U.S. Sends Second Carrier to Asia Amid Tensions with China

[Battle of Bach Dang River]

Perhaps the chinese need more ice buckets now...

 

[terranMarine]

True, but China also has a tremendous spying apparatus directed at us as well. If China wants the US to stop spying from international waters (which is legal based on the treaties China has signed), perhaps it can build goodwill towards such a request by ceasing it's hacking activities and constant stealing of IP first (which is illegal based on the treaties China has signed).

Both China and US spy on each other through cyberspace but what the US is also doing is close surveillance near Hainan. The sooner you realize it's not gonna help forging mutual trust the better as China will not tolerate such close proximity spying. I know things won't change as US even spy on EU allies, says enough about trust which hardly exist.

 

[Huaren]

Perhaps the chinese need more ice buckets now...

This is the one only occation I believe viets should stay quiet about, considering the fact that the US used the same tactic to start the vietnam war. To do otherwise would mean that either you disregard your own suffering or you come from southern viet who were on the losing side, but no matter what, agent orange was NOT a blessing.

 

[Battle of Bach Dang River]

This is the one only occation I believe viets should stay quiet about, considering the fact that the US used the same tactic to start the vietnam war. To do otherwise would mean that either you disregard your own suffering or you come from southern viet who were on the losing side, but no matter what, agent orange was NOT a blessing.

They (Americans) invaded VN 1 time.
but you (the chinese) invaded our country 17 times.
You think you are angels, only they are bad?

 

[Huaren]

They (Americans) invaded VN 1 time.
but you (the chinese) invaded our country 17 times.
You think you are angels, only they are bad?

Like I have said any viets can be as anti china as possible, but keep it down when seeing deja vu situation like this, its not for the chinese, but to be considerable for your own suffering not long ago(as how many of your children are still suffering under the "after effects"). I expect you to be blind with hate when facing chinese (tbh we dont care), but to be this blind is just sad.

 

[Battle of Bach Dang River]

Like I have said any viets can be as anti china as possible, but keep it down when seeing deja vu situation like this, its not for the chinese, but to be considerable for your own suffering not long ago(as how many of your children are still suffering under the "after effects"). I expect you to be blind with hate when facing chinese (tbh we dont care), but to be this blind is just sad.

This is good.
We (VN-US) have established the warm relation in recent times. Hope you do not harass us.
Even the ability to allow American carriers access to Cam Ranh Bay that is being considered...

 

[LeveragedBuyout]

It happened because we want it to. Without going back to more of the same, let's just say we agree to disagree on whether we should have done it.

Second, we are not exactly sure if it had indeed happened.

Third we have special squads that trains for this exact thing, they are the aces of our air force. So don't worry, it's safe if we want it to be. And it will be safe, seeing as how we are no longer that weak anymore.

Fourth and finally, the US can be angry and you want, your I'm not touching you tactics have made fools of us for better part of two to three decades and more. So what if we did do this, which I'm not saying we did, we are only doing a few intercepts, wait when our navy and air force further expands that we can not only enforce the ADIZ, but also move pass Japan.


The few posts we had back and forth I feel you have a mistrust of China based on previous events, while also critical of history. Which is understandable, but I think it's time for both of us to reevaluate the Asia question, and the China question as well as the US question.

While you mistrust us, we more or less dislike you for what we see as insults to a great nation. What's the solution, to me it would be slow integration.

Start with stopping things that hardly help you like these fly bys, these things clearly challenges our position in the world, you can see it from this forum or any other comment section, or even your news, and start integrating us into the world and not things like TPP. What are we suppose to think that this partnership didn't include us but include worse countries is what, not deliberate. It won't work btw, Napoleon tried the continental blockade and it didn't work, now days it will work less.

But in exchange, hold China accountable, not in a way that you pass judgement, but make us clean up any mess we make.

The key is, if you don't trust us, then don't, watch. But don't let that mistrust delay progress, it's far better to engage us now in a meaningful way, rather than later when we are so much more powerful and we force you to the table. It's never good if it's forced, because at that point, nothing you do will feel like helping and welcoming and everything will feel like forced.

The last 30 years has been the story of the US integrating China into our system. We have opened trade to you, offshored our manufacturing to you, ignored your abuses (stealing IP, manipulating the RMB, protecting NK, etc.). From our perspective, we have already made the goodwill gestures. As you have already pointed out, China has benefitted enormously from this system. The problem is that China interprets this as US weakness, the sign of a declining power, and exploits the system until it is stopped. When we finally stop China, China announces that it has been insulted, and the US is trying to undermine China. China has just turned a win-win system into a zero-sum, only China wins system.

Is it not China's turn to reciprocate? As I said before, instead of issuing some surreal and illogical statements about how Chinese domestic law prohibits US spying from international waters, China could merely have said the issue was under investigation. The US has no history of initiating violence with China--quite the opposite. We helped China in WWII. We opened trade to China under the tyrant Mao. We have sought greater interaction and transparency with the PLA through military exchanges and events like RIMPAC.

When China spies on RIMPAC, the US government is prosaic. China should reciprocate. As you say, there is little reason for us to be enemies, but friendliness does not mean a one-way stream of concessions by the US to China. I don't know why China feels the need to fabricate grievances to poison our relationship, but that's China's choice, not ours.

I don't know what you mean by holding China accountable without passing judgment, but still making China clean up its mess. We value the relationship with China and recognize the mutual benefits. We are therefore not going to embargo China or initiate military hostilities with China. As all the Chinese users here have demanded, we don't interfere (for the most part) with Chinese internal affairs.

Let me conclude by saying that I have a deep admiration for the Chinese people, their intelligence, ambition, and history. I deeply admire China's achievements over the last 30 years. But trust? What has China done for the US lately that would induce trust? Does China vote with us on the UNSC, or instead condemn our agenda? Does China commit military resources to stabilize the Arc of Instability, or does it instead condemn our imperialistic and war-mongering behavior, while simultaneously exploiting the stability we bring to extract resources for its own economy? Does China reform its worst economic abuses, or continue to manipulate the RMB, steal IP, and fabricate anti-monopoly investigations against foreign firms, while simultaneously screaming at the US over our [partially China-induced] debt problems and attending reserve currency privileges?

I am struggling here, so perhaps you can help me out. Why should the US trust China?

Both China and US spy on each other through cyberspace but what the US is also doing is close surveillance near Hainan. The sooner you realize it's not gonna help forging mutual trust the better as China will not tolerate such close proximity spying. I know things won't change as US even spy on EU allies, says enough about trust which hardly exist.

Trust, but verify.
-Ronald Reagan

We all spy on each other. What we don't all do is risk conflagration by sending out incompetent pilots to accidentally become kamikaze pilots for the second time in 13 years. 2001? Plausible accident. A second event?

Fool me once, shame on you. Won't get fooled again.
-George W. Bush

 

[Huaren]

The last 30 years has been the story of the US integrating China into our system. We have opened trade to you, offshored our manufacturing to you, ignored your abuses (stealing IP, manipulating the RMB, protecting NK, etc.). From our perspective, we have already made the goodwill gestures. As you have already pointed out, China has benefitted enormously from this system. The problem is that China interprets this as US weakness, the sign of a declining power, and exploits the system until it is stopped. When we finally stop China, China announces that it has been insulted, and the US is trying to undermine China. China has just turned a win-win system into a zero-sum, China only wins system.

Is it not China's turn to reciprocate? As I said before, instead of issuing some surreal and illogical statements about how Chinese domestic law prohibits US spying from international waters, China could merely have said the issue was under investigation. The US has no history of initiating violence with China--quite the opposite. We helped China in WWII. We opened trade to China under the tyrant Mao. We have sought greater interaction and transparency with the PLA through military exchanges and events like RIMPAC.

When China spies on RIMPAC, the US government is prosaic. China should reciprocate. As you say, there is little reason for us to be enemies, but friendliness does not mean a one-way stream of concessions by the US to China. I don't know why China feels the need to fabricate grievances to poison our relationship, but that's China's choice, not ours.

I don't know what you mean by holding China accountable without passing judgment, but still making China clean up its mess. We value the relationship with China and recognize the mutual benefits. We are therefore not going to embargo China or initiate military hostilities with China. As all the Chinese users here have demanded, we don't interfere (for the most part) with Chinese internal affairs.

Let me conclude by saying that I have a deep admiration for the Chinese people, their intelligence, ambition, and history. I deeply admire China's achievements over the last 30 years. But trust? What has China done for the US lately that would induce trust? Does China vote with us on the UNSC, or instead condemn our agenda? Does China commit military resources to stabilize the Arc of Instability, or does it instead condemn our imperialistic and war-mongering behavior, while simultaneously exploiting the stability we bring to extract resources for its own economy? Does China reform it's worst economic abuses, or continue to manipulate the RMB, steal IP, and fabricate anti-monopoly investigations against foreign firms, while simultaneously screaming at the US over our [partially China-induced] debt problems and attending reserve currency privileges?

I am struggling here, so perhaps you can help me out. Why should the US trust China?



Trust, but verify.
-Ronald Reagan

We all spy on each other. What we don't all do is risk conflagration by sending out incompetent pilots to accidentally become kamikaze pilots for the second time in 13 years. 2001? Plausible accident. A second event?

Fool me once, shame on you. Won't get fooled again.
-George W. Bush

Sorry to break it to you but chinese dont believe in goodwill between nations so easily, especially in the case of US. Both in china and europe many (if not most of) common people would say you are the troublemaker of this age, and it is the US who is making problem worse all around the globe ever since the end of second world war. In the case of China nobody (beside in the "diplomatic language" of some leaders) would believe the "good will" of american (as a nation) to be real, people would say you "helped" us because of your national and economic interests, the same way you are building alliance to contain us (or russia or anybody who might challange your interest in whatever regions of this world), people would say we dont owe you anything, because we took the oppertunity and worked hard ourselve to achieve our position with great sacrifice. The same way as you have took the oppertunities when european power were struggeling among themselves, all the wealth were flowing to you and it was not out of "good will" either, Chinese as many others see you as the obstacle to multi polar world order, so you wont be able to find any trust before your "retreat".

On the sidenote when I was on a train to Zhejiang a few days ago I had a quite interesting discussion with a group of people. I was implying that we as chinese should be grateful that in the last few decades our nation was able to cooperate peacefully with so foreign nations, which helped to to build industry and economy, the thing is I was being branded as "traitor" because apparantly I didnt put enough reference on the hard work and sacrifice of our people, and fundamentally they are disagreeing with me that the goodwill (of developed nations) exist at all, while they have nothing against common western people, but as developed nations are unworthy of any trust. After some time I realized that it is the meddling of US & allies around the globe for the past decades that made them distrust foreigners (westerners). The discussion got heated up because I tried to defend the european point of view at certain stages, thankfully we still had at lease some common ground so it didnt end up with a fight.

So while my view was being considered as nationalistic chinese by lots of people in europe (and US since I was briefly in San Diego), I would still be seen as "banana person" or even "traitor" by many in China.

 

[sahaliyan]

The last 30 years has been the story of the US integrating China into our system. We have opened trade to you, offshored our manufacturing to you, ignored your abuses (stealing IP, manipulating the RMB, protecting NK, etc.). From our perspective, we have already made the goodwill gestures. As you have already pointed out, China has benefitted enormously from this system. The problem is that China interprets this as US weakness, the sign of a declining power, and exploits the system until it is stopped. When we finally stop China, China announces that it has been insulted, and the US is trying to undermine China. China has just turned a win-win system into a zero-sum, China only wins system.

Is it not China's turn to reciprocate? As I said before, instead of issuing some surreal and illogical statements about how Chinese domestic law prohibits US spying from international waters, China could merely have said the issue was under investigation. The US has no history of initiating violence with China--quite the opposite. We helped China in WWII. We opened trade to China under the tyrant Mao. We have sought greater interaction and transparency with the PLA through military exchanges and events like RIMPAC.

When China spies on RIMPAC, the US government is prosaic. China should reciprocate. As you say, there is little reason for us to be enemies, but friendliness does not mean a one-way stream of concessions by the US to China. I don't know why China feels the need to fabricate grievances to poison our relationship, but that's China's choice, not ours.

I don't know what you mean by holding China accountable without passing judgment, but still making China clean up its mess. We value the relationship with China and recognize the mutual benefits. We are therefore not going to embargo China or initiate military hostilities with China. As all the Chinese users here have demanded, we don't interfere (for the most part) with Chinese internal affairs.

Let me conclude by saying that I have a deep admiration for the Chinese people, their intelligence, ambition, and history. I deeply admire China's achievements over the last 30 years. But trust? What has China done for the US lately that would induce trust? Does China vote with us on the UNSC, or instead condemn our agenda? Does China commit military resources to stabilize the Arc of Instability, or does it instead condemn our imperialistic and war-mongering behavior, while simultaneously exploiting the stability we bring to extract resources for its own economy? Does China reform it's worst economic abuses, or continue to manipulate the RMB, steal IP, and fabricate anti-monopoly investigations against foreign firms, while simultaneously screaming at the US over our [partially China-induced] debt problems and attending reserve currency privileges?

I am struggling here, so perhaps you can help me out. Why should the US trust China?



Trust, but verify.
-Ronald Reagan

We all spy on each other. What we don't all do is risk conflagration by sending out incompetent pilots to accidentally become kamikaze pilots for the second time in 13 years. 2001? Plausible accident. A second event?

Fool me once, shame on you. Won't get fooled again.
-George W. Bush

You also get benefit for our joining your system,you did this all for your interests.then we get our current position thanks for our parent generations' hard working,they are the main reasons China from an agriculturalist country became an industial country.People borned in 1960s,1970s generation endured tears,sweat and blood,they only want to work hard to make their children get better education,get better lives and lift from poverty.
The glories and dreams of the 1960,1970 generations,this is a picture taken from a train the labourers go to Guangzhou in 1992 AD.

Our wealth successed from our older generations hard working,you better to know this

 

[LeveragedBuyout]

Sorry to break it to you but chinese dont believe in goodwill between nations so easily, especially in the case of US. Both in china and europe many (if not most of) common people would say you are the troublemaker of this age, and it is the US who is making problem worse all around the globe ever since the end of second world war. In the case of China nobody (beside in the "diplomatic language" of some leaders) would believe the "good will" of american (as a nation) to be real, people would say you "helped" us because of your national and economic interests, the same way you are building alliance to contain us (or russia or anybody who might challange your interest in whatever regions of this world), people would say we dont owe you anything, because we took the oppertunity and worked hard ourselve to achieve our position with great sacrifice. The same way as you have took the oppertunities when european power were struggeling among themselves, all the wealth were flowing to you and it was not out of "good will" either, Chinese as many others see you as the obstacle to multi polar world order, so you wont be able to find any trust before your "retreat".

I am also sorry to hear this, because it means that no matter what the US does, China will regard it with hostility. That is China's prerogative, of course, but it should not be surprised if this generates mistrust on our part, and consequent actions deriving from that mistrust.

You also get benefit for our joining your system,you did this all for your interests.then we get our current position thanks for our parent generations' hard working,they are the main reasons China from an agriculturalist country became an industial country.People borned in 1960s,1970s generation endured tears,sweat and blood,they only want to work hard to make their children get better education,get better lives and lift from poverty.
The glories and dreams of the 1960,1970 generations,this is a picture taken from a train the labourers go to Guangzhou in 1992 AD.

Our wealth successed from our older generations hard working,you better to know this

I am on a mobile device, so I can't post it, but please look up the annual growth rates of China before the US established relations, and the annual growth rate after the US established relations (there is a Wikipedia article titled "Historical GDP of the People's Republic of China").

No doubt, the Chinese worked hard for their achievements, and China did this for itself. But until the US made the decision to integrate China into our system, Chinese hard work didn't accomplish nearly as much. I also don't believe that the Chinese who worked for the advancement of China pre-1972 were somehow inferior to the ubermenschen Chinese who entered the workforce post-1972. The main difference is the US.

That said, we both benefited, yes. It speaks volumes about the Chinese zero-sum mentality that it is seen as a negative for China that the US also benefited from this, or that the US is somehow insidious and malevolent for benefiting from this, or that the US had something to do with China's growth.

 

[Genesis]

The last 30 years has been the story of the US integrating China into our system. We have opened trade to you, offshored our manufacturing to you, ignored your abuses (stealing IP, manipulating the RMB, protecting NK, etc.). From our perspective, we have already made the goodwill gestures. As you have already pointed out, China has benefitted enormously from this system. The problem is that China interprets this as US weakness, the sign of a declining power, and exploits the system until it is stopped. When we finally stop China, China announces that it has been insulted, and the US is trying to undermine China. China has just turned a win-win system into a zero-sum, China only wins system.

China isn't trying to turn it into a zero sum, but due to circumstances, it's this or death. I'll get to that more later.

But let me clear this for you, US didn't do anything for China out of good will. China was seen as a counter weight to the Soviets, and then you saw great potential in helping China, what you didn't count on was China growing so powerful so soon.

We made sure we learnt from you guys yes, but even then your businesses still invested in droves, why? There is profits. Maybe it hasn't benefited everyone, but that's an American government problem, not ours. We can only help ourselves.

As to our abuses, if we didn't do these things we be forever under your thumb, even today your people are calling for boycotts and more, you think if we didn't learn and advance this quickly, these things wouldn't be possible? Iran is an example, and frankly we been under your embargo before and even today.

I'm not defending our actions or anything, BUT we must do what's best for us, and you do what's best for you, I'm sure all those companies knew what was happening one way or the other, but they didn't do anything or believed it, or believe they can stop it, out of GREED. That's not our problem.

You got what you wanted and we got what we wanted, like the harsh conditions set when WTO was opened, our leadership simply took a bad situation and made the best of it. Yours took a good one and made it much worse.

This is why in sports, the phrase is "that's why we play the games," because on paper everything is super.

Is it not China's turn to reciprocate? As I said before, instead of issuing some surreal and illogical statements about how Chinese domestic law prohibits US spying from international waters, China could merely have said the issue was under investigation. The US has no history of initiating violence with China--quite the opposite. We helped China in WWII. We opened trade to China under the tyrant Mao. We have sought greater interaction and transparency with the PLA through military exchanges and events like RIMPAC.

When China spies on RIMPAC, the US government is prosaic. China should reciprocate. As you say, there is little reason for us to be enemies, but friendliness does not mean a one-way stream of concessions by the US to China. I don't know why China feels the need to fabricate grievances to poison our relationship, but that's China's choice, not ours.

WW2, you didn't betray us, but you did do what's best for you, after all that's what we must do, refer to above. Why do you think Chang lost in the civil war? Battle of Shanghai, the first major battle, Chang lost half of his officer graduates, and all three of his elite German trained and equipped divisions. If you know him, you would know he mistrust the communists far more than Japan, and yet he put his best there, why?

He got some promises that if China proved itself America would come, but ultimately you didn't and retreated. This sounds like a conspiracy, but Chang's desire to preserve his troops is more than apparent in all of his campaigns except that one, and a few of speeches hinted at such help would take place.

Also WW2, you needed China to hold down some 1.2 million Japanese on the mainland, just like you needed Soviets to hold down the Germans. It's not a one way street.

Again I'm not blaming the US, if US didn't look out for its own interest and I was American, I would be furious. After all, it is your tax dollars at work, not ours.


As to Mao, you embargoed us, which didn't cause the great famines, but it didn't help and certainly contributed to a degree. You guys are still doing the same more or less to smaller countries today, if you don't believe me. It's not like it stopped. Also see previous, you wanted China on the anti Soviet bloc, tell me that was not a reason and if not the main reason for Nixon's visit.

You sought transparency, really, your pivot to Asia is still called not targeted at China, so tell me is it targeted at India, all the others are either your allies or too small to matter.

You are also embargoing us in the weapons trade, is that not true? Is that what you do to friends? You don't have to sell to us, but to embargo us is a signal that we don't see you as an equal.

Your TPP has countries left and right and below of China, but not China, so tell me, is that just a happy coincidence?

We are both looking out for our interests, for now, US needs to dominant the world to remain powerful, the minute your lose that dominance and countries would again choose different sides, that's the nature of diplomacy, as it has always been. See former Soviet bloc, Napoleon, and more.


You believe spying is within your limit of the law and it is, but if you are going to the law, don't expect good feelings too, if you truly wanted good relations you would not have done the spying.

If I do something to annoy you, you might not sue me, punch me or things like that, but I doubt you like me much. That's what's happening here, we can't do much to deter you and it is your "right," but some rights if exercised would not be good.

For example, I rented my house to another person, she used the "law" to push me on certain things, instead of talking to me and finding a middle ground, I may have tolerated that, but as soon as the 12 month was up, she was out the second it hit 12.

I don't know what you mean by holding China accountable without passing judgment, but still making China clean up its mess. We value the relationship with China and recognize the mutual benefits. We are therefore not going to embargo China or initiate military hostilities with China. As all the Chinese users here have demanded, we don't interfere (for the most part) with Chinese internal affairs.

Let me conclude by saying that I have a deep admiration for the Chinese people, their intelligence, ambition, and history. I deeply admire China's achievements over the last 30 years. But trust? What has China done for the US lately that would induce trust? Does China vote with us on the UNSC, or instead condemn our agenda? Does China commit military resources to stabilize the Arc of Instability, or does it instead condemn our imperialistic and war-mongering behavior, while simultaneously exploiting the stability we bring to extract resources for its own economy? Does China reform it's worst economic abuses, or continue to manipulate the RMB, steal IP, and fabricate anti-monopoly investigations against foreign firms, while simultaneously screaming at the US over our [partially China-induced] debt problems and attending reserve currency privileges?

BTW, you are embargoing us, what are you talking about?

I'm out of time for writing, let me ask you this last thing, did you do any of that out of the kindness of your heart or did you do it for gain.

You did it for gain, why can't we do the same, so our interests are now splitting, why should we compromise our interests for yours.

I am struggling here, so perhaps you can help me out. Why should the US trust China?

You shouldn't. But you should be preparing for the future, like us with "ghost" cities. We know how many people will move to the cities and we know more or less where, so we build for the future, some are empty, but most fill up in 4-6 years.

It's not pleasant today, but we don't feel worst effects later, see India, they don't build for the future, and their cities gets cramp and slums form, and the infrastructure can't keep up.

They don't have a ghost city problem, they got a no city problem, same deal here.


America is turning its head and shouting "I see nothing."

You should accommodate the current China not out of good will, but out of you can't contain us forever. How would Philippines and Vietnam react, when our three CBG is finished, when next gen cruisers and subs finish, when our future soldiers roll off the line in 2017ish, and when our air force starts to receive 5th gen fighters, hundreds of transport planes, oil planes, and more. This is just before 2020.

Do what you will, and we will do the same.

 

[sahaliyan]

I am also sorry to hear this, because it means that no matter what the US does, China will regard it with hostility. That is China's prerogative, of course, but it should not be surprised if this generates mistrust on our part, and consequent actions deriving from that mistrust.



I am on a mobile device, so I can't post it, but please look up the annual growth rates of China before the US established relations, and the annual growth rate after the US established relations (there is a Wikipedia article titled "Historical GDP of the People's Republic of China").

No doubt, the Chinese worked hard for their achievements, and China did this for itself. But until the US made the decision to integrate China into our system, Chinese hard work didn't accomplish nearly as much. I also don't believe that the Chinese who worked for the advancement of China pre-1972 were somehow inferior to the ubermenschen Chinese who entered the workforce post-1972. The main difference is the US.

That said, we both benefited, yes. It speaks volumes about the Chinese zero-sum mentality that it is seen as a negative for China that the US also benefited from this, or that the US is somehow insidious and malevolent for benefiting from this, or that the US had something to do with China's growth.

We have a communist system before 1979,in that system,everything based on the executive orders,not the market need,so it's not surprise the system didn't work well.
Now,it's we join the global economical system benefit for us,I don't deny this,but then again,we join this system,because we are benefit from this system,and you allow it because you benefit from our join,it's a fair deal,don't pretend like you give us something for no reason.

 

[TaiShang]

The last 30 years has been the story of the US integrating China into our system. We have opened trade to you, offshored our manufacturing to you, ignored your abuses (stealing IP, manipulating the RMB, protecting NK, etc.). From our perspective, we have already made the goodwill gestures. As you have already pointed out, China has benefitted enormously from this system. The problem is that China interprets this as US weakness, the sign of a declining power, and exploits the system until it is stopped. When we finally stop China, China announces that it has been insulted, and the US is trying to undermine China. China has just turned a win-win system into a zero-sum, only China wins system.

You have not helped China a bit; whatever China has achieved today, it is because of its own strategies, hard-working people, and efficient, pragmatist political system. Do not expect us to swallow US hostility on account of some people's historical romanticism.

What China does not like to hear is this very imperialist rhetoric of "we let/helped you grow so big" and "we tried to assimilate you into our mold of world governance; why become obstinate? Get integrate with this wonderful system and assimilate already into one of us Western order."

That won't help anything, won't change anything; so stop the imperialist mouth already; that's insulting.

If the US wants respect from China (not servitude; China will do everything in its own way, whether this appears weird to you does not concern us), just stop this manifest destiny policy, retreat into your national borders, and stop bullying others.

You will definitely not do that; hence, let's cut short of the hypocrisy.

Whatever magnanimous act you have been doing for China's favor, take them all back. Our system and understanding of the world will not copy/imitate yours.

If you are so good-willed, just agree to come under Chinese-designed world order. Then, China will be magnanimous to let you enjoy the fruits of development. We promise that.

 

[LeveragedBuyout]

We have a communist system before 1979,in that system,everything based on the executive orders,not the market need,so it's not surprise the system didn't work well.
Now,it's we join the global economical system benefit for us,I don't deny this,but then again,we join this system,because we are benefit from this system,and you allow it because you benefit from our join,it's a fair deal,don't pretend like you give us something for no reason.

No one is claiming that the US helped China out of pure benevolence. However, one of us seems to be claiming that the US did not help China, or that China would be the economic behemoth that it is today without the US.

In this Orwellian world, where Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia, it's easy to understand why China is hostile to the US. However, in the real world, it is not easy to understand why China is hostile to the US.

China isn't trying to turn it into a zero sum, but due to circumstances, it's this or death. I'll get to that more later.

But let me clear this for you, US didn't do anything for China out of good will. China was seen as a counter weight to the Soviets, and then you saw great potential in helping China, what you didn't count on was China growing so powerful so soon.

We made sure we learnt from you guys yes, but even then your businesses still invested in droves, why? There is profits. Maybe it hasn't benefited everyone, but that's an American government problem, not ours. We can only help ourselves.

As to our abuses, if we didn't do these things we be forever under your thumb, even today your people are calling for boycotts and more, you think if we didn't learn and advance this quickly, these things wouldn't be possible? Iran is an example, and frankly we been under your embargo before and even today.

I'm not defending our actions or anything, BUT we must do what's best for us, and you do what's best for you, I'm sure all those companies knew what was happening one way or the other, but they didn't do anything or believed it, or believe they can stop it, out of GREED. That's not our problem.

You got what you wanted and we got what we wanted, like the harsh conditions set when WTO was opened, our leadership simply took a bad situation and made the best of it. Yours took a good one and made it much worse.

This is why in sports, the phrase is "that's why we play the games," because on paper everything is super.




WW2, you didn't betray us, but you did do what's best for you, after all that's what we must do, refer to above. Why do you think Chang lost in the civil war? Battle of Shanghai, the first major battle, Chang lost half of his officer graduates, and all three of his elite German trained and equipped divisions. If you know him, you would know he mistrust the communists far more than Japan, and yet he put his best there, why?

He got some promises that if China proved itself America would come, but ultimately you didn't and retreated. This sounds like a conspiracy, but Chang's desire to preserve his troops is more than apparent in all of his campaigns except that one, and a few of speeches hinted at such help would take place.

Also WW2, you needed China to hold down some 1.2 million Japanese on the mainland, just like you needed Soviets to hold down the Germans. It's not a one way street.

Again I'm not blaming the US, if US didn't look out for its own interest and I was American, I would be furious. After all, it is your tax dollars at work, not ours.


As to Mao, you embargoed us, which didn't cause the great famines, but it didn't help and certainly contributed to a degree. You guys are still doing the same more or less to smaller countries today, if you don't believe me. It's not like it stopped. Also see previous, you wanted China on the anti Soviet bloc, tell me that was not a reason and if not the main reason for Nixon's visit.

You sought transparency, really, your pivot to Asia is still called not targeted at China, so tell me is it targeted at India, all the others are either your allies or too small to matter.

You are also embargoing us in the weapons trade, is that not true? Is that what you do to friends? You don't have to sell to us, but to embargo us is a signal that we don't see you as an equal.

Your TPP has countries left and right and below of China, but not China, so tell me, is that just a happy coincidence?

We are both looking out for our interests, for now, US needs to dominant the world to remain powerful, the minute your lose that dominance and countries would again choose different sides, that's the nature of diplomacy, as it has always been. See former Soviet bloc, Napoleon, and more.


You believe spying is within your limit of the law and it is, but if you are going to the law, don't expect good feelings too, if you truly wanted good relations you would not have done the spying.

If I do something to annoy you, you might not sue me, punch me or things like that, but I doubt you like me much. That's what's happening here, we can't do much to deter you and it is your "right," but some rights if exercised would not be good.

For example, I rented my house to another person, she used the "law" to push me on certain things, instead of talking to me and finding a middle ground, I may have tolerated that, but as soon as the 12 month was up, she was out the second it hit 12.



BTW, you are embargoing us, what are you talking about?

I'm out of time for writing, let me ask you this last thing, did you do any of that out of the kindness of your heart or did you do it for gain.

You did it for gain, why can't we do the same, so our interests are now splitting, why should we compromise our interests for yours.


You shouldn't. But you should be preparing for the future, like us with "ghost" cities. We know how many people will move to the cities and we know more or less where, so we build for the future, some are empty, but most fill up in 4-6 years.

It's not pleasant today, but we don't feel worst effects later, see India, they don't build for the future, and their cities gets cramp and slums form, and the infrastructure can't keep up.

They don't have a ghost city problem, they got a no city problem, same deal here.


America is turning its head and shouting "I see nothing."

You should accommodate the current China not out of good will, but out of you can't contain us forever. How would Philippines and Vietnam react, when our three CBG is finished, when next gen cruisers and subs finish, when our future soldiers roll off the line in 2017ish, and when our air force starts to receive 5th gen fighters, hundreds of transport planes, oil planes, and more. This is just before 2020.

Do what you will, and we will do the same.

Again, this seems to be a cultural difference. The US loves synergy, ie win-win. China appears to regard such scenarios with deep suspicion (eg Sahalian and your discounting of US benevolence because we also benefited from it), and sees the world through a zero-sum game (eg your conclusion that the US should allow China to abuse the system as much as it likes, to our own detriment, because China's dominance is inevitable).

Therefore, I will fall back on the "agree to disagree" line. Thanks for the informative discussion.

 

[Aepsilons]

The last 30 years has been the story of the US integrating China into our system. We have opened trade to you, offshored our manufacturing to you, ignored your abuses (stealing IP, manipulating the RMB, protecting NK, etc.). From our perspective, we have already made the goodwill gestures. As you have already pointed out, China has benefitted enormously from this system. The problem is that China interprets this as US weakness, the sign of a declining power, and exploits the system until it is stopped. When we finally stop China, China announces that it has been insulted, and the US is trying to undermine China. China has just turned a win-win system into a zero-sum, only China wins system.

Is it not China's turn to reciprocate? As I said before, instead of issuing some surreal and illogical statements about how Chinese domestic law prohibits US spying from international waters, China could merely have said the issue was under investigation. The US has no history of initiating violence with China--quite the opposite. We helped China in WWII. We opened trade to China under the tyrant Mao. We have sought greater interaction and transparency with the PLA through military exchanges and events like RIMPAC.

When China spies on RIMPAC, the US government is prosaic. China should reciprocate. As you say, there is little reason for us to be enemies, but friendliness does not mean a one-way stream of concessions by the US to China. I don't know why China feels the need to fabricate grievances to poison our relationship, but that's China's choice, not ours.

I don't know what you mean by holding China accountable without passing judgment, but still making China clean up its mess. We value the relationship with China and recognize the mutual benefits. We are therefore not going to embargo China or initiate military hostilities with China. As all the Chinese users here have demanded, we don't interfere (for the most part) with Chinese internal affairs.

Let me conclude by saying that I have a deep admiration for the Chinese people, their intelligence, ambition, and history. I deeply admire China's achievements over the last 30 years. But trust? What has China done for the US lately that would induce trust? Does China vote with us on the UNSC, or instead condemn our agenda? Does China commit military resources to stabilize the Arc of Instability, or does it instead condemn our imperialistic and war-mongering behavior, while simultaneously exploiting the stability we bring to extract resources for its own economy? Does China reform its worst economic abuses, or continue to manipulate the RMB, steal IP, and fabricate anti-monopoly investigations against foreign firms, while simultaneously screaming at the US over our [partially China-induced] debt problems and attending reserve currency privileges?

I am struggling here, so perhaps you can help me out. Why should the US trust China?



Trust, but verify.
-Ronald Reagan

We all spy on each other. What we don't all do is risk conflagration by sending out incompetent pilots to accidentally become kamikaze pilots for the second time in 13 years. 2001? Plausible accident. A second event?

Fool me once, shame on you. Won't get fooled again.
-George W. Bush

Very eloquently and thoroughly said, good Sir.