US and India discuss ANTI -SUBMARINE warfare in latest move to keep China in check

[topgun047]

Nothing new India and US have been sharing locations of Chinese subs for quite some years.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

Nothing new India and US have been sharing locations of Chinese subs for quite some years.

I dont think so ; US had No interest or incentive to help India

May be our navy was impressing them with our own efforts on Tailing the
Chinese submarines ; hence USA would like to now tap into our experience in
The Indian Ocean

 

[GR!FF!N]

I already posted regarding this that USA's "Fish Hook" is possibly already got extended to India in some form of co-op..only a fool will think to left India out,which is dominant player in IN region...

If someone is wondering what is "Fish Hook",it is extensive undersea defense preparation of USA to choke PLAN in First Island Chain..highlighted by dotted lines here.

For more,please go through this book....

http://press.anu.edu.au/apps/bookworm/view/The+Tools+of+Owatatsumi/11441/cover.xhtml

 

[deckingraj]

Actually the weaponry sold to China is because of the Iron grip China is taking in Russian economy. They have some pretty big investments going on in Russia and they are making sure that they are heard.

Which is what i said...economics playing its part..no?? So in short Pakistan Russian bonhomie will have to wait unless and until they can prove to be a better market than India...simple!!....

And about trust, honestly to make it simple, would you sell Tejas to a country where you know Pakistan has access to military bases.

Pakistan and China are all weather friends...US and China are potential adversaries...yet i do see talks about more F-16's to Pakistan...are you saying that China is ripping apart those F-16's and learning US secrets?? All our strategic big ticket items are still Russian origin and i don't see them changing....we are still in talks for S-400, FGFA etc...so i am not sure what the fuss here is...The only part russian's wont like is loosing market like India to rivals like USA...this talk about India sharing their secrets with US or vice-versa is just imagination....

The interests of India and the US do not align much. America likes its allies to act in certain ways, which is not what the Indians do. Most American allies have not gotten the help they required and when the going gets tough, and usually tough because of American actions, the US will be MIA.

Can you please suggest what is that doesn't align?? The reason India and US relations have not gone full bang is exactly due to the second bold part. however this doesn't mean interests don't align...please throw some more light there....

Chinese actually are happy that India and US have gotten together because it makes the case easier for telling Russia to hold back.

That is foolish...Even India and Nepal getting together will not make China happy...leave aside India and US...Look the only country in Asia that can even think of being a counter power house to China is India.....The more India moves into US camp the more nervous China would be...because in India US would have a got a perfect proxy to check China's growing power....anyways nothing like that is going to happen...India and china are mature enough...

The other nation with which you are having your naval exercises is again never at total peace with Russia.
It will take time, but continuous closeness will pay dividends because when you are an American ally you have to agree with them, because they have taken you to 100 percent, and there is no more going up in their eyes. This agreeing will include sticky situations and it is not always easy to say no because America has an ability to totally forget the past.

Big powers have never taken a fight head on and will never do...so leave aside that part....In the age of nukes keep one thing in mind...should hostility between India and Pak happens China will never get involved physically...this is true with India-China equation as well.....only materialistic help is all we can expect.....logic is simple - only fools fight a nuclear war and only even bigger fools join that theater...

 

[Gufi]

Which is what i said...economics playing its part..no?? So in short Pakistan Russian bonhomie will have to wait unless and until they can prove to be a better market than India...simple!!....

I discussed Indo Russian relations in relationship with Indo US relationships and the dependancy of Russia on the Indian economy and China taking Indian place as what it should have been doing. Read what I wrote, do not bring Pakistan in it.
The market is not only buying but like India, Russia needs FDI and loans and India is not ready to give either but is investing in weapon systems of the west. Most Russian commodities other then defence are natural resources and they can go anywhere in the world.

Pakistan and China are all weather friends...US and China are potential adversaries...yet i do see talks about more F-16's to Pakistan...are you saying that China is ripping apart those F-16's and learning US secrets?? All our strategic big ticket items are still Russian origin and i don't see them changing....we are still in talks for S-400, FGFA etc...so i am not sure what the fuss here is...The only part russian's wont like is loosing market like India to rivals like USA...this talk about India sharing their secrets with US or vice-versa is just imagination....

We have Americans who have kept a check that no parts are tampered with. Wonder if India would allow Russians to do so?
The biggest issue for Russia is that it will lose its biggest ally. India was always pro Russia but at this time it will have to choose sides. Choosing sides is always a diplomatic no no and the US will expect India on its side. The two sides mostly are pro Russian and pro American or neutral. India remained neutral or pro Russian before, now it will have to reorient itself.

That is foolish...Even India and Nepal getting together will not make China happy...leave aside India and US...Look the only country in Asia that can even think of being a counter power house to China is India.....

Actually, the only thing China cares about it reducing Russian-Indian relationships
US and China are adversaries already and so are India and China.... That you accept
now add US India together and it does not change the formula much for China because both nations were already a threat and China has accepted a two front war from some time. Do look at Chinese anaylsis and you will find this.
But now the whole added Indo US friendship can be used to the advantage of distancing Russia and India which will really help China out..

Big powers have never taken a fight head on and will never do...so leave aside that part....In the age of nukes keep one thing in mind...should hostility between India and Pak happens China will never get involved physically...this is true with India-China equation as well.....only materialistic help is all we can expect.....logic is simple - only fools fight a nuclear war and only even bigger fools join that theater...

i was discussing India and Japan while you bring Pakistan in again. What type of answer is that -.-

 

[deckingraj]

I discussed Indo Russian relations in relationship with Indo US relationships and the dependancy of Russia on the Indian economy and China taking Indian place as what it should have been doing. Read what I wrote, do not bring Pakistan in it.

I think you need to do the same....check your very first post that i quoted...it is you who brought Pakistan in it by saying "There could be nothing better for us then this news"....no?? Anyways lets keep pakistan out of the equation as i believe in this context they have little role to play(Atleast at this stage)

The market is not only buying but like India, Russia needs FDI and loans and India is not ready to give either but is investing in weapon systems of the west. Most Russian commodities other then defence are natural resources and they can go anywhere in the world.

What?? of-course they can go anywhere...they are already going in Europe, no?? Also even on that side apart from China who can match our appetite in that frony as well?? b/w the question is about multi-billion defence kitty that New delhi is carrying...i mean is there anyone in the world who has that kind of appetite but us?? Mind it this not something to be proud of but this is the reality and it does give us some weightage...no second thoughts there...

We have Americans who have kept a check that no parts are tampered with. Wonder if India would allow Russians to do so?

That is American policy...Russian don't have such policy and they have defence relations with us for decades...there has been no complain about any tampering whatsoever and this is not even a concern...To be honest i am not sure how you can ignore the very fact that all our big ticket strategic items have Russia written all over it(even today)...and we have relations with US for more than a decade now...How can that be even possible had russian concerns about us sharing their secrets??

The biggest issue for Russia is that it will lose its biggest ally. India was always pro Russia but at this time it will have to choose sides. Choosing sides is always a diplomatic no no and the US will expect India on its side. The two sides mostly are pro Russian and pro American or neutral. India remained neutral or pro Russian before, now it will have to reorient itself.

That is your biggest problem...take no offence please however you guys always talk in terms of zero sum game...Look even you are saying that China and India are adversaries and India was pro Russia yet it didn't stop Russia from sharing their latest tech with China...right?? However Indian balancing relations b/w Russia and America is something that cannot be managed...i mean look at our diplomatic history...it has many examples where we have managed relations with both the foes!!

Actually, the only thing China cares about it reducing Russian-Indian relationships. US and China are adversaries already and so are India and China.... That you accept..now add US India together and it does not change the formula much for China because both nations were already a threat and China has accepted a two front war from some time. Do look at Chinese anaylsis and you will find this. But now the whole added Indo US friendship can be used to the advantage of distancing Russia and India which will really help China out..

Just forget USA for a sec...If a war breaks out between India and China, russia is going to be a neutral country...I am not sure what is your stand on this however we are pretty clear about it...There is no rivalry between Russian and China anymore and there is nothing that Russian gains by chosing one over the other...period...so India moving firmly into US hands is not a good thing for China...I will again bring Pakistan here...you are our Arch rivals...and china is potential...does that mean your military alliance is not a headache for us?? I mean how on this earth a strong neighbour pitching directly against you and backed by a super power of this world is no headache??

i was discussing India and Japan while you bring Pakistan in again. What type of answer is that -.-

Already explained...concentrate on the logic please...

 

[Gufi]

I think you need to do the same....check your very first post that i quoted...it is you who brought Pakistan in it by saying "There could be nothing better for us then this news"....no?? Anyways lets keep pakistan out of the equation as i believe in this context they have little role to play(Atleast at this stage)

An India with less cooperation with Russia is good news for Pakistan. i never said that Pakistan is the one who will replace India in Russian eyes. India has been one of the strongest allies of Russia but things are going south for some time now. Is not the writing clear when Indian pilots are not allowed to fly the new jet that is being made for both countries. Or Pakistan getting helicopters which are armed, something that never would have seemed possible 10 years ago.

What?? of-course they can go anywhere...they are already going in Europe, no?? Also even on that side apart from China who can match our appetite in that frony as well?? b/w the question is about multi-billion defence kitty that New delhi is carrying...i mean is there anyone in the world who has that kind of appetite but us?? Mind it this not something to be proud of but this is the reality and it does give us some weightage...no second thoughts there...

Reorienting it to move towards the western market and what can be produced at home shall be. The major buys are done for some time now and the deals Russia wanted, the fighters, artillery etc did not go their way. This splurge has not really went to Russia. Even when deals with Russia were done TOT and local assembly was asked for. The new fighter programs, the partnership with Western countries while Russia is in economic crisis is not something Russia will forget.

That is American policy...Russian don't have such policy and they have defence relations with us for decades...there has been no complain about any tampering whatsoever and this is not even a concern...To be honest i am not sure how you can ignore the very fact that all our big ticket strategic items have Russia written all over it(even today)...and we have relations with US for more than a decade now...How can that be even possible had russian concerns about us sharing their secrets??

because until recently, the very mention of Americans in Indians bases was considered a strict no no. That would have seemed obvious.

That is your biggest problem...take no offence please however you guys always talk in terms of zero sum game...Look even you are saying that China and India are adversaries and India was pro Russia yet it didn't stop Russia from sharing their latest tech with China...right?? However Indian balancing relations b/w Russia and America is something that cannot be managed...i mean look at our diplomatic history...it has many examples where we have managed relations with both the foes!!

because both were at the same distance, balancing would be different. Well time will tell, but it is a clear thing that India and Russia are distancing themselves as India moves closer to the US.
Russia tried to stall as long as they could before they had to part with the Su 35, also the S 400 would have been the same issue. They needed cash which is why they went to China, they offered everything at first to India which refused it.
America is the most demanding ally there is, time will prove that. They have no sense of in the middle, and many nations have learnt that. I am not talking in terms of zero sum game but history will tell you what I have said.

Already explained...concentrate on the logic please...

actually not explained at all, there was no logic to what you said. You have supposed that you will balance relationship equally with no issues to either side, which history tells us is impossible. Which nation has aligned with both nations Closely and been successful and now list how many have had to align themselves to one country. Talk about the last ten years and tell me how many have pulled it off.

 

[Indika]

An India with less cooperation with Russia is good news for Pakistan. i never said that Pakistan is the one who will replace India in Russian eyes. India has been one of the strongest allies of Russia but things are going south for some time now. Is not the writing clear when Indian pilots are not allowed to fly the new jet that is being made for both countries. Or Pakistan getting helicopters which are armed, something that never would have seemed possible 10 years ago.

Reorienting it to move towards the western market and what can be produced at home shall be. The major buys are done for some time now and the deals Russia wanted, the fighters, artillery etc did not go their way. This splurge has not really went to Russia. Even when deals with Russia were done TOT and local assembly was asked for. The new fighter programs, the partnership with Western countries while Russia is in economic crisis is not something Russia will forget.

because until recently, the very mention of Americans in Indians bases was considered a strict no no. That would have seemed obvious.

because both were at the same distance, balancing would be different. Well time will tell, but it is a clear thing that India and Russia are distancing themselves as India moves closer to the US.
Russia tried to stall as long as they could before they had to part with the Su 35, also the S 400 would have been the same issue. They needed cash which is why they went to China, they offered everything at first to India which refused it.
America is the most demanding ally there is, time will prove that. They have no sense of in the middle, and many nations have learnt that. I am not talking in terms of zero sum game but history will tell you what I have said.

actually not explained at all, there was no logic to what you said. You have supposed that you will balance relationship equally with no issues to either side, which history tells us is impossible. Which nation has aligned with both nations Closely and been successful and now list how many have had to align themselves to one country. Talk about the last ten years and tell me how many have pulled it off.

Irrespective of whatever the argument you give there is one hidden thing that is being overlooked. After US , China is the biggest enemy to Russia. For that matter of fact china-russia bonhomie is only due to the fact US is against russia.

US is farther away from russia territorial distance wise (disregarding the bering strait) as such US poses no danger to russia territorial integrity. But it is not the case with china, a powerfull china is not in the interests of russia. Once US stops going after russia then china vs russia for influence in asia is a reality.

Infact china & russia are like Iran & pakistan on the top it might look good but there is lot of tension underneath. Inspite of hiccups russia & india will have long term relations due to their geo-strategic locations. Neither will russia help china/pakistan against india nor will India help US against russia. Dont confuse economic relations with strategic ones.

 

[deckingraj]

First of all please accept my apologies for late response..Some work kept me busy...

An India with less cooperation with Russia is good news for Pakistan. i never said that Pakistan is the one who will replace India in Russian eyes. India has been one of the strongest allies of Russia but things are going south for some time now. Is not the writing clear when Indian pilots are not allowed to fly the new jet that is being made for both countries. Or Pakistan getting helicopters which are armed, something that never would have seemed possible 10 years ago.

Nothing to disagree here...Only one point - russia not allowing Indian pilots to fly latest planes has nothing to do with their suspicion about leaking some secrets...I hope that's what not you implying...I mean for god sake we are in a JV with them...yes we want to be more involved and i am sure things will be sorted out...

Reorienting it to move towards the western market and what can be produced at home shall be. The major buys are done for some time now and the deals Russia wanted, the fighters, artillery etc did not go their way. This splurge has not really went to Russia. Even when deals with Russia were done TOT and local assembly was asked for. The new fighter programs, the partnership with Western countries while Russia is in economic crisis is not something Russia will forget.

What?? Either i am not explaining my point to you properly or you are deliberately ignoring me..Look if you believe i mean nothing will/has change then obviously that's not what i am implying...however is this something that can't be managed then that is where we differ...As i explained last time...Russia shares their latest and greatest with China..who is a potential adversary even though Russia was our major defense supplier...Now if that can be worked out not sure why this new arrangement can't be...They may have not won some deals but many also went their way...

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/russia-is-main-defence-partner-again/article8034696.ece

I will repeat, this arrangement can and be worked out...and in fact both sides are working on it...

because until recently, the very mention of Americans in Indians bases was considered a strict no no. That would have seemed obvious.

With due respect you are being naive about it...It seems you are implying that for Indian to share Russian secrets American's have to first access our bases....In case you are saying that India is in now firm hands to US because they have been given access to our bases than i can only say ...time will tell...but being an Indian and knowing very well how much important our sovereignty is to us...i can only say it is a distant dream..unless Modi has made up his mind to never run the office again...

because both were at the same distance, balancing would be different. Well time will tell, but it is a clear thing that India and Russia are distancing themselves as India moves closer to the US.Russia tried to stall as long as they could before they had to part with the Su 35, also the S 400 would have been the same issue. They needed cash which is why they went to China, they offered everything at first to India which refused it.

Agreed time will tell...Obviously new equilibrium needs to be arranged..it is a work in progress...no doubt about it...

America is the most demanding ally there is, time will prove that. They have no sense of in the middle, and many nations have learnt that. I am not talking in terms of zero sum game but history will tell you what I have said.

Fair enough...however why are you putting India in the same bucket as all other nations...Indian US relations didn't move at the speed that everyone was expecting after the civilian nuclear deal...why?? Once you honestly look at that you will see that atleast we acknowledge the fact and very sensitive about it..Moreover Indian democracy is going to take care of it...rest only time will tell....

actually not explained at all, there was no logic to what you said. You have supposed that you will balance relationship equally with no issues to either side, which history tells us is impossible. Which nation has aligned with both nations Closely and been successful and now list how many have had to align themselves to one country. Talk about the last ten years and tell me how many have pulled it off.

Well that is your perspective..and may be your definition of relations is flawed...If you are saying that we can be an all weather friend to both then no...noway!!...and to be honest there is no such thing...However from where i look we have very good to decent relations with Israel,Iran and Arabs at the same time...In fact we have never enjoyed this kind of relations with Arabs that we enjoy now...I mean why talk about India...aren't you doing the same?? Aren't you trying to balance your relations with Arabs and Iran?? The only difference is that we realized this way back in 91 when we opened our gates and hearts to Israel...Now let me tell you something...Once your civilian govt. firms its boots on power and democracy becomes a given i am sure you guys will move towards normalizing your relations with Israel as well...

Also please keep in mind there is no relation which doesn't have problems...this is what managing relations is all about...Another good example is France...they have always kept their foreign policy independent and free from too much American influence...no??