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U.S Presidential Elections

There are two ways to pay off the debt:

- Raise taxes.

- Raise income.

For the second option, the tax rate remains the same but because there is now more of the income the final tax amount is increased. The first option is easy: Just pass a law saying so. The second option is more problematic because it require a higher understanding of economics, be amenable to business, and a willingness to be patient.

The first option is more reliable because you already know people's income figures from their tax returns, so the increased revenue resulting from higher tax rates can be forecast with more certainty. There is a chance that some business may fold or lay off people when margins gets squeezed, but the reality is that most businesses have much more slack than they admit.

With the second approach, there is an underlying assumption that if people are allowed to keep more of their money (by reducing tax rates), then they will invest that money into expanding the business. There is no guarantee that that will happen, since they could just as easily use that money to splurge. When the Australian government sent out checks to spur the economy during the GFC, much of the money was spent on foreign goods and foreign vacations.
 
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The first option is more reliable because you already know people's income figures from their tax returns, so the increased revenue resulting from higher tax rates can be forecast with more certainty. There is a chance that some business may fold or lay off people when margins gets squeezed, but the reality is that most businesses have much more slack than they admit.

With the second approach, there is an underlying assumption that if people are allowed to keep more of their money (by reducing tax rates), then they will invest that money into expanding the business. There is no guarantee that that will happen, since they could just as easily use that money to splurge. When the Australian government sent out checks to spur the economy during the GFC, much of the money was spent on foreign goods and foreign vacations.
So what if they splurge? But think about it for a few moments...By spending, they are injecting capital back into the economy. Whether a foreign entity benefit or not, that capital must first pass through native hands. Even hoarding can still be beneficial because banks will use those deposits to finance assorted projects. The only hoarding that will deny the economy money is by burying cash in the backyard.
 
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This is perhaps getting off topic but...may be relevant.
I respect your POV. There is most probably a lot of truth in what you say. And I am as 'liberal' as you can get. Some of friends have even called me a 'socialist'. One jokingly called me a 'commie ba$tard!'.
We, the have-nots, demonize the ultra rich while playing lottery all our lives to join the rich. How would we behave if had $100 million in assets? Probably do what most of the rich people do: Move to more posh neighborhoods, live in 'gated communities', and vacation along 'exclusive beaches'.
Your income does not need to have nine zeros in order for you to live among 'the rich'. Just six zeros will do and an engineer section lead can put his family in that gated community.

I always have a problem with the phrases 'haves' and 'have nots'. I live within walking distance of two millionaires in my neighborhood. If I have a dog and exercise him daily, then I would be within 3 millionaires. Anyway...If any of the millionaires fill up his swimming pool, does that somehow take water away from my bathtub? That is not how wealth works.

So if water was not taken away from YOUR bathtub by a millionaire somewhere in your city, why does that give you the latitude to demonize him just because he is wealthier than you? Not the 'right', but the latitude. You still have water to get clean, drink, cook, and for your potted plants. Why are you complaining about him? So what if the millionaire have his a private jet to the Bahamas vacation? Did that private jet somehow took away your freedom to fly, even coach class, to the same destination?

Pitting 'the haves' against 'the have nots' usually unjustifiably is about fomenting crass class warfare via the base human feeling of envy and through the expression of jealousy.
 
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Your income does not need to have nine zeros in order for you to live among 'the rich'. Just six zeros will do and an engineer section lead can put his family in that gated community.

I always have a problem with the phrases 'haves' and 'have nots'. I live within walking distance of two millionaires in my neighborhood. If I have a dog and exercise him daily, then I would be within 3 millionaires. Anyway...If any of the millionaires fill up his swimming pool, does that somehow take water away from my bathtub? That is not how wealth works.

So if water was not taken away from YOUR bathtub by a millionaire somewhere in your city, why does that give you the latitude to demonize him just because he is wealthier than you? Not the 'right', but the latitude. You still have water to get clean, drink, cook, and for your potted plants. Why are you complaining about him? So what if the millionaire have his a private jet to the Bahamas vacation? Did that private jet somehow took away your freedom to fly, even coach class, to the same destination?

Pitting 'the haves' against 'the have nots' usually unjustifiably is about fomenting crass class warfare via the base human feeling of envy and through the expression of jealousy.

Go get a job you clown.

Coming here writing freaking paragraphs 24/7.
 
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So what if they splurge? But think about it for a few moments...By spending, they are injecting capital back into the economy. Whether a foreign entity benefit or not, that capital must first pass through native hands. Even hoarding can still be beneficial because banks will use those deposits to finance assorted projects. The only hoarding that will deny the economy money is by burying cash in the backyard.

That was the whole point. When people buy foreign goods, the only benefit to the local economy is the meager percentage of a middleman. And when they spend it on foreign vacations, there is precious little local benefit at all.

The supply siders assume that the extra residual income will be injected into the local economy, but there is no guarantee.

P.S. I am not defending high taxes. I believe that government introduces so many levels of inefficiency and overhead that the money can be better used by the private sector directly. However, a balance needs to be found, as in everything else.
 
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This is a military oriented forum. I am veteran of the world's most powerful military of the world's most powerful country. You are a conscript reject of a military struggling to reform itself while awash with corruption.

I have a real job in a field -- semiconductor manufacturing -- that your China is still behind in technology, innovation, and expertise. My house is large enough that 2 or even 3 of your family's generations can live in.

So who is really the cripple trying to walk, let alone dance, now? :lol:

For a guy that has a job, you sure are on PDF ALOT!

I call bullsh*t on your 'job' and your military 'service'.

I think it's safe to say you are an old unemployed bum with no wife and no job.

That proves why you are on PDF 24/7 writing page long paragraphs.
THAT IS A GUY WITH TOO MUCH TIME ON YOUR HANDS!

Regarding most powerful military.....you mean the same military that got humiliated in the Korean War and Vietnam war?
You sir have been successfully brainwashed by the American propaganda machine.

I bet you haven't even seen a real fighter jet let alone touch one.

I HIGHLY doubt you live in your own house let alone live in a big house.

Fantasize more mate, you will go crazy if you don't.
 
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Go get a job you clown.

Coming here writing freaking paragraphs 24/7.

and

For a guy that has a job, you sure are on PDF ALOT!

I call bullsh*t on your 'job' and your military 'service'.

I think it's safe to say you are an old unemployed bum with no wife and no job.

That proves why you are on PDF 24/7 writing page long paragraphs.
THAT IS A GUY WITH TOO MUCH TIME ON YOUR HANDS!

Regarding most powerful military.....you mean the same military that got humiliated in the Korean War and Vietnam war?
You sir have been successfully brainwashed by the American propaganda machine.

I bet you haven't even seen a real fighter jet let alone touch one.

I HIGHLY doubt you live in your own house let alone live in a big house.

Fantasize more mate, you will go crazy if you don't.



This guy can't respond intelligently and so goes on juvenile rants. :rolleyes:
 
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That was the whole point. When people buy foreign goods, the only benefit to the local economy is the meager percentage of a middleman. And when they spend it on foreign vacations, there is precious little local benefit at all.

The supply siders assume that the extra residual income will be injected into the local economy, but there is no guarantee.

P.S. I am not defending high taxes. I believe that government introduces so many levels of inefficiency and overhead that the money can be better used by the private sector directly. However, a balance needs to be found, as in everything else.
In trying to defend your argument, you are treading into the absurd here. Most people, when they have extra income, especially the kind earned through their jobs and the amount is not extravagant like the kind a lower tax rate bring, usually spend it on themselves on necessities, small personal luxuries, or additional savings. And so what if some do spend outside the local economy? Your example of whatever the Australian government did to stimulate growth via giving the citizens the equivalent of a 'holiday bonus' was short term and as such, many are going to spend it extravagantly. A lowered tax rate from the government is the opposite of a pay increase from one's employer but the effect is the same: Higher take home pay. And that mean the higher income amount is usually less than %10 of gross and long term. No one is going to take an overseas vacation every weekend with that kind of money. So for what little they gained, what and where else are they going to spend it on except the local economy?
 
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Not if Hillary Clinton runs, her husband has been pushing her too.

I'm pretty sure she will and if, it will be very difficult for the Republicans to find someone to counter her.

Oh oh, the Dow plunges more than 170 points at the first opening session after Obama's win. Guess what the big moneys are thinking.

Not because of Obama, but because of the Republicans in the Congress might still follow their blocking policies and that's the worse that could happen for America.

You have not showed anything. If raising taxes on the rich will not pay off the debt, then what did you mean by saying Obama understood how to resolve the debt? By raising taxes on everyone?

Raising taxes for the 1% is only a part of the solution and only for the short term, because you can't even get the next budget balanced otherwise, with the result of a recession. That again means dramatic budget cuts and tax increases for everyone in the US as the only solution!
You still didn't understand that, like many in your country and that's the problem, because Americans are not used to think about the consequences of your behaviour.
Again, you have no choice but reduce the spending in the mid to long term to reduce the dept, while infrastructure and economy must be strengthened by the government on the other side. Simply raising taxes in a time where you have less people in jobs that can pay taxes and your economy is slowly coming back from the financial crisis is not a solution!

What good is this if policies are filled regulations that hindered businesses?

It creates jobs on the lower end, which translates into more tax payers as well, so more tax revenue without increasing taxes for all! It speeds up transportations and logistics, which makes your industies to be more effective and competitive compared to others in the world, that translates into better economy, which again means more more tax revenue without increasing taxes for all!

Then why did Obama focused on health care which while does need reform, spending cuts and economic recovery are the more immediate needs? How does this make sense, increase spending then cry about not having enough money?

Spending is not = spending, you have necessary spending and unnecessary spending! Spending billions for 2 useless wars, or for huge numbers of troops in countries where they are not needed anymore is unnecessary spending. Obama achieved more wrt getting those who were responsible for 9/11 in 4 years and with waaaaay less spendings, than the former government. Ending these useless wars and getting back the troops, reduces the spendings, which again helps to reduce the dept. While Romney wanted to do exactly the opposite!

Improving the quality of living, by increasing health care and education budgets, improving infrastructure and reducing taxes for the lower and middle class on the other hand are necessary spending, especially when you were far behind in these fields in a global comparison, even behind many way less educated countries. That alone should make clear that the earlier policies of de-regulations didn't helped you, but made it even worse. Poverty increasing, education level droping, more industries loosing compared to foreign counterparts, more US companies moving production to foreign countries...
All this made America weaker, not stronger!


I lived under my means and that is what responsible people should do. And yet people with high credit scores but low cash reserves were able to purchase homes, pay only interests

Exactly and how was it possible that these people got these cheap loans, that normally never should have been granted? Because of your insanely de-regulated banking sector, that wanted to make more and more money, by selling more and more cheap loans and diverting these bad loans to other banks again. This bubble had to blow up someday, because everybody only took high risks and didn't thought about the consequences.

So you should blame those, that made these de-regulations possible, you should blame those bankers that got big bonuses when they sold poor people cheap loans, because these people are still living on the good side, because they didn't lost their homes, or have to suffer now and not those how were blinded by greedy bankers with "the american dream" that anybody can own a house!


Btw, India was often criticized by US officials and bankers, because of the regulations in the banking sector, but exactly these regulations were the reason why India was not as badly effected by the financial crisis that you have created. Otherwise we would face the same problems like the Europeans now. Where even countries that had a good dept to groth ratio like Spain, are now in deep trouble, because they have to bail out several of their banks, that bought the bad loans from the US and invested in these cheap loans as well.

High risks and de-regulations only feeds the greed of the 1%, while the 99% have to pay for the consequences at the end and today the whole world suffers because of US de-regulations. If you get into a recession it will be even worse, so if you want to do something, put some pressure on the Republicans, to finally start helping your country by working with THE US PRESIDENT, because that will help the world as well!!!
 
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I don't know about Fox News, but many pundits, including Republicans, are saying that the crucial factor in this race was the Latino vote. That's going to be a quandary for the Republicans. On the one hand, they are right on principle that illegal immigration should not be rewarded, but the demographic shift has already occurred and Republicans will need to accept that reality. Once they can bite the bullet and get past that issue, they might have a chance since Latinos tend to be socially conservative.
 
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republicans have cowboy attitude they are stupid war mongers

whereas democrat obama is cold blooded,arrogant and very clever man who came on slogan of change but did exactly the opposite

he bailed out the big banks

received noble piece prize but started proxy wars in libya,syria and drones in pakistan and yemen
sent more tropes in afghanistan

after democratically elected he went to dictator hosni mubark in egypt with peace message towards muslims and then instigate so called arab spring to change regimes

has destabilized whole of middle east and dragged turkey in at now turkey will become another 80s and 2000s proxy and destabilized country like pakistan

has further destabilized afghanistan and pakistan

blatantly as president of a country lie in front of whole world that raymond davis is a diplomat and not a spy

escalating tensions in pacific ocean with china

u turn on Guantanamo gail closing

he is arrogant,cool blooded,very clever and liar who dose not faces second term God knows what he will bring to the world now



some info on us elections

in terms of electoral votes obama got 303 and romney got 206 electoral votes

obama got 60,782,354 votes
romney got 57,884,882 votes

obama won by 2 million votes and got 33% of total votes in USA(not casted but total)

turnout was 50% even less than 2008 elections

source cnn
Election Results - 2012 Election Center - Elections & Politics from CNN.com
 
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20121117_woc435.png
 
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I don't know about Fox News, but many pundits, including Republicans, are saying that the crucial factor in this race was the Latino vote. That's going to be a quandary for the Republicans. On the one hand, they are right on principle that illegal immigration should not be rewarded, but the demographic shift has already occurred and Republicans will need to accept that reality. Once they can bite the bullet and get past that issue, they might have a chance since Latinos tend to be socially conservative.

It was and here is why - in NV which was one of the swing states,

2004 - Republicans won that state
2008 - Obama won the state getting 55% of the total votes, Latino votes were 15% of the total votes
2012 - Obama won the state getting 52.3% of the total votes while Romney got 45.7%, Latino votes were 18% of the total votes(a 3% increase)

So inspite of Obama being the incumbent, he won in NV. So unless Republicans update their policies to reflect the 21st century, the chances are they will become something like Whig party and will be history.
 
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It was and here is why - in NV which was one of the swing states,

2004 - Republicans won that state
2008 - Obama won the state getting 55% of the total votes, Latino votes were 15% of the total votes
2012 - Obama won the state getting 52.3% of the total votes while Romney got 45.7%, Latino votes were 18% of the total votes(a 3% increase)

So inspite of Obama being the incumbent, he won in NV. So unless Republicans update their policies to reflect the 21st century, the chances are they will become something like Whig party and will be history.

I do not remember who it was on this thread but someone said the Latinos have no clout in US elections. Once again I was right in asserting otherwise. :victory:
 
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