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Urdu is not our language: Mahmood Khan Achakzai in PDM's Karachi gathering.

I believe what's done is done, there is little point in discussing these matters now.

We needed a foreign lingua franca so that no provincial language takes precedence over the other. Farsi and Urdu were the two main candidates with Urdu being green-lighted to better accommodate the Muhajirs.

My main issue with Urdu is that it has set us on a cultural trajectory towards India, a country of 1.3 billion, whose cultural output we will never be able to match. Farsi would have been an interesting choice, not only was it just as, if not more popular than Urdu prior to the 1930's but it also would have put us on an equal footing in terms of cultural output comparison within the Farsi speaking world.

However, Urdu has now solidified itself as the Quomi Zuban and there is little that can be done to change that

Majority of Afghanistan is farsi speaking, where it got them? Iran itself is failed state despite oil/gas wealth.

Time to think about from where we will get GDP growth going because both India and Bangladesh have left us behind in last 10 years. We are turning in to another Afghanistan.
 
Is that why more Indians speak it then Pakistani's? It is as "Islamic" as a Divali festival.

Urdu is not synonymous with Islam.
*Smart forward looking idea would have been to use Farsi as the frame and then nativise it by mixing Punjabi, Pashto etc and giving it a new name like "Pakvan". This is what Indonesians did. Pressure punped a new language.

Nah. Using farsi didnt make sense. Urdu actually had its speakers whether second language or third language but Persian was a language that never gained tract with the people of the region due to it being high class. Urdu was formed as a union of various languages so that the military campaigns cannot be bottlenecked with language barriers where effective communication can change the very landscape of the battle ground. Persian was entirely the court and the administrative language. It was not the instrument of communication between the local populace. Its status as ?Lingua Franca could also be brought to question that it was the Lingua Franca of the elite and not of the people, which was common for its time however the negative impact of this was that Persian never became the communicative language of the people. It would survive as long as the administration of the multi-ethnic empire survived, but the moment it would decline, so would persian and that is exactly what happened. The moment the
Mughals lost power, the freefall of the Persian Language began and by 1947, it had little to know speakers. To use that as the lingua franca would have been an absolute imposition. Urdu is different in the sense that it was brought forth as a communication device between multi-ethnic soldiery and thus was able to become more rooted amongst the populace than persian and while persian heavily influenced the languages of the empires it was administered in, Urdu was formed from the very languages that were found in the region or were being brought forth. It is not an Indian construct. For example, When guys like saithan, T-12345, Webslave, Blackeyes and all the rest speak in turkic, i am able to understand a few words and that is because Urdu is formed from Turkic as well.

Farsi, by 1947, was going to die. No point trying to spend anytime to save Farsi. Urdu was actually spoken at some quarters as a second or third language in what would go on to become Pakistan. The Punjab of that time had people that spoke it as a second and third language as well and other areas that would have similar cases. Thus Picking Urdu made sense as it was a language understood and spoken already, far more than farsi even in east Pakistan. This was a link and the influence it had from local languages was something that Farsi never had. Urdu was formed from Pashto, Sindhi, Punjabi. If people speak their native language infront of you, you can understand at some low level due to the influence those languages had on urdu.

Coming to creating a new language from Farsi. So another form of Urdu? Why expend the effort to reach the same conclusion and that would have been loved by the populace. Create a new language for a new country and impose it on the people. Not only East Pakistan, West Pakistan would have revolted as well if something like this was done. The Reason people accepted Urdu was due to its links to the region that would become Pakistan. Make a 'Pakvan' and impose it and the country wouldnt have lasted the third day. I have said much about Muslim League and its decisions in Pakistan but language pick was something that i cant criticize. That was a right call.

As for language preservation. I declare openly that we have sinned when it comes to local languages and this should be corrected immediately however Lingua Franca will always be needed due to our diversity. We need that bridge. I am surprised. I thought you would support this language since this is exactly like Pakistan. Urdu is the union of various languages spoken in the neighborhood from Central Asia to the ends of Beas. Pakistan is a union of states from the mountains connecting to Central Asia to the bank of beas. Urdu was basically, before Aurangzeb was called many names three extremely striking, Lahori, Dehalvi and Lashkari. If it was called Lahori then you can imagine the roots it had in modern day Pakistan. Anyhow Lingua Franca was needed and it become Lingua Franca and one that was actually understood by people all over pakistan. Let me give a quote of a local metaphor 'Farsi Zuban Bol raha hai' is a term used back 3-4 generations and to this day to highlight that, i dont understand what you are saying.

Lastly as for Mehmood Achakzai. You ask him to speak Farsi and he will lose his mind. He is a nationalist and he will speak in the tone of Nationalists.

As for India and Languages. I admire what their legal laws did however the story did not start as rosy as it is often painted.

India did the exact same thing as their Constitution was enforced on 26th January 1950 where its Article 343 held that the official language of India shall be Hindi in the Devanagari script and this was before Pakistan even had a constitution. The system was working in line with the the British had left and the Constitutional framework for Pakistan at that time was the Government of India Act 1935 and the Independence Act 1947. So in 1950 a diverse nation like India also needed a linguistic bridge and Hindi seemed the most apt since it was spoken by more people and English was used as a central language, was to be phased out but Hindi alone was resisted and the parliament was forced to extend the date because Hindi faced the same limitation that Urdu faced that was world was being globalized and English was a major part of that world. In 1963 India did pass the Languages official Act which held that a committee shall be passed which shall translate the english texts (Proceedings of the parliament at that time were in English) into Hindi and section 6 and 7 held that any state can use local languages for state parliament and State High Court.


Section 6 Authorised Hindi translation of State Acts in certain cases.

Where the Legislature of a State has prescribed any language other than Hindi for use in Acts passed by the Legislature of the State or in Ordinances promulgated by the Governor of the State, a translation of the same in Hindi, in addition to a translation thereof in the English language as required by clause (3) of article 348 of the Constitution, may be published on or after the appointed day under the authority of the Governor of the State in the Official Gazette of that State and in such a case, the translation in Hindi of any such Act or Ordinance shall be deemed to be the authoritative text thereof in the Hindi language.

Section 7. Optional use of Hindi or other official language in judgments etc., of High Courts. .

As from the appointed day or any day thereafter, the Governor of a State may, with the previous consent of the President, authorise the use of Hindi or the official language of the State, in addition to the English language, for the purposes of any judgment, decree or order passed or made by the High Court for that State and where any judgment, decree or order is passed or made in any such language (other than the English language), it shall be accompanied by a translation of the same in the English language issued under the authority of the High Court.

This act was forced to be passed due to the massive linguistic diversity in India most notable of it being in the Dravidian languages and the tribal languages in the East with the Indo-Aryan languages in populous northern India.

Infact India is even a greater mess since they now need two Lingua Francas as many states were open to Hindi and preferred English as the Lingua Franca and many protested like hell when this act was passed and there was an amendment in 1967 where it was held that English could only be removed when a resolution was passed by every state that had not adopted the language. It is still a pretty big battle for example states which had Hindi as their official; language are allowed to use Hindi as Court language in
High Court but not others save for Tamil Nadu and i think that is largely for Tamil people and all that happened with Tamil independence. Its actually complicated in its usage however we should have adopted something similar and by the 60s, we had a dictator that could do that. I am sure guys like @Joe Shearer have more info on this than i do.


Lastly indus i know you want there to be a wall of fire between anything Indian and Pakistan but i am not sold on Urdu. :P
 
Islam has its roots from Arab so what next ? R u going islam does not belong to Pakistan.

Shame on u.
At least you accepted urdu having roots in UP.
There is difference between language and religion. And i never said one cannot use urdu even if it has roots elesewhere.
But if natives have more affinity towards their native language than other language, then that should be his/her choice.
Eitherway this person is free to use urdu/english/hindi/french.
 
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He is right, urdu have its root in uttar pradesh.
keep it in your back pocket non of us appreciate indian to comment on our national language. for you indian its from UP but for us this language ruled.
 
If Urdu is the Language of Muslims of Subcontinent then why did the Single Largest Muslim group in the region ( Bengalis ) rejected it ?
Honest question! It's simple and all in history ... Bengalis had a parallel path to Islam... their first introduction to Islam was through Muslim traders in the very first century of Hijrah... subsequently, they formed Sultanate of Bengal in parallel again to Delhi Sultanate until Mugals took over and split again once the British came... So, they were not part of the discourse as such.
 
Muslims of North India (specifically the Delhi region), not South Asia.
No Sir gg, South Asia, might I suggest you do little more research.

Urdu was always the language of Muslims all over South Asia, there is so much history regarding Urdu's link to Muslims of South Asia that I would be doing an injustice to try and explain it in couple of sentences here. It is established fact like water is made of oxygen and hydrogen.

I would kindly suggest you do a little research. I will say this much, Urdu has it's origin in the Delhi region but origin does not mean it is limited and is bound for eternity for that region.

Islam has its origin in Mecca, but it is not limited to Mecca, origin is not same as ownership or association. You, we, rest of the Muslim world claim ownership of Islam because it is our religion.
Likewise, Urdu has it's origin in Delhi, but it has always been associated with the Muslims of South Asia as a whole and the majority, not all, but the majority always spoke it, especially if they did any schooling.

Please do not delete your history with a single sentence, stay blessed.
T
If Urdu is the Language of Muslims of Subcontinent then why did the Single Largest Muslim group in the region ( Bengalis ) rejected it ?
They did not reject Urdu, please do not simplify a complicated issue.

Most educated Bengalis could speak Bengali and Urdu, even now in Bangladesh, many religious schools teach Urdu because most of the literature on Islam is in Urdu, precisely because it's wide association with the Muslims of South Asia.
 
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Urdu is not synonymous with Islam.


Nah. Using farsi didnt make sense. Urdu actually had its speakers whether second language or third language but Persian was a language that never gained tract with the people of the region due to it being high class. Urdu was formed as a union of various languages so that the military campaigns cannot be bottlenecked with language barriers where effective communication can change the very landscape of the battle ground. Persian was entirely the court and the administrative language. It was not the instrument of communication between the local populace. Its status as ?Lingua Franca could also be brought to question that it was the Lingua Franca of the elite and not of the people, which was common for its time however the negative impact of this was that Persian never became the communicative language of the people. It would survive as long as the administration of the multi-ethnic empire survived, but the moment it would decline, so would persian and that is exactly what happened. The moment the
Mughals lost power, the freefall of the Persian Language began and by 1947, it had little to know speakers. To use that as the lingua franca would have been an absolute imposition. Urdu is different in the sense that it was brought forth as a communication device between multi-ethnic soldiery and thus was able to become more rooted amongst the populace than persian and while persian heavily influenced the languages of the empires it was administered in, Urdu was formed from the very languages that were found in the region or were being brought forth. It is not an Indian construct. For example, When guys like saithan, T-12345, Webslave, Blackeyes and all the rest speak in turkic, i am able to understand a few words and that is because Urdu is formed from Turkic as well.

Farsi, by 1947, was going to die. No point trying to spend anytime to save Farsi. Urdu was actually spoken at some quarters as a second or third language in what would go on to become Pakistan. The Punjab of that time had people that spoke it as a second and third language as well and other areas that would have similar cases. Thus Picking Urdu made sense as it was a language understood and spoken already, far more than farsi even in east Pakistan. This was a link and the influence it had from local languages was something that Farsi never had. Urdu was formed from Pashto, Sindhi, Punjabi. If people speak their native language infront of you, you can understand at some low level due to the influence those languages had on urdu.

Coming to creating a new language from Farsi. So another form of Urdu? Why expend the effort to reach the same conclusion and that would have been loved by the populace. Create a new language for a new country and impose it on the people. Not only East Pakistan, West Pakistan would have revolted as well if something like this was done. The Reason people accepted Urdu was due to its links to the region that would become Pakistan. Make a 'Pakvan' and impose it and the country wouldnt have lasted the third day. I have said much about Muslim League and its decisions in Pakistan but language pick was something that i cant criticize. That was a right call.

As for language preservation. I declare openly that we have sinned when it comes to local languages and this should be corrected immediately however Lingua Franca will always be needed due to our diversity. We need that bridge. I am surprised. I thought you would support this language since this is exactly like Pakistan. Urdu is the union of various languages spoken in the neighborhood from Central Asia to the ends of Beas. Pakistan is a union of states from the mountains connecting to Central Asia to the bank of beas. Urdu was basically, before Aurangzeb was called many names three extremely striking, Lahori, Dehalvi and Lashkari. If it was called Lahori then you can imagine the roots it had in modern day Pakistan. Anyhow Lingua Franca was needed and it become Lingua Franca and one that was actually understood by people all over pakistan. Let me give a quote of a local metaphor 'Farsi Zuban Bol raha hai' is a term used back 3-4 generations and to this day to highlight that, i dont understand what you are saying.

Lastly as for Mehmood Achakzai. You ask him to speak Farsi and he will lose his mind. He is a nationalist and he will speak in the tone of Nationalists.

As for India and Languages. I admire what their legal laws did however the story did not start as rosy as it is often painted.

India did the exact same thing as their Constitution was enforced on 26th January 1950 where its Article 343 held that the official language of India shall be Hindi in the Devanagari script and this was before Pakistan even had a constitution. The system was working in line with the the British had left and the Constitutional framework for Pakistan at that time was the Government of India Act 1935 and the Independence Act 1947. So in 1950 a diverse nation like India also needed a linguistic bridge and Hindi seemed the most apt since it was spoken by more people and English was used as a central language, was to be phased out but Hindi alone was resisted and the parliament was forced to extend the date because Hindi faced the same limitation that Urdu faced that was world was being globalized and English was a major part of that world. In 1963 India did pass the Languages official Act which held that a committee shall be passed which shall translate the english texts (Proceedings of the parliament at that time were in English) into Hindi and section 6 and 7 held that any state can use local languages for state parliament and State High Court.


Section 6 Authorised Hindi translation of State Acts in certain cases.

Where the Legislature of a State has prescribed any language other than Hindi for use in Acts passed by the Legislature of the State or in Ordinances promulgated by the Governor of the State, a translation of the same in Hindi, in addition to a translation thereof in the English language as required by clause (3) of article 348 of the Constitution, may be published on or after the appointed day under the authority of the Governor of the State in the Official Gazette of that State and in such a case, the translation in Hindi of any such Act or Ordinance shall be deemed to be the authoritative text thereof in the Hindi language.

Section 7. Optional use of Hindi or other official language in judgments etc., of High Courts. .

As from the appointed day or any day thereafter, the Governor of a State may, with the previous consent of the President, authorise the use of Hindi or the official language of the State, in addition to the English language, for the purposes of any judgment, decree or order passed or made by the High Court for that State and where any judgment, decree or order is passed or made in any such language (other than the English language), it shall be accompanied by a translation of the same in the English language issued under the authority of the High Court.

This act was forced to be passed due to the massive linguistic diversity in India most notable of it being in the Dravidian languages and the tribal languages in the East with the Indo-Aryan languages in populous northern India.

Infact India is even a greater mess since they now need two Lingua Francas as many states were open to Hindi and preferred English as the Lingua Franca and many protested like hell when this act was passed and there was an amendment in 1967 where it was held that English could only be removed when a resolution was passed by every state that had not adopted the language. It is still a pretty big battle for example states which had Hindi as their official; language are allowed to use Hindi as Court language in
High Court but not others save for Tamil Nadu and i think that is largely for Tamil people and all that happened with Tamil independence. Its actually complicated in its usage however we should have adopted something similar and by the 60s, we had a dictator that could do that. I am sure guys like @Joe Shearer have more info on this than i do.


Lastly indus i know you want there to be a wall of fire between anything Indian and Pakistan but i am not sold on Urdu. :P
This has so many inaccuracies that I will be addressing tomorrow.
 
Urdu is a Hindustani language with it's origins in the UP region
He is right, urdu have its root in uttar pradesh.


Urdu's journey started the day Ghaznavid soldiers got in touch with locals of Punjab (1000 AD) where people spoke old punjabi..which had loan words and influence from haryanvi/khariboli , one of the few minor languages spoken in punjab back in the day.
After Ghaznavid Panjab or Lahore(capital of Ghaznavids) , it reached a milestone in Delhi once Qutb u din aibak moved his barracks there in 1193 AD .In between was a period of nearly 200 years when the earliest form of urdu had already developed in Punjab and was used by the soldiers to interact with local Punjabi people.. Upon reaching Delhi it further merged with local barj dialects of khari boli, where it became a proper literary language and produced the first established poets like Amir Khusrow.
However people only know about Amir Khusrow .There were poets in the Ghaznavid courts of Lahore, poets like Abul Faraj Runi and Masud Saad Salman who were tasked to persianize the local culture and were likely the first people to do urdu poetry.Masud Saad wrote three 'Diwans' ,one of them was in the earliest forms of Urdu.It was the cultural policy adopted in Lahore that gave way to a new language which was initially known as 'Dehlvi'.Which later on spread further east and south and picked a new name 'Hindvi' , merged with local dialects got new loanwords..and ultimately got the label Urdu...

So the point is origin of Urdu was never UP but the present day punjab..
 
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If Urdu is the Language of Muslims of Subcontinent then why did the Single Largest Muslim group in the region ( Bengalis ) rejected it ?
for the same reason imposition of hindi is opposed by South Indian [click here]
 
After Ghaznavid Panjab or Lahore(capital of Ghaznavids) , it reached a milestone in Delhi after Qutb u din aibak moved his barracks there in 1193 AD .In between was a period of nearly 200 years when the earliest form of urdu had already developed in Punjab and was used by the soldiers to interact with local Punjabi people.. Upon reaching Delhi it further merged with local barj dialects of khari boli, where it became a proper literary language and produced the first established poets like Amir Khusrow.
this is what people don't understand the journey of Urdu started from west to east means Lahore in Punjab then to Delhi [both were the capital cities in different turns of history] then to UP. Even in UP Urdu get traction under Muslim states of Awadh [Lucknow was only a city in Awadh state] and RohilKhand while in south State of Hyderabad promoted it.

Though earlier text and language of Urdu was a more persianized version and earlier text and literary work of Urdu is difficult for many to understand especially the Lahori or Dehalivi versions, but the contribution of Amir Khusroo is that it somewhat made a sort of reintroduction of Urdu to general masses in the form of Qawwali and Poetry with such use of language which was comparatively less Persian and more local due to more use of local vocabulary but even most of his work is difficult for many to understand from today's generation.

And for this Achakzai type ignorant people who claim Urdu is not our language then they must answer that

Are they going to disown Rohail Patans who were Originally originated from the region spread from Swat, Sawabi, Bajar till Pashtun Areas of Balochistan ..... ????

Are they going to Disown whole of KPK and as well as the Pashtun Areas of Balochistan where BTW Achakzai political base exists .... ???

Will any of them answer why more or less same number of Urdu speaking Ethnic Pashtuns exist in Karachi as compare to the numbers of Pashtuns in Balochistan ...... ???
 
The Hindi-Urdu controversy in Syed Ahmad's time was primarily a communal North Indian issue; not sure how you consider it as the "first pillar of Pakistan movement" when the people of modern-day Pakistan hardly understood or spoke the language at that time.

I dont consider any thing my self its written in Pakistan studies - heading was Urdu agitation in aligarh movement and some book suggest JINNAH was a product of SIR SYED.
Modern-day pakistani understood urdu perfectly and speak it as well.
 
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