U.S. Sends Second Carrier to Asia Amid Tensions with China

[sincity]

But if China continues to alienate neighbors, whether through provocative oil drilling or propaganda against Japan's atrocities from 70+ years ago, those neighbors will naturally gravitate towards the US, which is not doing anything to alienate them. As I said to Genesis, it's really China that is encircling itself, not us.



Japan, Philippine, South Korea were and always be US allies, these countries will never abandon US alliance to join China camp. No matter what China action taken in East Asia or Southeast Asia, US troops already station in those country, those country effectively serve as the extension of US empire after the end of WW2. US played up China threat to further alienate them against China and strengthen those nation reliance on US military for those nations survival and to protect those nation territorial claim in the territorial dispute with China. US will never cede US economical and military power to China in Asia. For you to blame China aggressive stance for the main cause of the anti China sentiment among some nations in Asia, you failed to convince other if they look deep into the history US conduct foreign policy in Asia or see the reality hostile situation in Asia will better preserve US interest in the region.

 

[sahaliyan]

But if China continues to alienate neighbors, whether through provocative oil drilling or propaganda against Japan's atrocities from 70+ years ago, those neighbors will naturally gravitate towards the US, which is not doing anything to alienate them. As I said to Genesis, it's really China that is encircling itself, not us.



Japan, Philippine, South Korea were and always be US allies, these countries will never abandon US alliance to join China camp. No matter what China action taken in East Asia or Southeast Asia, US troops already station in those country, those country effectively serve as the extension of US empire after the end of WW2. US played up China threat to further alienate them against China and strengthen those nation reliance on US military for those nations survival and to protect those nation territorial claim in the territorial dispute with China. US will never cede US economical and military power to China in Asia. For you to blame China aggressive stance for the main cause of the anti China sentiment among some nations in Asia, you failed to convince other if they look deep into the history US conduct foreign policy in Asia or see the reality hostile situation in Asia will better preserve US interest in the region.

I think South Korea can be neautral or in our side if the north Korea issue solved,I don't think we have real disputes,the north Korean regime is a joke of the world,no need to protect them.But South Korea should realize China's care of security ,I think that can happen in the future.
I don't know much about the Philipines,it seems they have a pro-American elites?

 

[sincity]

I think South Korea can be neautral or in our side if the north Korea issue solved,I don't think we have real disputes,the north Korean regime is a joke of the world,no need to protect them.But South Korea should realize China's care of security ,I think that can happen in the future.
I don't know much about the Philipines,it seems they have a pro-American elites?

Philippine allowed US troop back to the country, effectively cede their independent to the US in geopolitical or their independent foreign policy to the US government.

 

[Abingdonboy]

The Shear firepower of just 1 CBG can glass any nation from the face of the earth.

Most smaller nations sure. But a solitary CBG could not overwhelm the top 10-15 militaries in the world.

All 11 combined though is another story......

The anecdote I heard a while back holds true- who has the second largest AF in the world after the USAF? The USN!

 

[sahaliyan]

Philippine allowed US troop back to the country, effectively cede their independent to the US in geopolitical or their independent foreign policy to the US government.

I see,maybe because of their history,I'm not familiar with Philipines,nor I'm care
It seems our American friend think too well about their country,but it seems their image in may third world countries are not too good,for example,in middle east,most people have negative opinion on America,while our image is surely better than them in most developed countries
So when our American friends talk about respect,first ask yourself,do you respect other countries,especially the small countries?Why most middle eastern people dislike you?How many countries you invaded?How many countries China invaded?I think with comparision,we can see better

 

[LeveragedBuyout]

@LeveragedBuyout , you truly are 一人の軍隊 [Hitori No Guntai] -- One Man Army. Good to see the American point of view being heralded in this section.

I do my best, but I am fortunate to have intelligent and reasonable interlocutors like @Chinese-Dragon , @Edison Chen , @Genesis and @sahaliyan .

That said, there is a reason why I have been gradually returning to lurker status, and have only joined threads where I am specifically tagged.

Thank you for your kind words.

 

[LeveragedBuyout]

But if China continues to alienate neighbors, whether through provocative oil drilling or propaganda against Japan's atrocities from 70+ years ago, those neighbors will naturally gravitate towards the US, which is not doing anything to alienate them. As I said to Genesis, it's really China that is encircling itself, not us.



Japan, Philippine, South Korea were and always be US allies, these countries will never abandon US alliance to join China camp. No matter what China action taken in East Asia or Southeast Asia, US troops already station in those country, those country effectively serve as the extension of US empire after the end of WW2. US played up China threat to further alienate them against China and strengthen those nation reliance on US military for those nations survival and to protect those nation territorial claim in the territorial dispute with China. US will never cede US economical and military power to China in Asia. For you to blame China aggressive stance for the main cause of the anti China sentiment among some nations in Asia, you failed to convince other if they look deep into the history US conduct foreign policy in Asia or see the reality hostile situation in Asia will better preserve US interest in the region.

Not really. The current leadership of SK is quite pro-China, and a couple of administrations ago, under the viscerally anti-US Roh Muhyun. Even Chinese members here have marvelled at the insane nationalism of the Koreans. When I was doing some business in Japan 5 years ago, South Koreans assured me that as soon as they overthrew their American overlords, they would have a peaceful reunification with their North Korean brethren. It boggles the mind. But I have no illusions about SK--they are gone as soon as China makes them the right offer.

The Philippines have a schizophrenic and wary relationship with us, and it wasn't that long ago that the pro-China, anti-US DPJ was in power in Japan. Alliances shift and change, nothing is forever. Who knows, someday we could be allied with China against Japan. Not so far-fetched: that was the case 70 years ago.

 

[gambit]

really, reality based on what. Your bias? This is especially apparent in the next few paragraphs.

No bias about it. Just common sense.

As a motorcyclist for slightly over half of my adult life, I rode bikes from 125cc to 1200cc displacement. There were spans of yrs where I did not have a motorcycle at all and when I had a couple. I can say that I am an 'experienced' motorcyclist, but if I say 'good', people will ask: compare to what standards or who ?

You say PLAAF pilots are 'good'. The compare to who ? US ? The Japanese ? The Indians ? You who have no military experience at all is telling those of us who do have military experience what the PLA is ?

How many times do I have to say this, desert storm is a wake up call, but it happened because of the timing. 1991, we don't even have any fourth gen fighter, how are we suppose to make any accurate calls. I can ask you to make predictions on how popular the apps I develop is going to be, but you would make more or less the same mistake. Because you have no experience in that field. But if you did, you can more accurately make this call.

Today most of what you have we have either in development, or in service, some are inferior, others are the same more or less, we can make a better call today. As I will say later, we do also study other wars, especially American wars.

But your PLA did make the calls, and they ended up with egg fu yung on their faces. The reason the PLA generals made those predictions is mainly arrogance.

My point is that despite the PLA reformation going on now, the scope and scale of that reformation, especially when it draws so heavily upon a military that is a potential adversary -- US, the PLA is essentially undergoing a rebirth, starting afresh, everything from organizational restructuring to appearance to doctrines and pretty much everything else, except for the politicization of the military itself. Every parent believes his/her baby is the smartest and most handsome child yet on this planet. That is what I am seeing in YOU as you tries to portray the PLA as something it is not, or at best remains to be seen.

Self criticism is something that exists in droves in the PLA. Just recently, during one of our exercises, the newly created test "blue" army, completely humiliated the best brigades in all of China. All of those men were o n their way to being generals.

Only now it may exists.

The time for hiding your head in the sand is over.

What are you talking about ? The US military may have missed opportunities, intelligence, and/or technologies due to incompetence and/or money but burying its head in the sand is not something it does. If anything, it has been the PLA who have buried its head in the sand.

Is this suppose to be a joke, the first part, you know you are more insulting your own profession than Chinese, for you are taking the profession very lightly.

Yes it was.

If what you said is true then our pilot that shadowed you should have hit your plane and crashed, cause you know, we suck.

I give what I received. The Chinese members here have a history of being insulting towards everything American, from individuals on this forum and towards the US as a country. You do not like that I say: 'you suck' ? Then perhaps the lot of you starting behaving like adults.

 

[LeveragedBuyout]

Never, that I'll admit, but a couple of reasons for this.

At no point in history has a nation been so powerful. America can destroy a militarily competent Iraq, though destroyed by years of war with Iran, with so few loses, even Rome of old or ancient Chinese empires cannot do that.

Is a concert of Europe more peaceful world? Maybe not, because the balance of power, may even be the cause of conflicts, since any one major nation can take on another if given the right circumstances. Right now as long as the US don't go crazy, peace can more or less be kept.

But in terms of trade, China, middle east has always prospered with trade, the Song fleet of trade ships dwarfs any Dutch fleet that came after it.

In a way the American system is the Chinese system with American characteristics, rather than a Euro system. Countries such as UK and Japan retain their autonomy more or less, but they would defer to America for major issues. This obviously has evolved and not exactly like our old system, but the key similarity is the unchallenged power of the host. We had it, you have it.


But thing thing right now is, just like Europeans eventually become able to break the system in Asia after centuries of trying(opium war wasn't the first, it's just that before it, it was small scale and it was our victory), so too are we more and more capable of breaking such a system. China handle it poorly, how would America handle it?

This isn't saying it's a better world, but it is a world that will happen, we face it for better or worse.




Can any of the asian tigers challenge America? We will surpass your GDP, by 2023 at latest. that would only be about 1/4th of your per capita.

We are different than any other Asian tigers.

I don't really care about our neighbors, they will come around later, that will come with time, Canada and Mexico wasn't America's biggest fan before, but things have a way of working out once certain pieces fall into place. Besides, what neighbors? We got good enough relations with most of them, just Japan, Philippines and Vietnam. A great nation, and two nut cases.



Again, I'm not saying better world, I am saying our world. Leaving your parent's house isn't going to be smooth and won't necessarily be better, but independence is important, freedom to do what you want is important. Being America you would understand that wouldn't you.

Fair enough. It's all speculation until it happens, and we will be fortunate enough to be alive at the dawn of that era.

I really like your point about the "Chinese system with American characteristics.". That's something I need to think and read about more.

 

[55100864]

@LeveragedBuyout
I think the US and many americans are overreacted in this particularly case. let me ask u what were the objectives of the P8 plane in the coast of Hainan island? several possibilities.
1. to show the american audience and politicians that the Obama is tough on china, he is not a clown.
2. to send a signal to US allies that daddy is here to protects u, no worries.
3. to test China's red line.
4. the most practical one: to collects datas of our newest nuclear sub.

Whatever the objectives were, that particularly mission has failed. u sent ur P8 anti sub plane near our nuclear sub base, we had to response, we had to assume u were here to really undermine our national security, u may say it's just a regular recon mission, no it's not, it was a anti sub plane near our sub base, u don't do that regularly, it's very unusual, otherwise our J11 fighter would not perform such aggressive manoeuvre. u do regularly send ur plane near our coast and we unusually just intercept and shadowed ur plane, and this kinds of normal encounter never got published, agree?
we did what we had to, barrel roll or whatever, clearly ur mission was disturbed, if we just shadowed ur plane, u can just continue ur spying, i don't know whether the P8 returned to base right after the barrel roll ( l think so, otherwise the news would say how brave and tough the US was, continued its glorious mission despite the ‘dangerous’ behaviour from chinese pilot.
I think our pilot have done a great job.

 

[LeveragedBuyout]

@LeveragedBuyout
I think the US and many americans are overreacted in this particularly case. let me ask u what were the objectives of the P8 plane in the coast of Hainan island? several possibilities.
1. to show the american audience and politicians that the Obama is tough on china, he is not a clown.
2. to send a signal to US allies that daddy is here to protects u, no worries.
3. to test China's red line.
4. the most practical one: to collects datas of our newest nuclear sub.

Whatever the objectives were, that particularly mission has failed. u sent ur P8 anti sub plane near our nuclear sub base, we had to response, we had to assume u were here to really undermine our national security, u may say it's just a regular recon mission, no it's not, it was a anti sub plane near our sub base, u don't do that regularly, it's very unusual, otherwise our J11 fighter would not perform such aggressive manoeuvre. u do regularly send ur plane near our coast and we unusually just intercept and shadowed ur plane, and this kinds of no normal encounter never got published, agree?
we did what we had to, barrel roll or whatever, clearly ur mission was disturbed, if we just shadowed ur plane, u can just continue ur spying, i don't know whether the P8 returned to base right after the barrel roll ( l think so, otherwise the news would say how brave and tough the US was, continued its glorious mission despite the ‘dangerous’ behaviour from chinese pilot.
I think our pilot have done a great job.

It's true that the Chinese pilots are usually professional, which is why there is usually silence about these patrols from both the US and China.

As far as trying to physically block the P8 from gathering intelligence, I can't say whether or not the US succeeded. I have never seen a chest-beating article in the US bragging about gathering intelligence in the face of harassment--can you please provide some examples?

The only example of this sort I can think of was the first Hainan Island incident, which caused huge outrage in the US (not even necessarily from the suicidal pilot, but because China then essentially committed air piracy by stripping the plane of its equipment). That could have had serious repercussions if 9/11 hadn't happened. But I have never seen an article that brags about an intelligence-gathering operation; wouldn't that defeat the purpose? Remember, our media is independent, unlike China's.

In addition, I am no military expert, but it was my impression that planes can be intercepted and redirected without harassing maneuvers, and that such a protocol is usually (successfully) followed. Am I wrong?

 

[Zsari]

There are 90 F-18s and assorted fighters per Carrier, the fact that there are 2 means that these CBGs can launch oer 180 fighters at any given time. Let's be pragmatic as well, we all know that 1 CBG may have 3-5 nuclear submarines attached, one sub has the capability to launch strategic thermonuclear warheads. So, imagine 2 CBGS = 6-10 Nuclear Subs.

This does not take into consideration Ticonderoga Class Cruisers and their Tomahawk Cruise Missiles, not including the destroyers.

Its a threat, especially for the PLAN's South Sea Fleet.

No carrier has a pure 90 F-18 fighter loadout, as you need room for Prowler, Hawkeye, Seahawk and other assortment of utility & support aircrafts. Normally 24-36 strike fighter is the max you'll find in a carrier air wing. And you don't attach SSBN to your carrier groups but rather SSN for escort purpose. SSBN & SSGN patrols independently for attaching any surface ship would defeat the whole purpose of their mission.

 

[Aepsilons]

SSBNs trail and are within the vicinity of a CBG.

 

[liontk]

SSBNs trail and are within the vicinity of a CBG.

Thanks/mercu beaucoup mon ami for keeping us up to date on south china sea.I will admit that canada should be doing more for japan however we dont have the assets sadly to put a stand against china's agression against japan.
I heard in local news that china wants to annex your island?is that true?

 

[Aepsilons]

Thanks/mercu beaucoup mon ami for keeping us up to date on south china sea.I will admit that canada should be doing more for japan however we dont have the assets sadly to put a stand against china's agression against japan.
I heard in local news that china wants to annex your island?is that true?

Je vous en prie, mon ami @liontk

Looking forward to greater Canadian - US - Japan military exercises together.