UK keen to offer Eurofighter to India

[Superboy]

Hopefully MRCA doesn't get restarted. It's already taken 8 years thus far.

 

[sancho]

Length 1 meter more

Not according official sources:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-4ze9VBG-8VI/URdYdha5sUI/AAAAAAAATOQ/gHVJHw1kv2o/s1600/DSC08325-770465.JPG

Wouldn't more MKIs, which are a Multi-Role Platform with predominantly Air-Dominance orientations, as I understand, be a better & a cheaper choice ?

PAK-FAs, MKIs & Tejas would make a mighty fine Airforce - Don't you think ?

P.S I'm discounting the Technology Transfer thing in this question !

If we only talk about the best operational mix for IAF, then it should have been LCA & Mirage 2000-5 at the low end, MKI and FGFA at the high end. Single engine, cost-effective low end fighters that would build the main numbers and game changers on top of them. These and the later addition of drones would have given IAF the ideal mix to defend the country!

Wrt more MKIs, once the upgraded versions won't be that cheap either, while the operational costs should be higher. What's more important though is, that more MKIs and the high numbers of FGFAs in future, would make IAF more dependent on Russia again and that is something they want to avoid. If you can't provide your forces with own alternative arms, to remain independent, you have to spread the procurements and that's what MoD is doing for the last years. Russia is still the main player in Indian defence, but the dependancy is reducing and that makes MMRCAs from a western source important as well.

When you then also add the industrial importance at the end, which is a major key in the competition, it is clear why MMRCAs must be procured and the one that offers the most advantages in all fields (operational, industrial, costs...) should be procured.

MKI -30 Tons class. (Heavy for Air superiority )

Rafale-20 Ton class.(Medium for ground attack and SEAD operations )

LCA-10 Ton class.(Light point defence for advancing coloums )

Their roles are different

The roles of Rafale and MKI won't be that different, be it in air superioirty, deep strike or even SEAD, they only will do these roles differently and that gives IAF alternatives in tactics and weapons.
However, the fleet mix that Armstrong mentioned, would had included a way higher number of LCAs, that also would had be aimed to more capability (into the medium class), which now is not important. For IAF it now will be enough if it offers point defence and CAS capabilities, while it could do SEAD, maritime attack or even deep strikes with the right weapons and capabilities too.

 

[Abingdonboy]

ok but as i read in this forum that rafale deal can harm Indian economy

Umm......no.....just NO. No defence deal is going to have any noticeable on the Indian ECONOMY.

 

[kurup]

How does Typhoon compare to JF-17?

Different weight class ..... Typhoon is far superior .

 

[sancho]

Different weight class ..... Typhoon is far superior .

Weight doesn't make any fighter superior, only capability does.

 

[kurup]

Weight doesn't make any fighter superior, only capability does.

I was not implying that ..... I should have added an and instead of dots between the lines ....

 

[surya kiran]

You are actually asking for 2 different things. Once to make a bigger twin engined fighter out of LCA, comparable to Rafale and that won't happent.
The other thing is, if LCA can be more comparable to the single engine Gripen NG and that will happen with the MK2 upgrade. Both will get more internal fuel, a new engine, upgraded avionics and the MK2 most likely gets IRST + AESA radar too. All this obviously adds weight and we already know that the length will be extended for around 0.5m. The main difference however will be the lack of additional hardoints (and it needs to be seen how much additonal fuel can be added to make it comparable in performance to the NG) and that will limit LCA to light class roles only and won't make it comparable to EF or Rafale.

It would make more sense to evolve the LCA Mk2 to LCA Mk3 and then try to build a Silent Tejas like the Silent Eagle. The AMCA is too ambitious for now. Maybe after 10 years of experience with the FGFA, yes...but not yet.

 

[sancho]

It would make more sense to evolve the LCA Mk2 to LCA Mk3 and then try to build a Silent Tejas like the Silent Eagle. The AMCA is too ambitious for now. Maybe after 10 years of experience with the FGFA, yes...but not yet.

MK3 would just be another upgrade standard, but many people confuse it with the development to a twin engined varient, which will never happen, because the changes would be far too big. The Silent Eagle also is a bar that is far too high for a fighter that was designed to be as small as possible and not possible for technical reasons (we discussed that in the LCA thread before). But yes, AMCA like DRDO wants to make it and without help is not realistic.

 

[sancho]

Will reply here, to keep the other thread on topic.

Good from an industry perspective but on the EFT vs Rafale itself the best machine won (for the IAF's needs). Dassualt have already said that India/Indian industry will be part of the Rafale's future road map (so that addresses point 3). Now number 2 would have been something else but indulging in speculation/hypotheticals and ifs and maybes isn't something I really like to do.

No it wasn't selected for IAF needs, they shortlisted the fighters that fulfills there needs and that included the EF too (although only with credible upgrades). The final selection included industrial advantages as well as the cost relation too and although the EF is inferior to Rafale on costs, if the EF consortium plays it right, they could have outbid the Rafale partners on the industrial level.
Also what do you think IAF will prefer? A licence produced French radar + engine, or a jointly developed AESA + help to fix, upgrade and integrate Kaveri? The latter of course, because that is what India needs and even if the EF would cost more and offer "currently" less capability, that would justify it.
Btw, the French have stated to include Indias future requirements into future upgrades, but as the F3R shows, they have no interest in joint developments with India on common requirements! That's exactly the difference the EF partners must show now, that the "partnership on EF" they they had proposed is not just a cheap way to get fundings, but to really include India and Indian industry into the R&D.

I said it recently on IDF too, if you think about the current delays and the timeframe when the EF/Rafale might be produced in India, they actually would come at the same time as LCA MK2 and especially the EF would then offer the chance for a lot off common systems!

LCA MK2 / EF 2020

Radar - jointly developed AESA (EF consortium + DRDO)
Cockpit - upgraded MFDs (HAL)
EWS - RWR and UV MAWS (DARE and BEL)
IRST - PIRATE
LDP - Litening G4
For engines we sadly decided for the GE 414, but if we get R&R / MTU assistance on Kaveri, any LCA order beyond the first 80 could be used with a common engine to EF inlcuding TVC.

So basically all key areas would have commonality + the Indian content that could be included and that this would not only benefit LCA MK2, but also a possible AMCA development, should be clear too.

 

[Yeti]

Rafale is not subject to ITAR like the Eurofighter and France has never imposed sanctions on India, yes the price has shot through the roof but a part of that is due to the rate of the rupee and the general state of the economy is not great to say the least. It also is the best plane as selected by the IAF which went through various hot and cold trials plus we already operate the Mirage which did really well in the Kargil war that is why Rafale will be the selection we will make in the end but not until after the elections.

 

[sancho]

It also is the best plane

Currently and according to the timeframe of the competition, yes. However, the timeframe has slipped now and a decision after the elections can make it slip even further, depnding on who comes to power. Then you have to consider it around 2018, which gives the EF plenty of time to improve and to change the equation.

- first flight tests with cruise missiles done
- first flight with Captor E prototype might happen this year
- Saudis about to fund Damocles, AASM, Brimstone and Storm Shadow integration

The key to make the EF a capable multi role fighter however will be the CFTs, as soon as they are added, the strike capability at long distances can be fully implemented. That and the SPEAR missile that is under development, can change the A2G advantage away from the Rafale:

 

[faithfulguy]

Sharing of technology is, getting an agreement with one nation already takes ages (France), then how much will it take to get an agreement with several firms of 4 nations (I hope 4 is right ) in case of the EFT?

Why not just buy the plane off the shelf instead of all these TOT crap? India should not bother with TOT and use the money instead to build up its domestic R&D capability. As for the arm forces, buy the hardware without getting into the hassle of TOT so it can build the plane more quickly.

 

[sancho]

Why not just buy the plane off the shelf instead of all these TOT crap?

Because money doesn't give you the know how to develop modern fighter engines or radars, see China. That's where critical ToT, JVs and co-developments are much more useful and where Rafale and EF offered the best proposals.

 

[slapshot]

why not more MKI's ? or maybe upgraded one ? i think its call MKK right ?

This is what will happen in the end

 

[NKVD]

This is what will happen in the end

In your dreams