UK to send Challenger 2 tanks to Ukraine, Rishi Sunak confirms

[Foinikas]

@waz

This thead is best merged with this one : https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/russ...opments-part-2.746450/page-1257#post-14172805

No no no don't merge it! Keep it seperate! It will be chaotic if you do,it's easier to chat about the tanks here.

 

[waz]

@waz

This thead is best merged with this one : https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/russ...opments-part-2.746450/page-1257#post-14172805

Not this time bro it's a very big development, aside what is already going on.

 

[Ali_Baba]

The only ones fanatically supporting the Challenger 2 are the British. Everyone else thinks it's a mediocre tank

Imagine,they have a small number of them already and they wanna give some to the Ukrainians. THAT good.

The UK has never been a land power (except for WW1/WW2). We are an island nation. Best to leave the "tanks" to the countries on mainland Europe that have direct land bridges with the Russians

Greece needs more thanks due to Russia and also Turkey(incase you have forgotten) than the UK ever has had the need for !!!

Ships(new QE, new Type 26, Dreadnought, Astute) and airpower(Tempest, F35, Typhoons) are we what need as an "island nation" etc..

The UK is exploring new tank types and as an "observer" status on the "Euro-tank" project to see what France and Germany decide to do down the road.

Eurotank : https://www.defensenews.com/global/...eurotank-partners-after-september-conference/

UK observer on Eurotank : https://www.realcleardefense.com/2021/01/12/british_military_looks_to_the_eurotank_656191.html

However, with the way that Germany has behaved and her political decision making process with Ukraine, alot of countries will be reconsidering if Germany is a reliable provider of military equipment - i truly and firmly believe that the UK has an opportunity to make a Challenger 3 tank and become the leading tank provider in Europe. The advantage that hte UK provides is better political clarity that matches the needs of those who need the tanks the most ie former Easter European will look to the UK as an ally who political and military views are more aligned with their interests, compared to Germany..

If you look at Europe - even Poland has turned its back on Germany as a tank provider and is now purchasing them from South Korea the K2 series.

 

[waz]

UK to send Challenger 2 tanks to Ukraine, Rishi Sunak confirms​

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• Russia-Ukraine war

IMAGE SOURCE, GETTY IMAGES
Image caption,
A Challenger 2 tank being used during a military parade in the UK
By Jonathan Beale, Defence Correspondent, and Jasmine Andersson
BBC News

The UK is to send Challenger 2 tanks to Ukraine to bolster the country's war effort, Prime Minister Rishi Sunak has said.
He spoke to Ukraine's President Volodymyr Zelensky in a call on Saturday, during which he confirmed he would send the equipment and additional artillery systems, No 10 said.
Downing Street said the move shows "the UK's ambition to intensify support."
The government is to issue 14 tanks to Ukraine.
Around 30 AS90s, which are large, self-propelled guns, are also expected to be delivered.
President Zelensky has thanked the UK, saying that the decision to send the tanks "will not only strengthen us on the battlefield, but also send the right signal to other partners".
He said the UK's support was "always strong" and was "now impenetrable".
No 10 said that during the call, Mr Sunak and Mr Zelensky also discussed also recent Ukrainian victories, as well as the "need to seize on this moment with an acceleration of global military and diplomatic support".
The announcement came as a series of missile attacks were launched across Ukraine on Saturday, including in Kyiv, Kharkiv and Odesa.
At least 14 people were killed in a strike on an apartment block in the eastern city of Dnipro.

• What military equipment is the world giving?

Mr Sunak said the Challengers, the British Army's main battle tank, would help Kyiv's forces "push Russian troops back".
Built in the late 1990s, the Challenger tank is more than 20 years old, but it will be the most modern tank at Ukraine's disposal. The tanks will provide Ukraine with better protection, and more accurate firepower.
The UK will begin training the Ukrainian Armed Forces to use the tanks and guns in the coming days.
While the donation alone is not considered a game-changer, it is hoped that the UK's move will inspire other countries to donate more modern equipment to help Ukraine.
Chair of the Defence Select Committee Tobias Ellwood said he welcomed the UK "getting serious about the hardware it supplies Ukraine", but that international assistance had been "far too slow".
He told BBC Breakfast: "That's exactly what Russia wants us to do - to remain hesitant.
"Unless we step forward and support Ukraine, Russia will not go away - and that will mean the bully has won."
He stressed that he wanted to see an arms factory in Eastern Poland which would allow Ukraine to procure its own weapons for the long term.

As it stands, Poland has plans to send 14 of its German-made Leopard tanks.
But the tanks, which are in greater supply and used by a number of European armies, need approval from Germany to be exported to Ukraine.
Ukraine also has hopes that the US will supply some of its Abrams tanks, which use the same ammunition as the Leopard.
Earlier this month, Germany and the US agreed to join France in sending armoured fighting vehicles to Ukraine - a move seen as a significant boost to its military's capability on the battlefield.
Shadow defence secretary John Healey said the government had "Labour's fullest backing" for the decision to send the Challengers.
He said: "Modern tanks are crucial to Ukraine's efforts to win its battle against Russian aggression."
Responding to the news of the Challenger tanks, Russian Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Maria Zakharova said: "As we've said previously, weapons supplies are legitimate targets for Russian strikes."

IMAGE SOURCE, MAXAR TECHNOLOGIES
Image caption,
Soledar has been devastated by Russia's bombardment, as shown by this satellite image from Tuesday
Earlier on Saturday, Russia's military announced it had captured the salt-mining town of Soledar after a long battle, calling it an "important" step for its offensive.
The victory would allow Russian troops to push on to the nearby city of Bakhmut, and cut off the Ukrainian forces there, a spokesman said.
But Ukrainian officials said the fight for Soledar was still going on and accused Russia of "information noise".

UK to send Challenger 2 tanks to Ukraine, Rishi Sunak confirms

Rishi Sunak confirms the tanks will be provided during a call with President Zelensky.

www.bbc.co.uk

I'm not really sure how these will used. Challengers best operate as part of an armoured brigade. I can see use as force multipliers, mobile artillery and maybe to kill Russian tanks provided Russian infantry is engaged.

It says no where how many are being sent. We certainly do not have many of them thanks to the Tory morons.

 

[Foinikas]

Greece needs more thanks due to Russia and also Turkey(incase you have forgotten) than the UK ever has had the need for !!!

Yeah but the amount of tanks in the UK has dropped significantly. You're not in WWII anymore,but less than 300 tanks? Come on guys! Wikipedia says 227 tanks right now :S

 

[waz]

Yeah but the amount of tanks in the UK has dropped significantly. You're not in WWII anymore,but less than 300 tanks? Come on guys! Wikipedia says 227 tanks right now :S

Yep it's around 200. I've seen ex-services saying the figure is lower at around 170.

 

[Beny Karachun]

The only ones fanatically supporting the Challenger 2 are the British. Everyone else thinks it's a mediocre tank

Imagine,they have a small number of them already and they wanna give some to the Ukrainians. THAT good.

They are very well armored, optics and fire control systems are good as well.
Rifled cannon and kinda slow are its downsides.

Significantly better than most Russian tanks, and I would say around the same as T-90M level.

 

[Ali_Baba]

Yeah but the amount of tanks in the UK has dropped significantly. You're not in WWII anymore,but less than 300 tanks? Come on guys! Wikipedia says 227 tanks right now :S

Agree - successive labour and tory goverments have degraded the UK armour capabilities. The MOD have made some SERIOUS bone headed decisions in not keeping the retired tanks in reserve as the Americans do - but to instead melt them down to "save on storage costs"....

Had we kept them in storage - we could have started to refurbish them when the war started and now be in a position to provide them to Ukraine. ( look at this decision by the MOD !!! -> https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2012/feb/16/british-tanks-sent-germany-storage )

Another example is the Rapier system - more than good enough for Ukraine - but decomissioned and melted down - whereas the Americans decomissioned their Hawk SAMs but kept them in storage and will now provide them to ukraine as they are good enough for what Russians are using.

I'm not really sure how these will used. Challengers best operate as part of an armoured brigade. I can see use as force multipliers, mobile artillery and maybe to kill Russian tanks provided Russian infantry is engaged.

It says no where how many are being sent. We certainly do not have many of them thanks to the Tory morons.

The Bradleys will form part of the combined forces/armoured bridgades and i think the UK has previosuly sent IFVs that are integrated to work with the challengers.

They are very well armored, optics and fire control systems are good as well.
Rifled cannon and kinda slow are its downsides.

Significantly better than most Russian tanks, and I would say around the same as T-90M level.

I would say they are alot lot better than the T-90M's - the armour and FCS are way way better.

 

[Foinikas]

Another example is the Rapier system - more than good enough for Ukraine - but decomissioned and melted down - whereas the Americans decomissioned their Hawk SAMs but kept them in storage and will now provide them to ukraine as they are good enough for what Russians are using.

I also noticed that Britain doesn't have long-range AA systems. And yet Johnshon insisted on challenging Russia.

Melting the tanks to save some money is ridiculous. Now they need tanks and they don't have them.

 

[Ali_Baba]

What the Ukraine war has proven is that there is a need for tanks - but they must operate in a matrix environment of capabilities that now include drones as a capability. The fact that Ukraine is screaming for them - should be an eye opener for all those who advocated the demise of the tank.

We of course are not seeing how NATO, with its massive airpower would conduct a modern war - the last time it was done properly was WWII. There are however, lessons to learn her for sure.

 

[aziqbal]

I'm not really sure how these will used. Challengers best operate as part of an armoured brigade. I can see use as force multipliers, mobile artillery and maybe to kill Russian tanks provided Russian infantry is engaged.

It says no where how many are being sent. We certainly do not have many of them thanks to the Tory morons.

I think the bigger picture here is that UK is the first nation to step forward to offer the MBT now others will follow

it now sets the standard for others to follow with the Leopard 2, and even US with Abrams

its 14 x Challenger 2 tanks, if other nations follow they could put together a few dozen tanks which would be enough armoured thrust to push Russians backs

 

[jhungary]

I'm not really sure how these will used. Challengers best operate as part of an armoured brigade. I can see use as force multipliers, mobile artillery and maybe to kill Russian tanks provided Russian infantry is engaged.

It says no where how many are being sent. We certainly do not have many of them thanks to the Tory morons.

As I said in an earlier post, There aren't really that much use for the 14 Challenger 2 that UK is sending to Ukraine. This is more of a thing to pressure US and Germany to send their own tanks to Ukraine. Both countries unlock the necessary number that Ukraine need.

Right now, Ukrainian Armour does not have any edge against the Russian, simply because they are the same, but Ukraine tends to use older Soviet Armour (like T-80s and T-72s) the only edge Ukraine have is that they are defending, which also negate the mobility of Tanks. Which mean in term of armour v armour, Russia and Ukraine are at best having a draw, if not Russia have the outright advantage.

That comes the Western Tank, 4-500 Western Tank (so 3 to 4 Division) would make a significant different to Ukrainian military, the Ukrainian can leave their T-72 on static defence role and move those new Leo 2 and Abrams as mobile armour brigade, which mean if and when Russia attack with tanks, Ukrainian old Soviet Tank can tkae the blunt as a static defence piece and Ukraine can also move Western Tank into flanking or envelopment to destory any Russian spearhead. Which now they can't do because they can only use their tank as either/or and not both, and as I mentioned before, their tanks don't have edge against the Russian, so they would be most likely slaughtered if they leave their defensive position.

What the Ukrainian need is for the US and German to unleash their Abrams and Leo 2. And it's more or less working right now, as even Australia is considering sending our M1A1 Tanks to Ukraine as they were being replaced by M1A2, watching a news segment here saying they may transfer another squadron of Abrams to Ukraine (we only have 59 Abrams) while waiting on the US to deliver the new M1A2 Abrams which starting this year and end in 2024.

 

[aziqbal]

Mistake..
When you see these knocked out it won't be good for British tank industry

read the news its a British tank not Chinese or Russian

As I said in an earlier post, There aren't really that much use for the 14 Challenger 2 that UK is sending to Ukraine. This is more of a thing to pressure US and Germany to send their own tanks to Ukraine. Both countries unlock the necessary number that Ukraine need.

Right now, Ukrainian Armour does not have any edge against the Russian, simply because they are the same, but Ukraine tends to use older Soviet Armour (like T-80s and T-72s) the only edge Ukraine have is that they are defending, which also negate the mobility of Tanks. Which mean in term of armour v armour, Russia and Ukraine are at best having a draw, if not Russia have the outright advantage.

That comes the Western Tank, 4-500 Western Tank (so 3 to 4 Division) would make a significant different to Ukrainian military, the Ukrainian can leave their T-72 on static defence role and move those new Leo 2 and Abrams as mobile armour brigade, which mean if and when Russia attack with tanks, Ukrainian old Soviet Tank can tkae the blunt as a static defence piece and Ukraine can also move Western Tank into flanking or envelopment to destory any Russian spearhead. Which now they can't do because they can only use their tank as either/or and not both, and as I mentioned before, their tanks don't have edge against the Russian, so they would be most likely slaughtered if they leave their defensive position.

What the Ukrainian need is for the US and German to unleash their Abrams and Leo 2. And it's more or less working right now, as even Australia is considering sending our M1A1 Tanks to Ukraine as they were being replaced by M1A2, watching a news segment here saying they may transfer another squadron of Abrams to Ukraine (we only have 59 Abrams) while waiting on the US to deliver the new M1A2 Abrams which starting this year and end in 2024.

its a great injustice not to send the Leopard 2

over 1,300 in storage and even Canadians have them

I mean seriously what does Canada need tanks for, send them to Ukraine where they are needed

Leopard 2 was specially built to face Russian armour, so its entire existence is in vain if its not sent into Ukraine

I hope they do it

https://twitter.com/x/status/1611134036935860225

 

[aziqbal]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1611777572982898688

 

[reflecthofgeismar]

This is never about whether this 14 Challenger 2 made any different. This is done so the world will pile on pressure on both Germany and US to send Leo 2 and Abrams in good numbers.

It wouldn't be enough for the Ukrainian to have the entire stock the British Army is running. They need around 500 modern tanks to turn the ties, to roll over the Russian. And the only country that can make up that number is US and Germany, there are 2000 Leo 2 tanks in Europe and none of them can transfer to Ukraine unless German OK it. And there are more than 1500 Abrams in storage.

500 Western tanks is more than enough to take down the ~1500 ish Russian tanks they are using in Ukraine.

650 M1A1 SA, 1,605 M1A2 SEPv2 and 390 M1A2 SEPv3 are in active US service.
3,450 M1A1/A2 are in storage (mostly in good condition).