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US Drone Strikes In Pakistan

"I rest my case"

Here's where I might have done so were I you-

"'We need a slow, steady evolution in the understanding of each other's limitations and constraints,'

one general admitted. He seemed so reasonable I wondered if India had escaped his mind. It had not.

'If you want us to deliver,'

he added in sudden warning,

'then you must build our country's capacity. If not, then we will go with our own threat assessment as to who is giving us the most heat.'”

Well, that's a possibility but I doubt it'll change matters for the better in FATA and NWFP by putting a possible open conflict with India and/or Afghanistan/NATO/ISAF on the table as the alternative.

Proxy warfare probably won't go far in this climate and, instead would likely escalate to the next level. A.M., you write that you'll believe our aid package when you see it. The general's comments may reveal why it's difficult to easily pass such packages when Pakistan comes to mind.

I expect the exact conversation in the mess-halls frequented by Deltacamelately, btw.
 
Well, that's a possibility but I doubt it'll change matters for the better in FATA and NWFP by putting a possible open conflict with India and/or Afghanistan/NATO/ISAF on the table as the alternative.
S-2

Then you haven't really understood or bothered to look beyond the superficial interpretation that you articulated above. This Braggadocio revolving around 'open conflict' is nothing but the opposite side of the coin wrt to the General's comments, and a tunnel vision that is dangerous.

What I see in the General's comments is in fact a pragmatism and willingness to move forward provided the US gets of its high horse and arrogance and actually move to meet halfway, by addressing Pakistani concerns - I do not think he could have been any clearer on that count.

In essence, the Genera's comments are not that far off from what I argued, that there are several changes the US can implement in policy that would allow better coordination and cooperation in the WoT, buy addressing Pakistani concerns on various fronts. Similar arguments have also been recently articulated by Stephen Cohen, Barnett Rubin and a host of other 'analysts' and 'experts'. Whether the US chooses to show pragmatism, maturity and long term vision is what remains to be seen.
 
I see. Thanks for the insight.

That "superficial interpretation" was presented by the author and the general's intent needs no unique insight.

"What I see in the General's comments is in fact a pragmatism and willingness to move forward provided the US gets of its high horse and arrogance and actually move to meet halfway, by addressing Pakistani concerns"

The general's words speak far better for himself than you. None of your interpretation was present so please don't unfairly shape his message with "high horse" and "arrogance". Certainly not when he speaks with such pragmatism even if from the narrowly shaped perspective of a professional soldier whose career has been spent looking at the Indian Army.

He very much, btw, reminds me of so many officers and former officers from my era who continue (and even quietly root) to see Russian bogey-men under every rock. It's only those young guys like Shek and over at C.I.A. that see A.Q. and OBL under rocks. Us old guys know the real threat. Yup. The Russians and their lackeys, the Indians, are comin' to get us all. Don't muss up the general's message. Whaddaya know? You're not a soldier and never will be.

OTOH, if you really want to play into the hands of the Indians, keep the bulk of your forces in the Punjab facing them. You get weaker by the day without a shot fired on that front. Since you're worried about paying salaries to your army, I'd use them where there's a shooting war while you can rather than sit on a border that will never see a bullet fired in anger. Employed? Yes. Gainfully? No.

Makes sense to me. Just imagine, maybe you could actually DO something about S. Waziristan instead of demanding patience while most of your army sits in Punjab facing an Indian Army with a massive case of the giggles.

Unattributed innuendo about C.I.A. seeing bogey-men everywhere and your opinions of Iraq are hardly conclusive nor advance the discussion. Just my opinion, of course but I hope that you'll avoid more of this henceforth. Save Iraq for another time as I fully disagree with you and would be happy to go toe-to-toe anytime- but not here. Meanwhile, I'd appreciate the links to these writers that I may further mature while enhancing my long-term pragmatic vision.

OTOH, you're welcome to continue coloring your discourse with this expressive verbage and self-righteous insinuations but please help me to separate our lap-dogs in Kabul from those in Islamabad and New Delhi, won't you? We have so many scattered about and they all appear and speak the same- usually with an arm extended while demanding more money. It's often hard to know one from the other...or really care, I suppose.

Sheesh!?:undecided: And you call us arrogant?:disagree:
 
another one ! this is a bit to much what the .....ng hell is
the U.S problem :angry:

'US strike' on Pakistan militants !


A suspected US missile strike in north-west Pakistan has killed at least eight people, Pakistani officials say.

The attack by a US drone targeted al-Qaeda-linked militants in the tribal region of North Waziristan, close to the Afghan border, they said.

One official told the AFP news agency that "several missiles struck a suspected al-Qaeda hide-out in North Waziristan".

Some reports said 10 had been killed. The US has not confirmed the attack.

Since 1 September, there have been at least 17 of these strikes and, while US officials say al-Qaeda leaders are being successfully targeted, local tribesmen say scores of civilians have been killed.

Most of the missile strikes have taken place in the Waziristan region.

Pakistan says such attacks are proving counter-productive to its own strategy of fighting the militants.

Earlier this week, the head of US Central Command General David Petraeus said he would consider Pakistani criticism of US missile strikes on Pakistani territory.


Story from BBC NEWS:
BBC NEWS | South Asia | 'US strike' on Pakistan militants

Published: 2008/11/07 08:36:24 GMT

© BBC MMVIII
 
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Certainly not when he speaks with such pragmatism even if from the narrowly shaped perspective of a professional soldier whose career has been spent looking at the Indian Army.

Have you ever met him? Then how can you be so sure he has a...what was it? Yeah a "narrowly shaped perspective" and that his career is only "looking at the Indian Army". Now that is awfully presumptuous to say the very least…pretty much like if I were to say the that General Petraeus and the entire military US hierarchy have “narrowly shaped perspectives” and are incapable of fighting a war against an unbroken conventional military force because they spent their “whole careers looking at Vietnam or Iraq”. Now those words would reek of uneducated egotistical disgust, probably by someone who is used to looking down on others, eh? The word ‘arrogant’ certainly springs to mind for one.

OTOH, if you really want to play into the hands of the Indians, keep the bulk of your forces in the Punjab facing them. You get weaker by the day without a shot fired on that front. Since you're worried about paying salaries to your army, I'd use them where there's a shooting war while you can rather than sit on a border that will never see a bullet fired in anger. Employed? Yes. Gainfully? No.

Hmm, yeah. You seem to be forgetting the Soviets in the Cold War greatly outnumbered your forces and your allies in Europe, and the North Koreans still do with your boys sitting in South Korea…and hardly any shots were/are fired on those fronts for decades on end. But they didn’t just cut and run, drop everything and find an ‘easy’ war, now did they? They had obligations to the peoples of Europe and S. Korea and they stayed until the threat subsided. Because you see free nations had a little something called martial and moral defiance. So I would have asked you to apply these peculiar standards to your own country first but that would be unfair because this lame logic only holds relevance in your head, not in your country. All I can say is; don’t expect us all fall for your pettily improvised morals because you are having a tough time in Afghanistan.

And FYI, our boys in Punjab are not sitting on the border, they are at their peace time deployments in garrison and cities etc, also you might not know this but Punjab is where the vast bulk of Pakistan’s population is and its natural that that’s who the bulk of our soldiery protects. And as to your brilliant revelation; no Pakistan is not having trouble paying soldier salaries (actually salaries just went up recently), we are not Zimbabwe but I suppose common sense holds little sway over pathetically stereotypical minds. On the other hand, we don’t spend a bloody trillion dollars on defense like you do either, and we have financial constraints no doubt about it which is exactly why it is quite understandable if we are reluctant to commit to vast and costly deployments away from our primary threats, particularly when it’s going to come down to little or nothing due to near complete lack of REAL commitment on the other side.:crazy:

The US and its NATO allies on the other hand have no such bloody excuse. The US WoT budget alone is 100s of times greater than ours, but how many troops has the US deployed to ‘protect’ the Afghan people? Barely 1/4th the number of the boots we have on the ground. As a result they are hunkered down by a weak, largely unpopular insurgency and ending up having to bomb the very bloody villages they are supposed to be protecting from afar.

Makes sense to me. Just imagine, maybe you could actually DO something about S. Waziristan instead of demanding patience while most of your army sits in Punjab facing an Indian Army with a massive case of the giggles.

I appreciate your concerns about Indian giggles, but we are more concerned about them trying anything stupid as opposed to giggling. Particularly since India has been fighting small to large scale insurrections for decades herself and still is, suffering many casualties along the way…so we’re not all that offended to be honest.

Unattributed innuendo about C.I.A. seeing bogey-men everywhere and your opinions of Iraq are hardly conclusive nor advance the discussion. Just my opinion, of course but I hope that you'll avoid more of this henceforth. Save Iraq for another time as I fully disagree with you and would be happy to go toe-to-toe anytime- but not here.

Very good, I suppose this is the part we completely forget about your slurs aimed at our troops in Punjab, about how wrongly they are ‘committed’ and how useless they are…?

Well if you can talk about how our financially constrained 500,000 man military is useless against terrorists then we can talk about how your 500,000 man Army, 90,000 Marine Core and greatest Air Force and Navy in the world are wasting their time, sitting on their hands everywhere from Japan to the US homeland while innocent Afghans and Pakistanis are dying. This line of argument would certainly apply in accordance with your logic.:rofl:

you're welcome to continue coloring your discourse with this expressive verbage and self-righteous insinuations but please help me to separate our lap-dogs in Kabul from those in Islamabad and New Delhi, won't you? We have so many scattered about and they all appear and speak the same- usually with an arm extended while demanding more money. It's often hard to know one from the other...or really care, I suppose.

AM is the one with ‘self righteous insinuations’ is he now? Let’s not forget that it is US/NATO who are the ones propping a regime of corrupt war/drug lords in Afghanistan…many of whom are known human-rights criminals AND all of them have territorial designs and ambitions against Pakistan. Neither has the US tried to negate these concerns by demanding or even suggesting that the Afghan regime accept the sovereignty of Pakistan’s borders nor have they tried to stop the poppy cultivation that is pumping drugs and rebel money into Pakistan on a daily basis. And that’s not even taking into account unwarranted Indian involvement. Despite this you treat us as if we are the ones disrespecting your national security concerns? As if some how you have the right to lord over us because you are so much more efficient and free from any blame? Like you so characteristically put it, I suppose in your view “lap-dogs” are meant to be treated this way eh? Now that sort of thing is called 'monstrous arrogance' around here.

This world is all about inter-dependability, and almost ALL Pakistanis think that US is undependable, selfish AND self-righteous. The only reason you are here is because you need Pakistan, probably more than Pakistan needs you. And as far as Pakistan is concerned, you owe us every dollar of that aid…not because we have been your loyal allies from the start of the Cold War, not because we always helped you advance your foreign policy, not because we helped you defeat the USSR, not because you dropped and Afghanistan like a new born giraffe at the first sign of victory against the USSR (you have paid for that already), not because you couldn’t conduct a proper invasion of a broken country like Afghanistan in 2001 and let the bulk of these criminals escape into Pakistani tribal borders which everyone KNEW have been unguarded for centuries, but because if you don’t have an ally in Pakistan your War on Terror will go to hell.

(And don’t even think about bloody trying to threaten us with invasion, the US is in no position militarily, politically or economically even if it wasn’t for our nuclear weapons)

Sheesh!? And you call us arrogant?
Yup. We do.:agree:
 
if you really want to play into the hands of the Indians, keep the bulk of your forces in the Punjab facing them. You get weaker by the day without a shot fired on that front. Since you're worried about paying salaries to your army, I'd use them where there's a shooting war while you can rather than sit on a border that will never see a bullet fired in anger. Employed? Yes. Gainfully? No.

Makes sense to me. Just imagine, maybe you could actually DO something about S. Waziristan instead of demanding patience while most of your army sits in Punjab facing an Indian Army with a massive case of the giggles.

Is that another subtle attempt at telling us to "do more" or the same as "we know better" one. :) Pakistan already has more troops there than the US and NATO comb and the number will continue to remain higher even after the planned surge. Our security paradigm could not have been oversimplified :lol:. But it could be simplified provided you get the Indians to solve the disputes with us,( list of which keeps increasing, the recent one being stoppage of water flow ) followed by a non aggression pact. We keep our troops there because we can't afford to let our guard down since quite frankly our vulnerable borders there may be exploited by Indians either unilaterally or on your signal for gaining a leverage when necessary in having your way ( possibility does exist no matter however far fetched and remote it may seem ) and did the Indians not eye this opportunity in 2002. Why don't you tell or suggest the Indians to pull their forces from the borders first. Pakistan will gladly follow the suit, after all, u dont expect us to be the agressors particularly under existing conditions... do u ????? :hitwall:

One thing more about the issue of best troops and lesser troops. I doubt that the light infantry is less proficient than the mechanized, both have specific roles and and train themselves to master their respective roles. Change over of role for mechanized troops would lead to erosion of conventional skills and can you risk that in an unenviable situation that we find ourselves today. what's your take on US army's conventional skills, are they as good as they were in first Gulf war. I know, you'd argue that US army doesnt need them anymore but hypothetically speaking if you were to agree on the threat to our eastern borders, would you risk changing the roles to erode the hard earned acquired skills.
 
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I see. Thanks for the insight.

That "superficial interpretation" was presented by the author and the general's intent needs no unique insight.

"What I see in the General's comments is in fact a pragmatism and willingness to move forward provided the US gets of its high horse and arrogance and actually move to meet halfway, by addressing Pakistani concerns"

The general's words speak far better for himself than you. None of your interpretation was present so please don't unfairly shape his message with "high horse" and "arrogance". Certainly not when he speaks with such pragmatism even if from the narrowly shaped perspective of a professional soldier whose career has been spent looking at the Indian Army.

He very much, btw, reminds me of so many officers and former officers from my era who continue (and even quietly root) to see Russian bogey-men under every rock. It's only those young guys like Shek and over at C.I.A. that see A.Q. and OBL under rocks. Us old guys know the real threat. Yup. The Russians and their lackeys, the Indians, are comin' to get us all. Don't muss up the general's message. Whaddaya know? You're not a soldier and never will be.

OTOH, if you really want to play into the hands of the Indians, keep the bulk of your forces in the Punjab facing them. You get weaker by the day without a shot fired on that front. Since you're worried about paying salaries to your army, I'd use them where there's a shooting war while you can rather than sit on a border that will never see a bullet fired in anger. Employed? Yes. Gainfully? No.

Makes sense to me. Just imagine, maybe you could actually DO something about S. Waziristan instead of demanding patience while most of your army sits in Punjab facing an Indian Army with a massive case of the giggles.

Unattributed innuendo about C.I.A. seeing bogey-men everywhere and your opinions of Iraq are hardly conclusive nor advance the discussion. Just my opinion, of course but I hope that you'll avoid more of this henceforth. Save Iraq for another time as I fully disagree with you and would be happy to go toe-to-toe anytime- but not here. Meanwhile, I'd appreciate the links to these writers that I may further mature while enhancing my long-term pragmatic vision.

OTOH, you're welcome to continue coloring your discourse with this expressive verbage and self-righteous insinuations but please help me to separate our lap-dogs in Kabul from those in Islamabad and New Delhi, won't you? We have so many scattered about and they all appear and speak the same- usually with an arm extended while demanding more money. It's often hard to know one from the other...or really care, I suppose.

Sheesh!?:undecided: And you call us arrogant?:disagree:

What is that... Anyone else smell that?..."Sniff,Sniff"...Smell's like BS!

:yahoo: Another Armchair analyst with no real understanding of Pakistan's internal dynamics. Just for us Pakis here "Humaray fauj ke Jawan paisey ya tail pe nahi, kaddu or roti pe chaltey hain"...
 
To assorted nationalist riff-raff, thanks for your meandering contributions. They're all duly noted.

Move your troops. You've an imperative on your western border and cannot afford the luxury of wallowing in contented somnolence in the Punjab while your west burns.

Your sovereignty seems a device of convenience. We see it as something practiced daily and with uniform application and all that's missing from Pakistan. Until there's something considerably more tangible than one combat op over three months in one small district, you'll understand (doubtful, actually) that we've concerns over your massive dispostions in regions un-needed save for old habits with old enemies that only exist in your mind.

Quit fighting windmills and point your army to where it matters while you can still afford to pay for the privilege of having an army at all.

Just a bit of friendly advice from an unabashed neo-con minion of the Great Satan...:devil::usflag:

Next time take a number, please?:lol:
 
S2 what to do then with the potential threat from the West plus reorgansing an army with a limited budget for COIN ops would be rash and IMO foolhardy.

From what I've read the heavy handed tactics seen in Swat and Bajaur destroys militant infrastructure that has mostly been abandoned and left guarded by a vanguard.

The alleged militant casualties have also come under critism for being exagggerated.
 
There's no arrogance to our policies and actions with Pakistan. Your borders aren't sacrosanct-proven by your inept negligence of such region in too many ways- border control, economic development, policing.

It's lawless there today nevermind it's violent past.

I've noted no public official lecture your leaders. None. What our elected representatives say is their choice and they're not guided by policy and every right to express themselves as they see fit.

Two of those gentlemen shall be our next president and vice-president and have some interesting perspectives on your nation. If arrogance, though, is quiet disagreement, I don't expect that we'll be turning the keys of our ship of state over to your judgement anytime soon.

However burdened by assorted mistakes, they pale comparatively. We have a hard time trusting that our freely-offered largesse of money and goods will be used wisely. Here's the comments of one board-member to that issue-

"I voiced similar concerns of money goign down the drain if the Biden Lugar Bill simply handed money over to the politicians in Pakistan.

In fact the whole process of aid and loans being given to developing countries is being rethought, since much of it has not done what it was supposed to because of corruption and mismanagement.

Demanding that governments come up with specific and feasible programs and proposals of how the aid or money will be utilized and the funding only those projects is a much better way to approach the issue. It also allows for an ability to chart progress year to year (or whatever period) to ensure the the funds disbursed are being utilized in the proper fashion."
Oct. 22, 2008

Here's the same voice of reason on Nov. 4, 2008-

"With Pakistan staring at default, why no move to release these 'long term assistance funds'? Why the continued delay in reimbursement of an estimated 800 million USD for operations and logistical support in FATA? Instead, we actually have a US controlled institution like the IMF forcing the World Bank to cancel an already approved 300 million USD loan to Pakistan, ostensibly so it can impose its own stringent conditions"

"Ostensibly"? Really? This from the same soul demanding that programs be developed with accountability paramount, he now screeches to start tossin' the cash.

Personally, I find getting jack-slapped a bit rude and arrogant as I'm asked for more money but little input to it's use. That likely won't work.

Just sayin'. No arrogance there.:devil::usflag:
 
"reorgansing an army with a limited budget for COIN ops would be rash and IMO foolhardy."

Why? More India? OUR army is being neutered of it's heavy force projection capability for the same reasons and the gnashing of teeth associated with this by old dinosaurs like myself just doesn't meet the imperatives of the times which are imposed on us. We're having a very hard time getting one shoe to fit all and have made DECISIVE changes to our force structure and capabilities to respond to the present requirements.

As example, it's nothing to see an artillery battery conduct a fire-mission while a provisional platoon formed from it's ranks conduct a presence-patrol in a near-by village or town. Happens all the time now but you'd NEVER have seen this as recent as seven years ago.

Times change. So do demands. The war is in the west, JK, and that's where your soldiers can be put to best use today.

"From what I've read the heavy handed tactics seen in Swat and Bajaur destroys militant infrastructure that has mostly been abandoned and left guarded by a vanguard.

The alleged militant casualties have also come under critism for being exagggerated."


Perhaps. Perhaps not. There seems some hyperbole attached to some P.A. press releases. No doubt your military and gov't are eager to share their successes and might occasionally overstate recent actions.

As to enemy rear-guards manning largely vacant positions, that also may be but those positions must be taken anyway, the facilities inspected as part of the lessons-learned process and the writ of state reasserted. So whether there seem to be targets galore or not, you need boots on the ground that intend to stay.

Those guys in the east would be more useful where bullets are actually flying.

Here's the ultimate and tangible symbol of commitment to your new obligations- abandon wholesale your defenses in the east. Bare your belly and DARE the Indians to attack with only a border constabulary to guard your sovereignty.

Be amazed as the Indians do nothing. They won't be able. You'd STUN them into paralysis is my guess.
 
Next time take a number, please?

LOL, over kill.

You've an imperative on your western border and cannot afford the luxury of wallowing in contented somnolence in the Punjab while your west burns

As much as we all appreciate your "concern", I think it is relevent to point out that we will be the bloody judge of what we can afford and what we cant, so thank you very much.

that we've concerns over your massive dispostions in regions un-needed save for old habits with old enemies that only exist in your mind.

Those "massive" "dispositions" are their bloody homes, look to your own massive blunders before accusing us of being delusional.

Quit fighting windmills and point your army to where it matters while you can still afford to pay for the privilege of having an army at all.

LOLOLOL, someone is getting nasty:disagree:...

Be amazed as the Indians do nothing. They won't be able. You'd STUN them into paralysis is my guess.

Afraid we cant put the future of our nation on the line based on your "guesses".:lol:
 
I dont know why our General's bother with War College and Westpoint/Sandhurst! They should come here for advice and guidance! Forget National Defence College!
 
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"Afraid we cant put the future of our nation on the line based on your 'guesses'."

Baring your belly is, indeed, radical and is an expression of my confidence that no harm would come by doing so. It's offered, btw, from 6,000 miles distant. However, your future is already in the hands of this man. Disagree with him and change HIS mind-

"India has never been a threat to Pakistan" and...

"I, for one, and our democratic government is not scared of Indian influence abroad."

Overnight your world would turn for the better as you rediscover vast resources heretofore unavailable. Zardari's correct, largely. His praetorian, Kiyani, hasn't uttered one word of disagreement. Fruit trucks are passing through the LOC.

Catch a clue...:agree:
 
Just a bit of friendly advice from an unabashed neo-con minion of the Great Satan...:devil::usflag:

S-2, you shouldn't use the term "Great Satan" because you will get an infraction. :) :usflag:
 
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