US helping Pakistan become stable, prosperous, democratic nation: Brian Heath

[TankMan]

That is all fine, but after USSR collapsed soon after it withdrew from Afghanistan, ending the Cold War. What happened after 9/11 that led to the US invasion of Afghanistan was a totally different war.

Yes, true, but this "totally different war" was caused by groups (Al Qaeda, Taliban) which rose to power thanks to US involvement.

 

[VCheng]

Direct or No direct involvement, that doesnt even matter as long as they played their role as business as usual - that was US's biggest mistake because They thought the war was over but the War had actually started between AQ, US embassy bombing in 92, Pressure on KSA for inviting US forces during Gulf war - , all was a continuation of this Theatre of War in Afghanistan ---

Okay, if you are taking such an expansive view of what USA does, please know that its presence and activities span the globe and are continuous. But in the context of Pakistan and this thread, Pakistan has benefited greatly from US involvement in Afghanistan, both directly and indirectly, in terms of financial, material and political support. To demonize USA as Pakistan's enemy while at the same time benefiting from its largess is disingenuous in the extreme, and serves no one, and indeed is far more damaging to Pakistan itself than anyone else.

Yes, true, but this "totally different war" was caused by groups (Al Qaeda, Taliban) which rose to power thanks to US involvement.

But there was no US involvement in Afghanistan after the collapse of the USSR. It was Pakistan's playground. Guess who raised the Taliban for their own use as non-state actors?

 

[TankMan]

Okay, if you are taking such an expansive view of what USA does, please know that its presence and activities span the globe and are continuous. But in the context of Pakistan and this thread, Pakistan has benefited greatly from US involvement in Afghanistan, both directly and indirectly, in terms of financial, material and political support. To demonize USA as Pakistan's enemy while at the same time benefiting from its largess is disingenuous in the extreme, and serves no one, and indeed is far more damaging to Pakistan itself than anyone else.

Pakistan has lost a lot more than it has gained by this War on Terror, even if you don't count the loss of Pakistanis' lives.

Pakistan got $18bn aid from US since 2001 - The Times of India
Pakistan ‘received $25.91b’ from US since 9/11


War on terror cost Pakistan $67.9 billion - Newspaper - DAWN.COM
Pakistan suffered $100 bn losses in war on terror - thenews.com.pk
http://www.finance.gov.pk/survey/chapter_11/Special Section_1.pdf

I know the articles are from different dates, but the general observation by most sources is that Pakistan has lost way more than it gained by the US involvement in Afghanistan. All Pakistan got was bombings, refugees, more bombings, more terrorists and more violence.

 

[VCheng]

Pakistan has lost a lot more than it has gained by this War on Terror, even if you don't count the loss of Pakistanis' lives.

Pakistan got $18bn aid from US since 2001 - The Times of India
Pakistan ‘received $25.91b’ from US since 9/11

War on terror cost Pakistan $67.9 billion - Newspaper - DAWN.COM
Pakistan suffered $100 bn losses in war on terror - thenews.com.pk

I know the articles are from different dates, but the general observation by most sources is that Pakistan has lost way more than it gained by the US involvement in Afghanistan. All Pakistan got was bombings, refugees, more bombings, more terrorists and more violence.

Those claims of losses by Pakistan are well known to be wildly exaggerated and claimed only by Pakistan itself. Pakistan internal woes are its own doing by losing control of the extra state actors that it raised to be used elsewhere, and cannot be blamed on anyone else but itself.

 

[Amaa'n]

Okay, if you are taking such an expansive view of what USA does, please know that its presence and activities span the globe and are continuous. But in the context of Pakistan and this thread, Pakistan has benefited greatly from US involvement in Afghanistan, both directly and indirectly, in terms of financial, material and political support. To demonize USA as Pakistan's enemy while at the same time benefiting from its largess is disingenuous in the extreme, and serves no one, and indeed is far more damaging to Pakistan itself than anyone else.

Pakistan and KSA are equally to be blamed and I am not denying this fact - all I said was US is equally responsible - had they not brought in their Financial and tech support, no way Pakistan could have sustained this radical version of islam for a long period of time --

 

[TankMan]

Those claims of losses by Pakistan are well known to be wildly exaggerated and claimed only by Pakistan itself. Pakistan internal woes are its own doing by losing control of the extra state actors that it raised to be used elsewhere, and cannot be blamed on anyone else but itself.

So you are saying that the US involvement in Afghanistan has nothing to do with the thousands of Afghan refugees, militants from the Afghan border, suicide bombings and terrorists in Pakistan?
Even if the loss is exaggerated, its still there and its still a lot.

 

[VCheng]

Pakistan and KSA are equally to be blamed and I am not denying this fact - all I said was US is equally responsible - had they not brought in their Financial and tech support, no way Pakistan could have sustained this radical version of islam for a long period of time --

So you agree with the statements made by the Consul General in the OP that USA has helped stabilize Pakistan.

So you are saying that the US involvement in Afghanistan has nothing to do with the thousands of Afghan refugees, militants from the Afghan border, suicide bombings and terrorists in Pakistan?
Even if the loss is exaggerated, its still there and its still a lot.

Pakistan's internal law and order and security problems are its own doing.

 

[Amaa'n]

Those claims of losses by Pakistan are well known to be wildly exaggerated and claimed only by Pakistan itself. Pakistan internal woes are its own doing by losing control of the extra state actors that it raised to be used elsewhere, and cannot be blamed on anyone else but itself.

Again, US is equally to be blamed - they invaded Afghanistan post 9/11 and pressurized us to choose a side - We picked them, and it was all done right - It was unfortunate that what US and Pakistan had nurtured a decade ago came back to haunt them - Same ideology that we used against USSR, was used against us.
US was seen as an invading force and Pakistan was its Major Ally, that turn us into a bad guy too - and this way we lost the control ---

 

[VCheng]

Again, US is equally to be blamed - they invaded Afghanistan post 9/11 and pressurized us to choose a side - We picked them, and it was all done right - It was unfortunate that what US and Pakistan had nurtured a decade ago came back to haunt them - Same ideology that we used against USSR, was used against us.
US was seen as an invading force and Pakistan was its Major Ally, that turn us into a bad guy too - and this way we lost the control ---

I am sorry to say it so bluntly, but to blame USA for its own problems is the coward's way out to avoid accepting its own responsibilities by Pakistan. "He made me do it" is an excuse that belongs only in primary schools, not international geopolitics.

And to top it all, it is no one but Pakistan that has the burden of solving its own problems, regardless of who it may choose to blame.

 

[TankMan]

Pakistan's internal law and order and security problems are its own doing.

Pakistan joined the War on Terror with the US. The losses caused by that war are not Pakistan's own doing.
There is no denying that the instability in Afghanistan causes a lot of damage to Pakistan, more than Pakistan's 'own doing'.

 

[Amaa'n]

So you agree with the statements made by the Consul General in the OP that USA has helped stabilize Pakistan.
.

I never disagreed with it - but this statement is incomplete though - whatever US did for us, came with a price tag -- no doubt they assisted us with DoJ IATAP, and CSF, but that came along with strings attached, and we paid the price ----

 

[TankMan]

I never disagreed with it - but this statement is incomplete though - whatever US did for us, came with a price tag -- no doubt they assisted us with DoJ IATAP, and CSF, but that came along with strings attached, and we paid the price ----

Exactly. While the US is helping 'stabilize' Pakistan on one side, it's doing a lot that de-stabilizes it on the other side. The US isn't helping Pakistan out of goodwill, its just for geopolitical interests. Once those are achieved, the US would probably try and destroy Pakistan too.

 

[Amaa'n]

I am sorry to say it so bluntly, but to blame USA for its own problems is the coward's way out to avoid accepting its own responsibilities by Pakistan. "He made me do it" is an excuse that belongs only in primary schools, not international geopolitics.

And to top it all, it is no one but Pakistan that has the burden of solving its own problems, regardless of who it may choose to blame.

I am not giving free pass to anyone unlike you, I am just saying that both parties were on the Wrong -- Pakistani establishment wanted its own version of Greater Central Asian states to Bangladesh and that led us to this mess ---

 

[VCheng]

I am not giving free pass to anyone unlike you, I am just saying that both parties were on the Wrong -- Pakistani establishment wanted its own version of Greater Central Asian states to Bangladesh and that led us to this mess ---

It is not a matter of giving anyone a free pass, but more a matter of establishing clear and overwhelming responsibility. After the fall of the USSR, Pakistan manipulated the situation in Afghanistan to its advantage by creating extra state actors, not realizing the shortsightedness of its vision. USA clearly had nothing to do with this strategic vision, because it was precisely the US abandonment of post-USSR Afghanistan that gave Pakistan a free hand to whatever it wanted there. When Pakistan lost control of its creations, they looked beyond the immediate neighborhood and planned to attack USA as part of their global jihadi vision. 9/11 changed everything for Pakistan when USA came into Afghanistan to destroy those networks that had attacked it. The rest, as they say, is history.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Keep helping democracy , and Russia will keep sending us MI-35