US Drone strikes in Pakistan are illegal under international law.

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

man problem of PA is not absence of precise missile but lack of political will of GOP because sooner or later you have drive out these thugs and extremists. Full fledged war is on you ,weather you risk it or not. Later the hour of war harder it will be.

Sorry, but I do not see the situation as clear cut as you make it out to be, and I have argued why in my previous posts. Pontifications like these do little in terms of analyzing the situation from a realistic and pragmatic perspective.

And equipment does play a role as do the right tactics - dropping bombs and leveling a school full of children along with ten militants is only going to make the situation worse.

 

[S-2]

You won't have discrete separation of operations- a series of military campaigns followed by a pacification campaign for a variety of reasons-

The government likely cannot afford to de-populate the area. The population is already quite large relative to Bajaur and we've seen the issues there. They may not WISH to leave and to where would they go? In addition, you've already an immense population of Afghanis in refugee camps in this area, do you not?

Forcible repatriation? Not a very COINish start.

That's part of the P.A.'s headache. The lessons of Bajaur extend far beyond the enemy's particular talents. They include the limits of civil capacity. The GoP cannot afford a Bajaur writ large.

A comprehensive COIN-driven solution for the Waziristans will entail the full range of combat operations synchronized to the full range of pacification operations in a constantly-adjusted and fluid solution set. Your troops may be digging a well and a half-mile away another unit might be in contact. And reversed by sunset.

No rear area. Everybody is a COIN operator. Everybody is a heart-breaking, life-taking soldier one moment and a good samaritan the next.

"Have a plan to greet everybody with a smile, say hello, provide aid and assistance but immediately kill everybody present if necessary."

Now, mind you, I didn't say DO IT...but you'd better be ready. Things change in a heartbeat during COIN ops.

Then there's Murphy-

Murphy's Laws Of Combat

If the enemy is in range, so are you.

Incoming fire has the right of way.

Don't look conspicuous, it draws fire.

There is always a way.

The easy way is always mined.

Try to look unimportant, they may be low on ammo.

Professionals are predictable, it's the amateurs that are dangerous.

The enemy invariably attacks on two occasions: a. When you're ready for them. b. When you're not ready for them.

Teamwork is essential, it gives them someone else to shoot at.

If you can't remember, the claymore is pointed at you.

The enemy diversion you have been ignoring will be the main attack.

A "sucking chest wound" is natures way of telling you to slow down.

If your attack is going well, you have walked into an ambush.

Never draw fire, it irritates everyone around you.

Anything you do can get you shot, including nothing.

Make it tough enough for the enemy to get in and you won't be able to get out.

Never share a foxhole with anyone braver than yourself.

If you are short of everything but the enemy, you are in a combat zone.

When you have secured an area, don't forget to tell the enemy.

Never forget that your weapon is made by the lowest bidder.

 

[Kasrkin]

Brian Cloughley is a commentator on political and military affairs, specializing in South Asia, and is South Asia defense, security, terrorism and strategy analyst for Janes Sentinel.
He served in the British and Australian armies and spent nine years as an artillery officer on regimental duty, mainly as a forward observer. He saw active service in Borneo with 42 Commando, Royal Marines; 1st Battalion Sarawak Rangers; and 4th Battalion of the Royal Australian Regiment. He also served as an intelligence officer in Cyprus at the end of colonial rule, on attachment with the Jordan Desert Police Force, as reconnaissance and survey officer in a nuclear missile regiment in Germany, and officer commanding the Australian Psychological Operations Unit in Vietnam.
Later appointments included deputy head of the UN mission in Kashmir (1980-982); Staff Officer 1 (Force Structure) in Australian Army HQ (during which time he was appointed to the Order of Australia, or AM); Director of Protocol for the Australian Defence Force, and Australian defense attaché in Islamabad. This guy has had private interviews with Zia, Musharraf and Kayani.

His book on the Pakistan Army is a must read for anyone concerned with the region according to Research Director Fort Leavenworth: “provides deeper understanding and some candid, and not altogether flattering assessments of Pakistan and the United States”.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

S-2:

What we saw in Bajaur was taliban entrenched in fortified structures in towns and villages, and with assorted tunnels and ambush traps, sniper nests etc. around the towns and villages.

Taliban informants and observers likely everywhere, so how exactly do you approach this other than what the military did in Bajaur?

I am not suggesting that reconstruction not start as areas come under control, but I do not see how large scale dislocation of the residents is avoidable. I am not aware of the numbers of Afghan refugees in the area, but this UNHCR map seems to indicate a limited number of refugee settlements in the Waziristan's.

http://www.unhcr.org/publ/PUBL/3cc91a0b2.pdf

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

FM's Brian Cloughley thread merged.

 

[S-2]

"...how exactly do you approach this other than what the military did in Bajaur?"

I don't know. You may be correct that the only possible approach is open combat until the land is subjugated. It is pointless IMV to send aid/NGOs where their work can't be protected and their efforts pointless if immediately destroyed or not synchronized to the people's needs.

It is equally pointless to establish time-lines. Nothing about this work is linear. Not the combat and neither the re-construction.

Your map was great. A black hole with two camps west of Dera Ismail Khan and nothing else. THAT, btw, says tons, doesn't it?

Thanks.

 

[osamaziadxb]

those u can buy Daily Jang can see the news that tribesmen r saying that Drone attack killd civilians only..
thankx

 

[roadrunner]

those u can buy Daily Jang can see the news that tribesmen r saying that Drone attack killd civilians only..
thankx

I think the Brian Cloughley piece was quite good. He sums it up nicely here

"The people killed illegally by the US within Pakistan could well have been evil. The world may be a better place for their being blasted to unidentifiable blood-streaked gobbets of flesh by CIA missiles. But we don’t know, because no evidence is ever provided by the killers. They say they know who is guilty (in their terms); so act as judge, jury and executioner."

In effect, it's carte blanche to kill anyone and get away with it. We'll never know, and the tribesmen certainly believe the drones are targeting civilians.

I think a part of the instability in Pakistan is caused by these drone strikes. A major part is simply because of the war next door. But the drones do add fuel to the fire in my opinion.

 

[Awesome]

You have no proof of this statement. None. Nada. It's just your opinion and irhabi sympathy shining through.

There you go, the reason I never caught onto this irhabi fad was that I knew it would ultimately be used against Muslim civilians who oppose the war. Awesome.

Chalk that up to yet another derogatory racial slur in the midst!

 

[fatman17]

Waziristan:
One area of the world where US Predator and Reapers have undertaken strikes against suspected al-Qaeda and Taliban fighters in the tribal region of northwest Pakistan known as Waziristan. The region borders Afghanistan. According to the US state department the region has 157 suspected al-Qaeda training camps.

The first US cross-border strike inside Waziristan was reported to have taken place in 2006. Ten such strikes were recorded during 2006 and 2007, escalating to 36 last year, 29 of which took place after August 31.

According to US state department accounts, five senior al-Qaeda leaders were killed in 2008, all of whom were reportedly involved in supporting al-Qaeda operations.

US STRIKES IN WAZIRISTAN 2008.

DATE.......LOCATION..........TYPE...................REPORTED FATALITIES
August 31.....S/Waziristan.......al-Qaeda safe house.....five killed
August 31.....Tapi,N/Waziristan.al-Qaeda safe house....six killed inc 2 .............................................................................women
Sept 1..........Ghundal Kalley.....MQ-1 fired 2 hellfire AGMs...Eight, six
................................................................................suspected arabs,
................................................................................a woman and her
................................................................................young daughter.
Sept 4.....Mohammed Khel......MQ-9 fired 3 hellfire AGMs....5 arabs
Sept4......Mohammed Khel.............................................6 and 4 injured.
Sept 8.....Tanda Darpakhel.....6 Hellfires struck a madrassa.26 inc Abu
...............................................................................Haris,Hamza
...............................................................................Arabi,Qasim
...............................................................................Hamza and Musa
...............................................................................Arabi, all al-Qaeda
................................................................................operatives.
Sept 12....Miranshah............Hellfire missile hit 2 houses....7 Taliban fighters,
...............................................................................3 women and 2
...............................................................................children.
Sept 15....N/Waziristan.........Compound.................................................
Sept 17....Baghar Cheena......4 Hellfires hit a training camp.5 killed.
Oct 1.......Mir Ali,N/Wazir...... Hellfire struck a house..........4 killed inc
................................................................................Taliban leader
................................................................................Baitullah Mahsud
................................................................................(?)
Oct 3.....Mohammed Khel......MQ-1 fired a hellfire missile....21 militants killed
Oct 3.....Datta Khel.............MQ-1 fired 2 hellfire AGMs.....2 women & a child
Oct 11...Match, N/Wazir.......2 hellfires hit a house...........3 killed
Oct 16...Saam,N/Wazir.........2 hellfires hit a house...........6 killed inc 2 arabs
Oct 16...Taparghal..............hellfire missile......................Egyptian Khalid
...............................................................................Habib, chief of al-...............................................................................Qaeda ops and 3
...............................................................................others.
Oct 27..Wana,S/Wazir.........Compound...........................20 Killed
Nov 7...Kamsham,N/Wazir.....2 hellfire missiles..................13 Taliban killed
Nov 14.Shabikhel, N/Wazir....2 hellfires struck a taliban hut.10 Taliban killed
Nov 18.Bannu,N/Wazir.........hellfire missile......................6 inc al-Qaeda
...............................................................................fighter Abdullah
...............................................................................Azam Al-Saudi.
Dec 22.Kari Khel and Sheen Warsak.hellfire struck a vehicle.7 Taliban killed
Jan 1-09.Kari Kot, S/Wazir..2 hellfires hit a vehicle............2 top al-Qaeda
...............................................................................militants, Usama
...............................................................................al-Kini and Sheikh
...............................................................................Ahmad Salim
...............................................................................Swedan killed.
Jan 2...Maidan Naral, S/Wazir. hellfire struck a hideout......4 al-Qaeda killed
Jan 24.Mir Ali and Wana,S/Wazir.3 hellfires struck a house.20 Taliban killed.

From AFM, April-09

 

[JK!]

Ah if only you could put up some of the great pics from this article fatman. Still it was a very illuminating piece.

 

[S-2]

Is there a link, please?

I'd love to read it.

 

[Tombstone]

That's awful! Most of the reaper hits must have been wayyyyy off but of course america would always say that suspected militants were hiding in an innocent family's house.

I seriously wonder if more insurgents died due to the drone attacks than innocent people.

 

[Patriot]

That's awful! Most of the reaper hits must have been wayyyyy off but of course america would always say that suspected militants were hiding in an innocent family's house.

I seriously wonder if more insurgents died due to the drone attacks than innocent people.

Dude i've seen Reaper videos and they are no innnocent people.Not even the children who were training.had they not been killed by Americans, they would be blowing themselves in Lahore, Isl, and Karachi now.

 

[Tombstone]

Dude i've seen Reaper videos and they are no innnocent people.Not even the children who were training.had they not been killed by Americans, they would be blowing themselves in Lahore, Isl, and Karachi now.

You can't ignore the negative side of these attacks. How many reaper videos were released to you by the American UAV operation's staff?

You must have seen some videos but you cant deny that innocent people are a part of those attacks. Do you remember the time when Pakistan Army's post was bombed by the americans in FATA? Do you think that was an intelligence failure on their part? if they can kill our own army personnel that way then theres no credibility about their attacks in FATA. Sure there have been some important hits from the UAVs but there have been innocent deaths as well. Including our own army personnel.