US 'biggest' threat, say Pakistani Polls

[muse]

Tallman

Such a call as the Danish newspaper has printed would be more effective, were the paper not seen as deliberately incendiary and provocative.

Those who suggest that secularism is a outlook that best gaurantees rights, in particular freedom of religion, must not resort to subjective secularism, that is to say they must not deny religion space in culture and in conscience.

The radicals who drafted the call in the Danish paper, to me, to my understanding, are most certainly not persuaded by Objective secularism and this is why they did not have crediblity.

Criticism of types of religiosity, of doctrines and dogma and practices associated with various religions are of course open to critical review - however; what is the point of criticism of religion itself? And curiously, why is it that only Islam merits such?

The antogonistic and highly provocative exchanges between extremes (Islamists and secular radicals) have little of value to the general public other than as vehicles to further the polical agendas of these extremes.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

It does not matter These people hate us because they have nothing. they live on a few hundred dollars a year. The Taliban and their sympathizers are poor, downtrodden, and lack any hope. They need something, anything, to drive them. Hate easily fills this void, and they are told that Jews and the West are the cause of all their woes. Thus the seeds are sown.

Oh please, lets not start with this canard of 'they hate us because we are rich and they are poor'. Move beyond this shallow and intellectually bankrupt argument already.

So many Pakistanis dislike the US not because of its prosperity or their own poverty, but because the US has betrayed and abandoned Pakistan time and again - stolen our money, stolen the equipment that money was meant to buy, refused to deliver militarty supplies during war, and sanctioned us for pursuing strategic programs to defend oursleves.

Its media and intellectuals have denigrated and vilified us, and in its most recent endeavors in Afghanistan, its invasion and occupation acted as the catalyst for the rise of the Pakistani Taliban movement that has cost Pakistan dearly in lives and economic growth, and continues to do so.

On top of all that, the US has continued to violate Pakistani sovereignty through ground incursions and drone attacks, attempting to force Pakistan to adopt US ideas and policies on how to handle the insurgency.

The dislike directed towards the US is every bit deserved, and poverty, illiteracy and backwardness has nothing to do with it.

 

[tallman]

Oh please, lets not start with this canard of 'they hate us because we are rich and they are poor'. Move beyond this shallow and intellectually bankrupt argument already.

So many Pakistanis dislike the US not because of its prosperity or their own poverty, but because the US has betrayed and abandoned Pakistan time and again - stolen our money, stolen the equipment that money was meant to buy, refused to deliver militarty supplies during war, and sanctioned us for pursuing strategic programs to defend oursleves.

Its media and intellectuals have denigrated and vilified us, and in its most recent endeavors in Afghanistan, its invasion and occupation acted as the catalyst for the rise of the Pakistani Taliban movement that has cost Pakistan dearly in lives and economic growth, and continues to do so.

On top of all that, the US has continued to violate Pakistani sovereignty through ground incursions and drone attacks, attempting to force Pakistan to adopt US ideas and policies on how to handle the insurgency.

The dislike directed towards the US is every bit deserved, and poverty, illiteracy and backwardness has nothing to do with it.

O you poor thing.... Since 2002, the United States has provided Pakistan with approximately $12.3 billion, $8.6 billion of it military, according to the Government Accountability Office.

Quit Whineing

The corruptions in Pakistan is so bad,,, it really diffcult to know where the money really goes....

 

[tallman]

Tallman

Such a call as the Danish newspaper has printed would be more effective, were the paper not seen as deliberately incendiary and provocative.

Those who suggest that secularism is a outlook that best gaurantees rights, in particular freedom of religion, must not resort to subjective secularism, that is to say they must not deny religion space in culture and in conscience.

The radicals who drafted the call in the Danish paper, to me, to my understanding, are most certainly not persuaded by Objective secularism and this is why they did not have crediblity.

Criticism of types of religiosity, of doctrines and dogma and practices associated with various religions are of course open to critical review - however; what is the point of criticism of religion itself? And curiously, why is it that only Islam merits such?

The antogonistic and highly provocative exchanges between extremes (Islamists and secular radicals) have little of value to the general public other than as vehicles to further the polical agendas of these extremes.

Perhaps Islam is the only religion that has burned people alive over Blasphemy lately.

 

[SeaGull]

Oh please, lets not start with this canard of 'they hate us because we are rich and they are poor'. Move beyond this shallow and intellectually bankrupt argument already.

So many Pakistanis dislike the US not because of its prosperity or their own poverty, but because the US has betrayed and abandoned Pakistan time and again - stolen our money, stolen the equipment that money was meant to buy, refused to deliver militarty supplies during war, and sanctioned us for pursuing strategic programs to defend oursleves.

Its media and intellectuals have denigrated and vilified us, and in its most recent endeavors in Afghanistan, its invasion and occupation acted as the catalyst for the rise of the Pakistani Taliban movement that has cost Pakistan dearly in lives and economic growth, and continues to do so.

On top of all that, the US has continued to violate Pakistani sovereignty through ground incursions and drone attacks, attempting to force Pakistan to adopt US ideas and policies on how to handle the insurgency.

The dislike directed towards the US is every bit deserved, and poverty, illiteracy and backwardness has nothing to do with it.

While I am all praises for your closing sentence. Just wanted to point out a few things missed out here:

> The drones attacking and killing your people are operated out of bases inside Pakistan.
> The catalyst in the rise of the Pakistani Taliban had as much to do with Pakistan joining into the coalition of war on terror.
Where are those leaders, who are equally to blame for the mess that Pakistan finds itself in. I think your Quaid e Azam would have been proud of you on this eve of your independence day.
It is always the LEADERS who make or break their own people.

It is important for the Pakistanis to ruminate on where they went wrong in the first place. And what better time for you start now - the joyful anniversary of your INDEPENDENCE.

TO ALL OUR BROTHERS AND SISTERS IN PAKISTAN 'A MEMORABLE AND HAPPY INDEPENDENCE DAY FROM ALL OF US IN THE EAST'

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

O you poor thing.... Since 2002, the United States has provided Pakistan with approximately $12.3 billion, $8.6 billion of it military, according to the Government Accountability Office.

Quit Whineing

The corruptions in Pakistan is so bad,,, it really diffcult to know where the money really goes....

Read this about where that money went.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/economy-development/30821-where-did-10-billion-us-aid-pakistan-go.html

Most of it was not your money, but Pakistan's, for logistical support and services rendered, and without us charging interest during the ridiculous delays in getting our money reimbursed.

In addition, while you moan and whine about 12.3 billion, the Paksitani economy has lost over 30 billion USD by the estimates so far, as a direct result of the insurgency and terrorism in Pakistan sparked by the US invasion and occupation of Afghanistan.

So try deceiving someone else with your phony stats, though your poor attempt at sarcasm was expected once your 'jealous of our prosperity' canard got torn to shreds.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

While I am all praises for your closing sentence. Just wanted to point out a few things missed out here:

> The drones attacking and killing your people are operated out of bases inside Pakistan.

That is still speculation - NATO does not fly all its aircraft out of Pakistani bases, and if it can operate larger aircraft from Afghanistan, then it can do the same for the drones. My opinion is that the drones out of Pakistan story is done to mislead and suggest to the public that the US is not really doing anything that Pakistan is seriously opposed to.

> The catalyst in the rise of the Pakistani Taliban had as much to do with Pakistan joining into the coalition of war on terror.

But there would be no coalition to join were there no invasion and occupation of Afghanistan. And Pakistan woudl have been dragged in one way or the other, since the Pashtun belt, especially the Tribal areas, was inflamed because of the invasion. The Pakistani Taliban would have arisen regardless of whether Pakistan joined the coalition or not, as a means of supporting their brethren in Afghanistan.

Where are those leaders, who are equally to blame for the mess that Pakistan finds itself in. I think your Quaid e Azam would have been proud of you on this eve of your independence day.
It is always the LEADERS who make or break their own people.

Sometimes there just are no good options, so one must pick the least damaging. The US decision to invade and occupy Afghanistan was one such occasion when Pakistan was confronted with no good options, and picked what it thought was the least damaging to Pakistan at the time.

It is important for the Pakistanis to ruminate on where they went wrong in the first place. And what better time for you start now - the joyful anniversary of your INDEPENDENCE.

It is important to contemplate on what went wrong - I think this forum serves as a platform for introspection and discourse in its own small way.

One such lesson is to never trust the US.

TO ALL OUR BROTHERS AND SISTERS IN PAKISTAN 'A MEMORABLE AND HAPPY INDEPENDENCE DAY FROM ALL OF US IN THE EAST'

Thank you so very much, and may you and your nation prosper as well. We were brothers and compatriots once.

 

[dbc]

"stolen our money, stolen the equipment that money was meant to buy"

Stolen? That money was returned to Pakistan in 2003 your former Prime Minister Mir Zafarullah Khan Jamali said so in an interview to a Saudi newspaper Okaz.

its invasion and occupation acted as the catalyst for the rise of the Pakistani Taliban movement that has cost Pakistan dearly in lives and economic growth, and continues to do so.

Invasion? The UN and 40 other nations disagree.

“…acted as the catalyst for the rise of the Pakistani Taliban” You made a funny! No wait, you're serious if what you say is true then what are these people doing in FATA. The bad guys, the invaders, the crusaders are several miles west of FATA.

the US has betrayed and abandoned Pakistan time and again

Like we did in 2005 with a billion dollars in US government funds for earthquake relief? Not to mention 16.5 billion in aid from 1947 to 2007. Or, did we betray Pakistan by supporting its economy through imports worth 3.5 billion$ every year – making us your biggest export destination.
With enemies like us – who really needs friends? Or, in Pakistani lexicon friendship entails a trade deficit of 7.5 billion$ - your dear friends are laughing all the way to the 上海 bank.
On top of all that, the US has continued to violate Pakistani sovereignty through ground incursions and drone attacks

A flip-flop worthy of a politician, sometimes you say drone strikes have your governments tacit approval other times you say we violate your sovereignty. Make up your mind, and when you decide we’ve violated your sovereignty then do what other countries do - wage war!

 

[arihant]

Same speculations are rendered for each other.
Indian Experts says China bigger threat than Pakistan.
Pakistani Experts says US. Biggest threat than India.
But still India and Pakistan are considered wildest rival of each other.

 

[SeaGull]

That is still speculation - NATO does not fly all its aircraft out of Pakistani bases, and if it can operate larger aircraft from Afghanistan, then it can do the same for the drones. My opinion is that the drones out of Pakistan story is done to mislead and suggest to the public that the US is not really doing anything that Pakistan is seriously opposed to.

But there would be no coalition to join were there no invasion and occupation of Afghanistan. And Pakistan woudl have been dragged in one way or the other, since the Pashtun belt, especially the Tribal areas, was inflamed because of the invasion. The Pakistani Taliban would have arisen regardless of whether Pakistan joined the coalition or not, as a means of supporting their brethren in Afghanistan.


Sometimes there just are no good options, so one must pick the least damaging. The US decision to invade and occupy Afghanistan was one such occasion when Pakistan was confronted with no good options, and picked what it thought was the least damaging to Pakistan at the time.


It is important to contemplate on what went wrong - I think this forum serves as a platform for introspection and discourse in its own small way.

One such lesson is to never trust the US.


Thank you so very much, and may you and your nation prosper as well. We were brothers and compatriots once.

While you provide me with pretty lame arguments that I can easily contest - but I am not getting into the nitty gritty of it - Just content in the thought that you are contemplating.
And yes this FORUM does provide a platform to discuss and thrash out the issues that face us today and how possibly we can overcome them.
Thank you very much indeed for wishing us well. We still are brothers and will remain so. I have never blamed the Pakistanis for the injustice. It was the leaders who were responsible then, as they are now.
My Good Wishes
To YOU ALL

 

[Patriot]

With enemies like us – who really needs friends? Or, in Pakistani lexicon friendship entails a trade deficit of 7.5 billion$ - your dear friends are laughing all the way to the 上海 bank.

Actually yes, friendship with US is actually more dangerous then being enemy of US.As Henry Kissinger once put it, while being America's enemy is sometimes inconvenient, being America's friend is invariably fatal.

 

[arihant]

Actually yes, friendship with US is actually more dangerous then being enemy of US.As Henry Kissinger once put it, while being America's enemy is sometimes inconvenient, being America's friend is invariably fatal.

North Korea is enemy of US (as of now), and looks, it is one of the most powerful nation now.

 

[tallman]

North Korea is enemy of US (as of now), and looks, it is one of the most powerful nation now.

There is something wrong with some one that considers N Korea a powerful nation.

 

[maraetiny]

There is something wrong with some one that considers N Korea a powerful nation.

Either that or you simply didn't get his sarcasm

 

[Spring Onion]

A crucial question missing was whether you favor permitting the afghan taliban to conduct an insurgency upon Afghanistan from Pakistani lands.

Not insurgency. The appropriate question would have been; whether you consider fight against invaders in Afghanistan , right or worng.

That would have shed much light on the anti-American sentiment here.

Most Pakistanis do, I suspect. Most have been sold that "strategic depth" in Afghanistan can only be gained via the gun and naturally see America standing in the way.

I would differe due to reasons:

1. Most of the Pakistani population is illiterate and can not be sold the notion strategic depath.

You said "most of the Pakistanis have been sold the notion of Strategic depth" whereas it is not possible because most of the Pakistani do not know what does strategic depth means in the first place nor they are interested in it.
And the reason is Pakistan with a population of nearly 170 million in 2008, has low literacy.
Around 67.5 per cent of its total population, and 80 per cent of the poor live in rural areas where access to media is not that much high.

2. For selling the idea of Strategic depth you need to mass media campaign but that too is not possible in our case because aalthough there had been a media boom in Pakistan recently but still total access to TV is 35.32 percent followed by radio at 23.94 percent and newspapers at 21.20 percent.
(BTW the above figures also show that the survey in discussion is not based on facts)


3. Now the rest who are educated and can understand the geo-politics might be interested in strategic depth and how to attain it but still look at the figures showing the level of literate persons.
A mere 4.38 percent Pakistanis are university graduates with a paltry 1.58 percent holding a master’s degree. Only 17.29 percent of the school-going population qualifies the “matriculation” (10 years of education) examination and this figure further shrinks to just 6.56 percent qualifying as “intermediates” (12 years of education).
Now more than half of the above emphasis on finding jobs and other livelihood sources instead of pondering over geo-politics empty stomach.

4. There is small percentage of Pakistanis who are concerned about geo-politics and strategic depth and these also include us the internet warriors. Now if you call this small number of people as “Most of the Pakistanis” then sir indeed you are mistaken.
Such surveys are based on sentimental thinking which is outcome of US bombardment and killing in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan. It has nothing to do with selling of ideas about strategic depth.