diplomats, not all of them friendly. It's like a slap in the face that you can't return. So I'm happy when a diplomat (whether they're foreign or American) gets prosecuted for grave misuse of their immunity. But I've also learned that this is a different realm of law and conduct, one with its own offenses, obligations, and limitations.

Dear Soloman2 ,
I would concede with good grace 'only' when it is due .

But in this case I simply can't .

US can't expect us to do something which it has deliberately and openly flouted all along .

My intention to post this thread was also to bring about discussion on the issue .



I agree that the stuff cuts both ways ....

But I am of firm opinion ....that one should not entertain duplicity whatsoever ...

US should have dealt with this issue with maturity than masochism ....

I will be interested to see outcome of the petition by Devyani in US court .

If Devyani was UN advisor from August to 31'st December 2013 ....she had diplomatic immunity

Your contention whether Diplomatic immunity would not protect Devyani because of the letter and spirit of the underlying convention is not acceptable ...because it would be the same case with number of US diplomats .

anyway this point will be contested in court .


Unfortunately you have failed to condemn double standards practiced by your country .

You shouldn't expect me to condemn our government when you continue to exhort your government despite it's obvious doublespeak .

In all this issue one thing that is prominently highlighted is the American penchant to pay lip service to issues such as human trafficking , Labour protection and human rights and so on and to take moral high ground when it comes to others ...and at the same time to trample and kick these very issues when it comes to itself ....

Don't tell me that your country is better than most other countries in this regard .

when it comes to idealism ...it is all or none phenomenon .

as it is said ...you are either pregnant or not . There is nothing like being half pregnant ....

so you can't be half right or half correct or half idealistic or half humanist or half true .....




I will come back to PDF with Devyani Khobragade affair ....when we will have outcome of her petition to quash indictment proceedings against her .

 

[anonymus]

I thought half of the Indian members were trashing her with rich daughter words and calling her a show off...and stuff like shes just a secretary?

She is a proven scamster who commited fraud in Adarsh flat scam and has unaccounted for wealth. That's if we don't count multitudes of scams of her father.She is carrying forward family legacy of looting public money.

India and by that extension Indians struck out for her because getting our diplomats prosecuted on laughably stupid reasons abroad would have set up a bad precedence. Make no mistake, personally she is a certified swindler.

@Solomon2 @Indo-guy ; You people are debating this issue; seriously??

@Indo-guy ; Supporting her when we were having a diplomatic tug of war with US was one thing; supporting her now is a extreme form of chauvinistic delusion. If you have been in touch with current affairs of India, you would have noticed that she is farrrrrrr away from being squeaky clean.

 

[Indo-guy]

She is a proven scamster who commited fraud in Adarsh flat scam and has unaccounted for wealth. That's if we don't count multitudes of scams of her father.She is carrying forward family legacy of looting public money.

India and by that extension Indians struck out for her because getting our diplomats prosecuted on laughably stupid reasons abroad would have set up a bad precedence. Make no mistake, personally she is a certified swindler.

@Solomon2 @Indo-guy ; You people are debating this issue; seriously??

@Indo-guy ; Supporting her when we were having a diplomatic tug of war with US was one thing; supporting her now is a extreme form of chauvinistic delusion. If you have been in touch with current affairs of India, you would have noticed that she is farrrrrrr away from being squeaky clean.

You have totally mis-understood me .

I have no love or sympathy for Devyani khobragade .

I am defending devyani's position only because she was India's diplomat ..

and outcome of this debate has bearing upon other Indian diplomats .

I am of the firm opinion that she should be tried for all the scams she has been accused of ....and dealt with accordingly .


This is not the issue about Devyani at all .


This is about American double standards over issue of diplomatic immunity ....


You must not forget that the decision to go all out against Devyani was taken at highest rungs of American government .



all the events that took place and chronology of events clearly prove that American went ahead with 'agenda' to humiliate her and humiliate India in the process.


This contention is about how US treats International laws and conventions differently when it comes to its own diplomats versus diplomats from countries like India .



I am defending the rights of an Indian diplomat and not Devyani ....

You may see this as chavunistic delusion ....it's up to you how you interpret things.

The reason to post this thread was to show that our stand was correct and that Devyani was indeed UN advisor for the said period and had diplomatic immunity when she was arrested .

This was denied by americans all along ....

They had said that she enjoyed no immunity when she was arrested .

it is possible that americans were unaware of Devyani's diplomatic status as Un advisor .

But that's the issue americans had no courtesy to speak to Indian consul in this regard before undertaking well planned action of arresting Devyani .

If you believe we should be happy of US letting go Devyani and forget about it ...I do not agree with you .


It's not the question of 'person' but 'principle' ......

I hope I have made my stand amply clear to you .

 

[Solomon2]

I have no love or sympathy for Devyani khobragade. I am defending devyani's position only because she was India's diplomat ..

She's a consul, not a diplomat: her job isn't to represent her country as much as it is to serve its citizens abroad and smooth trade between citizens and foreigners. In terms of protocol, perhaps a useful analogy is to think of a diplomat as lord of the manor, while the consul is the guy who answers the doorbell. When the lord leaves the mansion he's still a lord; when the doorman leaves the mansion after work he's a nobody.

and outcome of this debate has bearing upon other Indian diplomats .

Yes, it does.

I am of the firm opinion that she should be tried for all the scams she has been accused of ....and dealt with accordingly .

Unfortunately, such a prosecution is unlikely to clean up the act of India's Diplomatic Corps. She has to be prosecuted for abusing her position for that to happen.

This is about American double standards over issue of diplomatic immunity ....

As I've ceaselessly pointed out, this is a distraction. You yourself have noted that Americans diplomats almost always get prosecuted for their crimes, whereas Indian diplomats never do.

You must not forget that the decision to go all out against Devyani was taken at highest rungs of American government .

Not sure. If so, probably irrelevant. The U.S. is a country of rule-of-law, not rule-BY-law; you can't, as Devyani did, sic the police on someone for a spurious charge, no matter who you happen to be.

all the events that took place and chronology of events clearly prove that American went ahead with 'agenda' to humiliate her and humiliate India in the process.

As a consul operating outside the limits of her limited immunity, India isn't supposed to take this sort of thing as a slight; it even says so in the Vienna Convention.

This contention is about how US treats International laws and conventions differently when it comes to its own diplomats versus diplomats from countries like India .

It's a contention that doesn't hold up. Yet you refuse to change your mind and prefer to re-wind the tape to the beginning. You're totally devoted to letting the high-and-mighty screw those below. This is why American diplomats - and, I think, most U.S. citizens - consider India isn't much of a democracy.

I am defending the rights of an Indian diplomat and not Devyani ....

No. You are defending the wrongs of India's diplomats.

You may see this as chavunistic delusion ....it's up to you how you interpret things.

Laws don't exist to be subjectively "interpreted."

The reason to post this thread was to show that our stand was correct and that Devyani was indeed UN advisor for the said period and had diplomatic immunity when she was arrested .

And I demonstrated immediately that the claim Indians made about the U.N. letter was exactly backward.

As the MEA put it:

Dr. Khobragade had an earlier accreditation as Adviser to the Indian delegation to the United Nations for meetings of the United Nations General Assembly and should have been entitled to diplomatic immunities accorded by the Convention on the Privileges and Immunities of the United Nations of 1946. However, the US Government has taken the position that they do not recognise the validity of such immunity and maintains that the arrest did not contravene it, in keeping with the terms of the Headquarters Agreement concluded between the United Nations and the United States of America.

The MEA is abusing language here. The U.S. recognizes the U.N. immunity as valid. It just doesn't apply to Devyani Khobragade in this instance: her assignment to U.N. duty was temporary and long in the past (Devyani didn't realize she might still have it), and in any case, like consular immunity, it didn't cover her personal conduct. The MEA doesn't mention this specific, nor the additional the fact that the Convention refferred to in the U.N. letter specifically says it was India's duty to waive any immunity Devyani had and turn her in to American authorities; they were not supposed to even try to defend Devyani like this.

They had said that she enjoyed no immunity when she was arrested .

Don't exaggerate. She was extended courtesies during processing. Arguably, State could have been a bit smarter and requested withholding the strip search as a matter of cultural sensitivity.

But that's the issue americans had no courtesy to speak to Indian consul in this regard before undertaking well planned action of arresting Devyani .

That would be improper. The Americans consulted with India's diplomats about the situation months before. Nothing happened to alleviate matters. As for the arrest itself, there was no call for further notification. What for? Do you think the U.S. is a country where the authorities indict a person for a felony, yet decide to let that person walk free anyway?

It's not the question of 'person' but 'principle' ......

Yep. And the principles you're fighting for are bad ones.

There is a common thread in the mentality of S. Asian minds in operation here, I think. In reading history, I surmise that your loyalty, once won, is more strongly fixed than that of other peoples. You can see it in how quickly and violently the once-united post-WWII Indian Army separated into Pakistan/India armies; you can see it in how Gulf Arab rulers have chosen Muslims from S. Asia as their bodyguards; you can see it in how stubbornly Indians stick to defending "their" diplomats and deride the idea that the U.S. may care more about protecting Indians than India's own officials - even though everyone can see that's what has happened here.

But as long as you stick to type, Indo-guy, you're going to be endorsing the abuse of Indians by their own officials. You might think that prosecuting Khobragade at home is a solution, but it's absurdly easy for India's dishonest government personnel abroad to manipulate public opinion as a result. Khobragade, acting solely for her personal benefit, lied not only to her own citizens but to her own government. Consuls like that are unlikely to serve Indians abroad very well - not without a bribe, at least - and diplomats who act that way might well prefer to start wars and economic depressions rather than abase themselves by writing a self-critical memo.

@Solomon2 @Indo-guy ; You people are debating this issue; seriously??

The discussion of the Khobragade issue is over. The discussion of how Indians should respond to the revelation that India's Diplomatic Corps is corrupt to the core is now front and center.

 

[Arya Desa]

@Solomon2

 

[IndoUS]

Khobragade wins dismissal of indictment| Reuters

Well this brings an end to the entire drama.

 

[Thirdfront]

Khobragade wins dismissal of indictment| Reuters

Well this brings an end to the entire drama.

No it doesn't. She will be indicted again.
@Solomon2 You are repeating the same things again regarding India's duty to waive immunity. Can you give some link where it is stated that this "duty" is binding? What is the consequence (in terms of UN) if India refuses to discharge said duties? Do you atleast agree that with out India waiving immunity, had she covered under UN immunity at the time of her arrest, what US did was wrong and against Vienna convention?

 

[Indo-guy]

She's a consul, not a diplomat: her job isn't to represent her country as much as it is to serve its citizens abroad and smooth trade between citizens and foreigners. In terms of protocol, perhaps a useful analogy is to think of a diplomat as lord of the manor, while the consul is the guy who answers the doorbell. When the lord leaves the mansion he's still a lord; when the doorman leaves the mansion after work he's a nobody.

Yes, it does.

Unfortunately, such a prosecution is unlikely to clean up the act of India's Diplomatic Corps. She has to be prosecuted for abusing her position for that to happen.

As I've ceaselessly pointed out, this is a distraction. You yourself have noted that Americans diplomats almost always get prosecuted for their crimes, whereas Indian diplomats never do.

Not sure. If so, probably irrelevant. The U.S. is a country of rule-of-law, not rule-BY-law; you can't, as Devyani did, sic the police on someone for a spurious charge, no matter who you happen to be.

As a consul operating outside the limits of her limited immunity, India isn't supposed to take this sort of thing as a slight; it even says so in the Vienna Convention.

It's a contention that doesn't hold up. Yet you refuse to change your mind and prefer to re-wind the tape to the beginning. You're totally devoted to letting the high-and-mighty screw those below. This is why American diplomats - and, I think, most U.S. citizens - consider India isn't much of a democracy.

No. You are defending the wrongs of India's diplomats.
Laws don't exist to be subjectively "interpreted."

And I demonstrated immediately that the claim Indians made about the U.N. letter was exactly backward.

As the MEA put it:

Dr. Khobragade had an earlier accreditation as Adviser to the Indian delegation to the United Nations for meetings of the United Nations General Assembly and should have been entitled to diplomatic immunities accorded by the Convention on the Privileges and Immunities of the United Nations of 1946. However, the US Government has taken the position that they do not recognise the validity of such immunity and maintains that the arrest did not contravene it, in keeping with the terms of the Headquarters Agreement concluded between the United Nations and the United States of America.

The MEA is abusing language here. The U.S. recognizes the U.N. immunity as valid. It just doesn't apply to Devyani Khobragade in this instance: her assignment to U.N. duty was temporary and long in the past (Devyani didn't realize she might still have it), and in any case, like consular immunity, it didn't cover her personal conduct. The MEA doesn't mention this specific, nor the additional the fact that the Convention refferred to in the U.N. letter specifically says it was India's duty to waive any immunity Devyani had and turn her in to American authorities; they were not supposed to even try to defend Devyani like this.

Don't exaggerate. She was extended courtesies during processing. Arguably, State could have been a bit smarter and requested withholding the strip search as a matter of cultural sensitivity.
That would be improper. The Americans consulted with India's diplomats about the situation months before. Nothing happened to alleviate matters. As for the arrest itself, there was no call for further notification. What for? Do you think the U.S. is a country where the authorities indict a person for a felony, yet decide to let that person walk free anyway?

Yep. And the principles you're fighting for are bad ones.

There is a common thread in the mentality of S. Asian minds in operation here, I think. In reading history, I surmise that your loyalty, once won, is more strongly fixed than that of other peoples. You can see it in how quickly and violently the once-united post-WWII Indian Army separated into Pakistan/India armies; you can see it in how Gulf Arab rulers have chosen Muslims from S. Asia as their bodyguards; you can see it in how stubbornly Indians stick to defending "their" diplomats and deride the idea that the U.S. may care more about protecting Indians than India's own officials - even though everyone can see that's what has happened here.

But as long as you stick to type, Indo-guy, you're going to be endorsing the abuse of Indians by their own officials. You might think that prosecuting Khobragade at home is a solution, but it's absurdly easy for India's dishonest government personnel abroad to manipulate public opinion as a result. Khobragade, acting solely for her personal benefit, lied not only to her own citizens but to her own government. Consuls like that are unlikely to serve Indians abroad very well - not without a bribe, at least - and diplomats who act that way might well prefer to start wars and economic depressions rather than abase themselves by writing a self-critical memo.

The discussion of the Khobragade issue is over. The discussion of how Indians should respond to the revelation that India's Diplomatic Corps is corrupt to the core is now front and center.

Your ranting is useless since indictment proceedings against Devyani have been quashed !

This is the vindication of our stand .

Bye . take care .

Go and preach Principles and values to US administration .

 

[axisofevil]

This is manufactured behind the scenes. America threw INdia a bone....just so that relations could go on smoothly. Next time fill out the paperwork properly or pay first world wages, not slave labor. Ask any Indian American how efficient Indan counsulates are in America, and they will all laugh. Its a piece of shit, ran so poorly, it will make shake your head in disbelief. Don't believe me? Take a look at the website! My kid can make a better website....

 

[Indo-guy]

This is manufactured behind the scenes. America threw INdia a bone....just so that relations could go on smoothly. Next time fill out the paperwork properly or pay first world wages, not slave labor. Ask any Indian American how efficient Indan counsulates are in America, and they will all laugh. Its a piece of shit, ran so poorly, it will make shake your head in disbelief. Don't believe me? Take a look at the website! My kid can make a better website....

why your kid have not made better website yet ?

 

[Solomon2]

No it doesn't. She will be indicted again.

Possibly not. I think the Indian and U.S. diplomats have thought this one through. There are difficulties indicting someone who is not in the U.S. And if the MEA succeeds in finding a way for Devyani to regain full diplomatic immunity before papers can be re-filed the prosecutor won't even bother to file them.

@Solomon2 You are repeating the same things again regarding India's duty to waive immunity. Can you give some link where it is stated that this "duty" is binding?

link. Scroll down to Section 14.

What is the consequence (in terms of UN) if India refuses to discharge said duties?

I don't know.

Do you atleast agree that with out India waiving immunity, had she covered under UN immunity at the time of her arrest, what US did was wrong and against Vienna convention?

There is every indication that the U.S. was acting within the limits of the Vienna Consular and U.N. Personnel Conventions and acted properly. It might have been sensible for State to request as part of "special handling" skipping the strip-search and in the future when an Indian dip or consul is arrested I hope they will do so.

 

[thesolar65]

why your kid have not made better website yet ?

He does not have a kid yet!! Still trying!!

 

[Solomon2]

Your ranting is useless since indictment proceedings against Devyani have been quashed ! This is the vindication of our stand .

She got off on a technicality. The U.S. had already expelled her. But you are still stuck with a thoroughly corrupted Diplomatic Corps.

Go and preach Principles and values to US administration .

Plenty of Republican congressmen to do that, thanks!

Next time fill out the paperwork properly or pay first world wages, not slave labor.

If you look at the transcripts of the Indian MEA press conferences, you'll read the spokesman saying that if they ever have such a problem again they will quickly recall the domestic to India. The MEA still sees the maid as the only party at fault. So India's Diplomatic Corps don't intend to change their corrupt practices one little bit.

 

[Indo-guy]

She got off on a technicality. The U.S. had already expelled her. But you are still stuck with a thoroughly corrupted Diplomatic Corps.

Just like those scores of US diplomats charged with much serious offences such as rapes , sexual assaults , murders etc got off on technicality ?

Plenty of Republican congressmen to do that, thanks! .

Seems Republicans and and Democrats are incompetent enough that's why US administration have not improved even a bit over last hundreds of years . it's policies remain egocentric , self serving , opportunistic ...

You need to give helping hand and your insightful advise to them . May be with your genuine advise to uphold humanity , truth and justice US administration will change for better ....



what is the height of hypocrisy ???

To preach others what you don't day and night !!!


You are truly American in that sense ...you are hypocrite enough to be citizen of the most hypocrite country in the world !!!