UK keen to offer Eurofighter to India

[slapshot]

In your dreams

Not really! sit and watch, India will go back to Russians as usual

 

[NKVD]

Not really! sit and watch, India will go back to Russians as usual

Hahaha money is not problem to us like you mate p:p

 

[slapshot]

Hahaha money is not problem to us like you mate p:p

You people keep saying same thing while your GOVT is complaining about the money involved in MMRCA deal. Is there any weapon in the world that your country is not buying? But how many deals went through really? Its been a decade and still MMRCA is not signed. I feel sorry for French They should have helped us with westernization of thunder and we could have earned them business in return. India is not a good buyer fore sure and MMRCA is an example.

 

[PoKeMon]

You people keep saying same thing while your GOVT is complaining about the money involved in MMRCA deal. Is there any weapon in the world that your country is not buying? But how many deals went through really? Its been a decade and still MMRCA is not signed. I feel sorry for French They should have helped us with westernization of thunder and we could have earned them business in return. India is not a good buyer fore sure and MMRCA is an example.

Rather than being idiotic here, why dont you tell your BS to Eurofigter(EADS). Your advice may save their time.

 

[45'22']

You people keep saying same thing while your GOVT is complaining about the money involved in MMRCA deal. Is there any weapon in the world that your country is not buying? But how many deals went through really? Its been a decade and still MMRCA is not signed. I feel sorry for French They should have helped us with westernization of thunder and we could have earned them business in return. India is not a good buyer fore sure and MMRCA is an example.

rafale will be signed......if Indian backs off then rafale will die
some negotiations will take place and ultimately it will be rafale

russians cant provide us a medium weight good a2g fighter currently

and superhornet will come with lots of sanctions

hence rafale........it will take some more time for sure due to general elections

 

[slapshot]

Rather than being idiotic here, why dont you tell your BS to Eurofigter(EADS). Your advice may save their time.

why should we care! let them learn the hard way

 

[PoKeMon]

why should we care! let them learn the hard way

Why should you care to waste your and our time with your post of no value and which is meant for no one to apply, not even for EADS?

Or you house the more brains than whole of european consortium and french rafale?

If we are questioning the price that doesn't means we dont have, but that means the quoted inflated price is not worth spending for a fighter of Rafale capability. You dont buy a candy worth Re 1 for Rs 10 just because you have Rs 100 in your pocket.

F35 will take time to mature and I don't think so IAF would want to wait for it. As of this point India doesn't seems to have any other choice then Rafael .

Its Rafale not Rafael. Learn this very much difference first.

 

[slapshot]

Why should you care to waste your and our time with your post of no value and which is meant for no one to apply, not even for EADS?

Or you house the more brains than whole of european consortium and french rafale?

If we are questioning the price that doesn't means we dont have, but that means the quoted inflated price is not worth spending for a fighter of Rafale capability. You dont buy a candy worth Re 1 for Rs 10 just because you have Rs 100 in your pocket.

Exactly! Thats what I said that chances of this deal going through are rare and India may fall back. Please note that Indian members are who always think they can buy anything just because they have money. Similarly no one gives you 2 candies for Rs 10 just because they may not be able to sell them to anyone else.

Its Rafale not Rafael. Learn this very much difference first.

thanks for the correction

 

[Superboy]

Its Rafale not Rafael. Learn this very much difference first.

Rafael

 

[sancho]

@Abingdonboy

I am currently pretty intrigued by the idea of what advantages the EF consortium / partners must offer to make them get the deal and the more I think about it, the more interesting it could be especially wrt the LCA MK2 upgrade.

As I said earlier, they must give us what we need and not what they want to give us! In MMRCA they basically proposed a partnership to outsource production and fund of uprgades they would develop. The only R&D that would had been diverted to India could had been the participation in the Sea Typhoon, which wasn't good for us. But what if they offer real advantages to India and Indian industry?

Two keys that they must offer are obviously joint development of AESA, or at least credible assistance in the devlopment of our own AESA program and the assistance in fixing and improving Kaveri engine. Both are highly important areas for Indias future and with credible asistance of companies like Rolls Royce, MTU, Selex, BAE and Airbus, these programs could get a real boost. The advantage here also would be, that we would not only have access to their techs, but that we could bind them to assist as as partners and not only as a customer that hires a company for consultation and assistance. In the latter case, ToT of critical parts and credible help will be very limited, because nobody wants to give away their technical secrets and in many cases the export parts or assistance to export customers is also far less.
If the offer then would include the integration of the Indian radar and engine into the licence produced EFs, that would be a big point in favour for them!

Then comes the LCA MK2 upgrade and when you look at what changes are expected you will find things like moderinised cockpit with new MFDs, enhancement of the EWS. Both fields where Indian aero industry has gained a good level, thanks to DARE, BEL, HAL and Samtel.
The interesting thing now is, that the EF will need roughly the same modernisations around 2018 as part of their MLUs and when you look at both cockpits, it's quiet obvious that you could modernise them with similar if not even the same parts:

EF

LCA Mk1

HAL and Samtel displays
Samtel Avionics & Defence Systems: modern avionics systems, opto-electronics, cockpit displays, rugged displays, multifunction displays

That would give our industry the chance to not only modernise IAFs MKIs and LCAs with enhanced avionics, but also to take over a part of the EF modernisation as part of our partnership in the consortium. If we take only the EF T2s to account, that would include roughly 300 fighters! A great deal of business for our industry apart from the Indian market and a chance to gain more credibility for the Indian industry as part of such a large consortium!

When you than add outsourced parts of the production, especially those with a dual use advantage for EF and LCA MK2 (IRST, HMS, retractable refuelling probe), we could get a lot of technical input to India to push the industry, but also the LCA MK2 program. One even could think about joint marketing of the LCA MK2 by the consortium, as a cost effective version below the EF, which would boost the export potential tremendously!!!

A lot of potential for us don't you think?

 

[Abingdonboy]

@Abingdonboy

I am currently pretty intrigued by the idea of what advantages the EF consortium / partners must offer to make them get the deal and the more I think about it, the more interesting it could be especially wrt the LCA MK2 upgrade.

As I said earlier, they must give us what we need and not what they want to give us! In MMRCA they basically proposed a partnership to outsource production and fund of uprgades they would develop. The only R&D that would had been diverted to India could had been the participation in the Sea Typhoon, which wasn't good for us. But what if they offer real advantages to India and Indian industry?

Two keys that they must offer are obviously joint development of AESA, or at least credible assistance in the devlopment of our own AESA program and the assistance in fixing and improving Kaveri engine. Both are highly important areas for Indias future and with credible asistance of companies like Rolls Royce, MTU, Selex, BAE and Airbus, these programs could get a real boost. The advantage here also would be, that we would not only have access to their techs, but that we could bind them to assist as as partners and not only as a customer that hires a company for consultation and assistance. In the latter case, ToT of critical parts and credible help will be very limited, because nobody wants to give away their technical secrets and in many cases the export parts or assistance to export customers is also far less.
If the offer then would include the integration of the Indian radar and engine into the licence produced EFs, that would be a big point in favour for them!

Then comes the LCA MK2 upgrade and when you look at what changes are expected you will find things like moderinised cockpit with new MFDs, enhancement of the EWS. Both fields where Indian aero industry has gained a good level, thanks to DARE, BEL, HAL and Samtel.
The interesting thing now is, that the EF will need roughly the same modernisations around 2018 as part of their MLUs and when you look at both cockpits, it's quiet obvious that you could modernise them with similar if not even the same parts:

EF

LCA Mk1

HAL and Samtel displays
Samtel Avionics & Defence Systems: modern avionics systems, opto-electronics, cockpit displays, rugged displays, multifunction displays

That would give our industry the chance to not only modernise IAFs MKIs and LCAs with enhanced avionics, but also to take over a part of the EF modernisation as part of our partnership in the consortium. If we take only the EF T2s to account, that would include roughly 300 fighters! A great deal of business for our industry apart from the Indian market and a chance to gain more credibility for the Indian industry as part of such a large consortium!

When you than add outsourced parts of the production, especially those with a dual use advantage for EF and LCA MK2 (IRST, HMS, retractable refuelling probe), we could get a lot of technical input to India to push the industry, but also the LCA MK2 program. One even could think about joint marketing of the LCA MK2 by the consortium, as a cost effective version below the EF, which would boost the export potential tremendously!!!

A lot of potential for us don't you think?

A very interesting set of ideas indeed. Obviously this is a best case scenario and in that it seems like an ideal offering from a purely industrial perspective- I still think that as far as the IAF is concerned the Rafale is the bird that fits them better than the EFT but you are looking beyond that-big picture. And certainly this industrial package would be a HUGE boost to many ongoing and future projects (UCAVs, RTA etc) and could even pave the way for even closer participation with EFT consortium nations/companies on other projects India may look to undertake i.e. we could see JVs on helos and the like.


Now what would have been interesting would have been the decision to procure the EJ2000 for LCA MK.2, the second the decision was made to go for GE I pretty much knew that ADA weren't looking for an intensive partnership with the Europeans which would have been excellent for the sensors (particularly radar) and the LCA's roadmap. It's a true shame, now the ADA is trying to go it alone and is sourcing bits and pieces from all over the place (France, UK, US, Israel etc) when really they had the perfect solution in the EFT consortium with a one-stop shop of all the LCA could ever need. With the Rafale deal, I don't think the LCA will be gaining as much from this deal as such an industrial package from the EFT guys would bring but that is how it is.


EFT consortium is in the position it is in to offer more (of what India wants/needs) because they LOST the head-head fight with the Rafale initially. So they NEED to offer the world just to get some attention. However, as it stands now, I don't actually think there is any provision for the L2 bidder to revise their bid and get back in the game- the MoD is in exclusive negations with Dassualt and that is just how it is.

Ifs and buts sir......

 

[sancho]

I still think that as far as the IAF is concerned the Rafale is the bird that fits them better than the EFT

"Currently" for sure, but as said, the timeframe has slipped and when you look at the 2018 timeframe, you basically have the Rafale F3R on the one side and the EF MLU at the other + Saudi upgrades in between. That means. the EF will have Storm Shadow, Brimstone and most likely METEOR. The MLU then might bring AESA, CFTs and at least SPEAR missiles + the mentioned modernisations of avionics. So when we compare these levels, there is not much capability difference anymore. EF will have deep and stand off strike capabilities even surpassing Rafale with AASM. CAS with Brimstone will be far more effective too and there are even rumors about the addition of anti ship missiles. All this not included the changes we can add on our own (Sudarshan, or SPICE).
The additional time and the possible upgrades of the Saudis can play in favour for the EF, by the time we might get MMRCAs now. IAF might have to compromise with EF T3As at the begining, but possibly can add 2 squads of EFs, before the first Rafale squad is available, because of the higher production capacity of the EF partners.

the second the decision was made to go for GE

Of course, but that only means that we take 80 x LCAs with that engine, while the long term perspecitve is still to replace all US engines with Kaveri. So if we get asistance of Eurojet to fix and even improve the engine now, that engine would end up in LCA anyway and would be a more realistic (developed with partners) choice for an AMCA too. The main reason for the GE engine was the fact that it's already navalised, so no further changes needed to use it on N-LCA. Another example where this useless development got to a problem for the Tejas in general.

However, as it stands now, I don't actually think there is any provision for the L2 bidder to revise their bid and get back in the game- the MoD is in exclusive negations with Dassualt and that is just how it is.

They can if they have reasons, for example Dassault not complying to the RFP requirements, or the recently reported issues with the life-cycle cost calculations. But of course, this is only a hypothetical scenario, to see what would be the best for India.

 

[Yeti]

@sancho we can buy the brimstone missile for the Rafale and share some missiles with the Mirage that we have also if the IAF wanted in the future. Eurofighter will improve massively in the A2G aspect there is no doubt about that as it's first role was always designed to be the best 4+ gen fighter in the A2A role but the Rafale's ability in ease of switching different mission types from ground recon,a2a and a2g is outstanding and it has a pilot's dream cockpit plus can carry more weapons compared to the Eurofighter. The EF Captor E looks very impressive, maybe India should use the EF to bait the French in offering us a better deal and more tech transfer to help with future AMCA project.

 

[shree835]

I doubt India is going to buy any of those Fighter aircraft...SCAMS gave India a solid Jhatka to India Economy....Say thanks to our Robotic mute PM.