UAE, Pakistan and Mirage 2000-9s

[khanasifm]

Paf mlu has apg68 and jhmcs
So same avionics as bulk 52 structural diff remains
Actually many ball 52 /50 were based on mlu by Europeans and others

USAF adopted on later blocks

 

[CriticalThought]

It is a very good aircraft.

There are better aircraft available.

 

[Surya 1]

There are better aircraft available.

Yes but you have to see what fits into your budget. F 35 is also available for sale.

 

[CriticalThought]

The chief of army is calling the shots---because in the last war at Kargil---the Paf was a no show---and with this coming clash---there is a good chance that it would still be ill-prepared and undercooked to fight an air war---.

@Oscar could you drop your pearls of wisdom on this matter? I thought the reasons why PAF didn't how up were:

1. It was a covert war that we didn't acknowledge.
2. It was covert to the extent that service chiefs were unaware.
3. Our jawans shot down two Indian MiGs and the rest of the time Indian aircraft didn't pose any threat inside Pakistani territory.

But then again, it has been sitting at the very edge of my comfort zone, that PAF was a no show in the Salala incident as well.

@Windjammer @Horus @Sarge

Yes but you have to see what fits into your budget. F 35 is also available for sale.

You have no idea of our budget.

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

• I wonder what can those mirage 2000-9 can do which jf-17 blk 3 cant.
• I also doubt they would be cheaper option,

For one JF-17 speed is less than M2K. But lets keep the specifications of what can be done or not on the side.

Approximately 2 years back Pakistan Navy was interested in procuring 2 squd. of fighter aircraft for protecting against the Indian Navy. These were to supplement the PAF squad. associated for such role. PM N. Shareef was briefed on this and he proposed that JF-17 should be procured. However some how this did not seem to the the right choice for the navy which wanted to procure something in the medium to heavy category.

With CPEC, Gawadar, EEZ and EEA the requirement might have increased, something PAC might not handle with the PAF and international orders for the JF-17's.

The M2K falls under the category PN was looking at and has pilots and basic infrastructure installed due to Mirage III / V's. However there are many new requirements for induction of M2K's which can be handled relatively easily.

Only logic is that Army providing funds but still product purchase is responsibility of concerned force and MoD.

PA required to raise two divisions some thing they could not do with Zerb- e Azb, hence Navy was asked to raise marines for the protection of CPEC using the reserves saved for the procurement of fighter aircraft. Now the PA is repaying this trough procurement of Aircraft (provided M2K is chosen).

If you remember PA also funded for the Jordanian F-16's for the PAF, which were required to keep the coalition support fund.

Read my reply versus your aurgument.

You said before:
its old and therefore expensive to maintain!
High costs due to closure of production!

You say now:
totally different from Mirrage 3s and 5s we have

M2K is different from the Mirage III/V's PAF operates. Aircraft evolve over the years in-respect to modern technologies however basic flight characteristics might be similar.

Certain performance parameters that are possible today might not have be possible on older aircraft hence every new aircraft are totally different though they might be from the same manufacturer.

Hi,

Mushy---being an army general wanted diversity---that is why he cancelled the saab awacs program in half and went for the chinese awacs---so that the sanctiosn stay away.

The air force had their kick backs from saab---and that got split in half.

Paf was mad at Mushy----when he left---they cancelled or ignored the deal---. It was purely for personal gains and nothing national about it---.

The reason being---than pakistan military was at battle stations since 2002---and there was a max / urgent need for a fighter aircraft---that has yet to be fulfilled even after 14 years---and we have lost many a battles against our arch enemy over these years---.



Hi,

You are right upto some extent---. It is same anti saudia arabia and anti emrirates force---.

The generak public does not see anything done for them---either by the saudis---the emiratis or the chinese---there are no chinese funded schools---colleges or hospitals in pakistan and neither are there from emirates and saudia---.

The arabs used to donate money---and our politicians plundered it---same with china---. China has not reached the grass root level.

For that reason---china must invest in some hospitals and schools in pakistan run by the chinese for the poor people---.

No country would like to be dependent on any one. That is the reason they try to diversify or industrialize them selves.
This tends to give an impression of self security. If you see Trump is isolating USA but still assuring Israel's security interests. As both these countries have mutual security intersests.

 

[imadul]

Iraq does not have the pilots nor the infrastructure to operate the Mirage 2000, almost everything was destroyed during the US invasion, that leaves Egypt who is already operating the M2K, but the latter seems to be more interested in very high end warplanes; Rafale, MIG-35, SU-35 and will most probably go for the JF-17 production afterwards..But still, if Pakistan and even Iraq do not find their way through the deal, Egypt will be more than happy to acquire them..And that might further delay any production prospects for the JF-17.. Thus, it is much better if Pakistan can secure the deal, it will be like hitting two birds with one stone and even more, since the JV will generate profits that will in the long run offset the price of the M2K-9 procurement..

August 10/16: Iraq’s Defense Ministry has received delivery of its latest batch

of four F-16 fighters. This brings to eight the number of fighters operational out of 36 promised by the US government. The sale goes toward bolstering the country’s growing air force fleet, replacing older Su-25s, in the government’s fight against the Islamic State.
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/iraq-seeks-f-16-fighters-05057/

anyway, M2000-9 wont be available that quick. if all goes well...at least 3 more years after UAE will start inducting Rafale and that will be in batches. Iraqi AF will have time to train and rebuild bases. Baghdad base is operational and per news will be home base of F-16.

....M2000-9 will be a good deal. But there is many a slip between the cup and the the lips. Dependencies and time of availability. MK thinks we need now, but seems at least 3-5 years for the full 50-60 tranche for this (at the moment hypothetical) deal.

 

[Basel]

Read my reply versus your aurgument.

You said before:
its old and therefore expensive to maintain!
High costs due to closure of production!

You say now:
totally different from Mirrage 3s and 5s we have

Don't try to twist things here, I stood by both my posts as both point are separate and true on ground.

Kindly discuss with some professional before posting here on topic, I have discussed it with many on duty guys and I know what PAF think about M2K9s, they are last option for them if good planes are not available. PAF guys want AESA and what M2K now offer which JFT or J-10 can't provide??

Other then F-16 any new/upgraded platform will take time to be integrated in PAF so it's better to have 4.5 gen bird which is available with ToT as we are not going to war in next few years.

Hi,

Bad question was answered by an equally bad answer---.

You kids are thoughtless---and do not have the ability to think.

I wrote about the INTEGRATION---it will take another 5-10 years to fully integrate the aesa equipped JF17---because it will not only have aesa but some other new goodies as well.

This is not a frigging F86 Sabre that the pilot would jump in the pilot's seat and take off like my Buddy's father did when he went to the U S to get the training.

These new first time built / manufactured 4 / 4.5 gen aircraft take time---take a lot of time to get used to---.

The chief of army is calling the shots---because in the last war at Kargil---the Paf was a no show---and with this coming clash---there is a good chance that it would still be ill-prepared and undercooked to fight an air war---.




Hi,

There was no rreason for china to offer asylum to Gen Mushy---but china needs to work on the grass root level in pakistan.

It may chose not to do so anywhere else in the world---but the situation with pakistan and china is totally different---.

China needs a totally different approach and policy for pakistan---and it needs to re-think and re-adjust its priorities---chinese hospitals and schools are a must---run by the chinese---. Building bridges amongst the people is not an easy job---but for them to fight for you and ally with you---you have to take things to a different level.




Hi,

Because this second hand M2k is far superior to anything that is out there available to pakistan for the price---and very easy to integrate---.

And the most important thing of all---it brings in an immediate force multiplier into the arena---.

Suppose---the emiratis agree to give 25 of the M2K9's to pakistan right away---which would mean that pak military has covered its arabian sea flank with the likes of a 1 1/2 division of crack fighting force in the blink of the eye---.

You talk big about PAF, have you even visited any of there base?? Have met people who work in MoD to understand mind set of Pakistani military??? Your post shows you haven't.

 

[Dazzler]

Don't try to twist things here, I stood by both my posts as both point are separate and true on ground.

Kindly discuss with some professional before posting here on topic, I have discussed it with many on duty guys and I know what PAF think about M2K9s, they are last option for them if good planes are not available. PAF guys want AESA and what M2K now offer which JFT or J-10 can't provide??

Other then F-16 any new/upgraded platform will take time to be integrated in PAF so it's better to have 4.5 gen bird which is available with ToT as we are not going to war in next few years.




You talk big about PAF, have you even visited any of there base?? Have met people who work in MoD to understand mind set of Pakistani military??? Your post shows you haven't.

Leave him alone in his delusional world, the man literally redefined the term and took it to new heights when he started the following thread.

https://defence.pk/threads/removal-of-autocannon-gsh-23-30-from-the-jf-17.472923/page-3#post-9115545

 

[Zarvan]

Leave him alone in his delusional world, the man literally redefined the term and took it to new heights when he started the following thread.

https://defence.pk/threads/removal-of-autocannon-gsh-23-30-from-the-jf-17.472923/page-3#post-9115545

I don't know about Mastan Khan but I need one thing for sure we need a third 4.5th Generation Platform soon and need it as fast as we can with Rafale coming and quite possible India also soon ordering either F-16 or Grippen NG we would need a third platform to counter it. Than we can focus on 5th Generation. @MastanKhan

 

[Centurion2016]

The UAE are looking to buy 60 rafales from France

This deal could take over 5 yesars to sign and deliver 60 rafales even longer.

THE UAE will probably not make the mirage2000/9 available to sell until the rafales arribve

Would the mirage 2000/9 delivered in 2022 still be useful

 

[Khafee]

Read the article below

infact the F16 MLU does not even have JHMC system for cueing dog fights.

THIS IS WHY most of the worlds richer nations scrapping their older F16 for new block 52 OR gripens or f35

http://www.f-16.net/f-16_versions_article9.html

Pakistan Air Force (PAF) F-16B Block-15 Mid-Life Update pilots with Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems.
Image credit: PAF Directorate of Media Relations

 

[MastanKhan]

You talk big about PAF, have you even visited any of there base?? Have met people who work in MoD to understand mind set of Pakistani military??? Your post shows you haven't.

Hi,

What Paf wants and what Pakistan and pakistan's military needs are two different things---and that has been made very clear by the procurements of Paf---.

I am very familiar with the mindset of Pak military and more so of the air force---.

They want Aesa now---they want IRST now---but 12 years ago when the change was very evident---they cared less about IRST----.

And 5 years ago---they cared less about Aesa---and even many a posters here who claimed to be close to Paf had the same thoughts.

And as @gambit had written in reply to them something like this---" once you know about aesa and use it and see what it can do---you are never going back " and these same guys or " GUY ' was giving him reasoning that won't be the case.

My good man---you are clueless as to how illiterate Paf is in matters of defense---.

The difference between me and you is----that you are over awed by them---you have to ask them to learn---and me---I can look them in the eye and tell them that they have fckd up---they are frigging morons---that they have deceived the country---in their arrogance---they have sold out the interests of the country for dollars and cushy after retirement jobs---.

You youngmen are so much brain washed that it is amazing----you see for yourself that you do not have adequate number of aircraft---you know that Paf is highly corrupt and yet you men come here and put forward excuses for them that there are no funds---.

You---young men try hard to cover and protect every blunder and excuse given by the Paf----as if it was some personal property that you might get inheritence out of.

What do you think the Paf general would tell me---about sanctions---of the 90's---.

I can easily expose his lies---he tells me about graft on the M2K purchase by Benazir---I can take care of that as well---he will tell me about 9/11---I can counter that as well and talk about the 4 years of drama of jumping from one aircraft to another---.

Pappy---what is your air force officer going to tell me---unless and until he admits that he has committed treason against the interests of the state by not getting the much needed weapons system in a timely manner---not reacting to the news of missiles boats coming towards karachi---not offering to help at Longewala---amongst a few---other than that---he has nothing much to say---.

I don't know about Mastan Khan but I need one thing for sure we need a third 4.5th Generation Platform soon and need it as fast as we can with Rafale coming and quite possible India also soon ordering either F-16 or Grippen NG we would need a third platform to counter it. Than we can focus on 5th Generation. @MastanKhan

Hi,

That is what I have been saying for a longtime---. Another aircraft has to be inducted before the 5th gen aircraft---. A medium to heavy aircraft.

 

[ali_raza]

Hi,

What Paf wants and what Pakistan and pakistan's military needs are two different things---and that has been made very clear by the procurements of Paf---.

I am very familiar with the mindset of Pak military and more so of the air force---.

They want Aesa now---they want IRST now---but 12 years ago when the change was very evident---they cared less about IRST----.

And 5 years ago---they cared less about Aesa---and even many a posters here who claimed to be close to Paf had the same thoughts.

And as @gambit had written in reply to them something like this---" once you know about aesa and use it and see what it can do---you are never going back " and these same guys or " GUY ' was giving him reasoning that won't be the case.

My good man---you are clueless as to how illiterate Paf is in matters of defense---.

The difference between me and you is----that you are over awed by them---you have to ask them to learn---and me---I can look them in the eye and tell them that they have fckd up---they are frigging morons---that they have deceived the country---in their arrogance---they have sold out the interests of the country for dollars and cushy after retirement jobs---.

You youngmen are so much brain washed that it is amazing----you see for yourself that you do not have adequate number of aircraft---you know that Paf is highly corrupt and yet you men come here and put forward excuses for them that there are no funds---.

You---young men try hard to cover and protect every blunder and excuse given by the Paf----as if it was some personal property that you might get inheritence out of.

What do you think the Paf general would tell me---about sanctions---of the 90's---.

I can easily expose his lies---he tells me about graft on the M2K purchase by Benazir---I can take care of that as well---he will tell me about 9/11---I can counter that as well and talk about the 4 years of drama of jumping from one aircraft to another---.

Pappy---what is your air force officer going to tell me---unless and until he admits that he has committed treason against the interests of the state by not getting the much needed weapons system in a timely manner---not reacting to the news of missiles boats coming towards karachi---not offering to help at Longewala---amongst a few---other than that---he has nothing much to say---.



Hi,

That is what I have been saying for a longtime---. Another aircraft has to be inducted before the 5th gen aircraft---. A medium to heavy aircraft.

u alwys hit the nail on head salute to ur courage.
but in the same time being devils advocate we must agree that no one have himd sight to see future.what best could have done was done.
and like all our country PAF have too got there fare share of blunders

 

[Basel]

u alwys hit the nail on head salute to ur courage.
but in the same time being devils advocate we must agree that no one have himd sight to see future.what best could have done was done.
and like all our country PAF have too got there fare share of blunders

Corrupt government and funds are issues which hampered modernization plans of PAF, they also have issue of replacing old obsolete low level radars and other sensors and good amount will be needed to replace those with 21st century capable systems.

 

[MastanKhan]

There is a big turmoil under the sea surface. To be honest, USA keeps interfere in Pakistan domestic politics, and China shall do something to fight back.

Hi,

Let me say something more devastating for china----.

If today---in india----if someone takes off the wig of stupidity and thinks intelligent---they would start investing in hospitals and schools in pakistan.

Whomsoever does that---that provides general health and education facilities to the pakistanis---the pakistanis will rollover towards them.

The average pakistani is tired of raising slogans of middle east pakistan unity or pakistani china unity----they don't see nothing in it for them---.

I bet you---if india did provides hospitals and schools in pakistan---china can write off pak cheen dosti----ie---pak china friendship off---.

u alwys hit the nail on head salute to ur courage.
but in the same time being devils advocate we must agree that no one have himd sight to see future.what best could have done was done.
and like all our country PAF have too got there fare share of blunders

Hi,

You cannot live by those excuses---. There is no such thing as hindsight in this case---it was simple and pure negligence---careless and callous approach---and it was based on total arrogance that we are superior than them---.

Corrupt government and funds are issues which hampered modernization plans of PAF, they also have issue of replacing old obsolete low level radars and other sensors and good amount will be needed to replace those with 21st century capable systems.

Hi,

For that very reason---you keep on buying them over the period of time---because in the end---it all adds up.

That is why you see a a very tall mountain in front of you---because---firstly---you never prepared well to climb it---and secondly---you haven't even started to make the climb---and all that is being stated is " man---how hard this climb is "---.