U.S. committed to providing best defense technology to India: Leon Panetta

[sancho]

Be realistic- no one else can offer an Attack helo as advanced and survivable as the Apache, no MPA as advanced and capable as the P-8I, no Heavy lift helo as versitle and capable as the CH-47F, no Heavy lifter as advanced and versatile as the C-17, no medium lifter for Spec Ops as cabable as the C-130J in its role within the IAF.


It is simple logic- the US spends close to $100 BN/year on military R&D and close to $1 TN/year on military- they have invested so heavily in defence and reaps the results.

You are overestimating things again. A C17 is just a transport aircraft, an Apache is just an attack helicopter and a P8I is just an MPA, they might have certain advantages, but still these kind of arms and techs are available from other alternatives too. By your logic we must have bought F18SH, or Sikorsky S92, or the sister of the P8, the 737 Wedgtail AWACS, but we didn't and that because we have alternatives. Sometimes they are better, sometimes they are not and paying the most money for a development doesn't mean the outcome is the best as well, see Eurofighter, V22, or the Comanche helicopter. Great aircrafts with a lot of advantages, but way too costly and sometimes even hardly useful in operational service.

But as explained, there are no alternatives to the political benefits they offered us and that's what really makes this relation important for us. As long as we stay alert and don't let them fool us with their propaganda, we can benefit a lot!

 

[sancho]

Being non aligned will never work out for us in the long run......we are being too short sighted. Our enemies put aside their differences and what we will do then? Run and back for alliances or plz help supply our miitary ammo? No, time to let bygones be bygones, being direct, honest, and put your concerns and interests forward. India and the US can take this relationship to the stars if they wish to, it depends on the will of the ppl and our govt to work that angle and build trust.

The past decades prove you wrong, because Indias non aligned is the key reason why we have such success in foreign politics, economics in the last decades and today even in defence relations, see the US!
There is no reason for India to bound itself to policies and follow countries like the US to any wrong war, we are independent and strong enough to defend ourselfs and that gives us more than enough friends that would help us in war times. Thanks to the increased success in foreign relationships in the past years (mainly because of MMS btw), we have more countries in the world that supports India and looking for deeper ties than we had during the war and sanction time in the late 90s, early 2000s.
India today is a major power, but India is also different from comparable powers like US, UK, France, or Russia in the past. Our concern is not to project our power all over the world, we want to defend our borderlines and the areas around India mainly, because unlike these countries, we have the biggest threats on the other side of the border, not several thousands Km away.

The US are not looking at India as a friend, they are looking at India as a country with a common enemy, China. They need India to balance the power in Asia in the long term and that made them even to turn down Pakistan to some extend, because India is more important for their future interests than Pakistan.
If you follow the defence related news it gets more and more obvious, that the US are preparing to counter China in with full power, be it increasing defence relations with Philippines that feels threatens from PLAN, be it placing additional naval forces in Australia, or these recent reports:

Leon Panetta: US to deploy 60% of navy fleet to Pacific

The US is planning to move the majority of its warships to the Asia-Pacific region by 2020, Defence Secretary Leon Panetta has revealed. He said that by 2020 about 60% of the US fleet would be deployed there, in the clearest indication yet of the new US strategy in Asia....

BBC News - Leon Panetta: US to deploy 60% of navy fleet to Pacific


Getting us on their side to cover the Indian Ocean area, or to open a 2nd front is tactically important for them and that's why they opend their defence markets and increased exercises and relations to us. Friendship, trust, or seeing each other on the same level has nothing to do with it and even long allies like the UK, Australia, Canada learned that the hard way too.

 

[Abingdonboy]

You are overestimating things again. A C17 is just a transport aircraft, an Apache is just an attack helicopter and a P8I is just an MPA, they might have certain advantages, but still these kind of arms and techs are available from other alternatives too. By your logic we must have bought F18SH, or Sikorsky S92, or the sister of the P8, the 737 Wedgtail AWACS, but we didn't and that because we have alternatives. Sometimes they are better, sometimes they are not and paying the most money for a development doesn't mean the outcome is the best as well, see Eurofighter, V22, or the Comanche helicopter. Great aircrafts with a lot of advantages, but way too costly and sometimes even hardly useful in operational service.

But as explained, there are no alternatives to the political benefits they offered us and that's what really makes this relation important for us. As long as we stay alert and don't let them fool us with their propaganda, we can benefit a lot!

I'm not saying ALL US tech is the best nor just by being American the implication is the tech is the best and unparalleled. But the equipment India has bought from the US is the best in their respective fields be it MPA, Attack helo etc and for the most part this is because the Indian forces conducted evaluations of their own needs and then matched these needs with the equipment that best meet this, in many cases the equipment was American- sometimes it was not ie MMRCA. Of course there are alternatives but in the specific examples I have given they are not as good. Of course politics play their part but I personally see a lot of practical logic behind the descions- the US gear India is getting IS the best such kit on offer to India.

 

[cyphercide]

I'm not saying ALL US tech is the best nor just by being American the implication is the tech is the best and unparalleled. But the equipment India has bought from the US is the best in their respective fields be it MPA, Attack helo etc and for the most part this is because the Indian forces conducted evaluations of their own needs and then matched these needs with the equipment that best meet this, in many cases the equipment was American- sometimes it was not ie MMRCA. Of course there are alternatives but in the specific examples I have given they are not as good. Of course politics play their part but I personally see a lot of practical logic behind the descions- the US gear India is getting IS the best such kit on offer to India.

Comes at a price-tag too.Consider the CISMOA agreement or the American mandated inspections on assets already sold to India.

Sancho is simply talking logistics brother....

 

[Abingdonboy]

Comes at a price-tag too.Consider the CISMOA agreement or the American mandated inspections on assets already sold to India.

Sancho is simply talking logistics brother....

As far as I know India hasn't signed the CISMOA, LSA, BECA or any other aggrement with the US. This has resulted in certain equipment being omitted from ordered platforms but this is no issue as India can and is fitting suitable alternatives to bridge the gap. And if you want the best tech sometimes you have to pay a price be it monetary or otherwise. National security is a priorty so if some things have to be traded-off as a result- so be it. Having said that, like is said, right now AFAIK India hasn't signed any such deal and strategic assets haven't been procured from US like fighters and ships only patrol assets and logistical support elements.As such Indian exposure to harmful affects of possible future sanctions is considerably less than it could be.



I would like to see the day when India doesn't need to go to outsiders to get the best tech but that is not the current situation- one day though............

 

[cyphercide]

As far as I know India hasn't signed the CISMOA, LSA, BECA or any other aggrement with the US. This has resulted in certain equipment being omitted from ordered platforms but this is no issue as India can and is fitting suitable alternatives to bridge the gap. And if you want the best tech sometimes you have to pay a price be it monetary or otherwise. National security is a priorty so if some things have to be traded-off as a result- so be it. Having said that, like is said, right now AFAIK India hasn't signed any such deal and strategic assets haven't been procured from US like fighters and ships only patrol assets and logistical support elements.As such Indian exposure to harmful affects of possible future sanctions is considerably less than it could be.



I would like to see the day when India doesn't need to go to outsiders to get the best tech but that is not the current situation- one day though............

You are going to see arm twisting from the American side in the near future for every possible military deal.That isn't as much of a predicament if India's procurement process hadn't been so inept.Delays from the supplier side will set us back by years if not decades.

Hence,we need to talk logistics and not individual assets.

 

[sancho]

I'm not saying ALL US tech is the best nor just by being American the implication is the tech is the best and unparalleled. But the equipment India has bought from the US is the best in their respective fields be it MPA, Attack helo etc and for the most part this is because the Indian forces conducted evaluations of their own needs and then matched these needs with the equipment that best meet this, in many cases the equipment was American- sometimes it was not ie MMRCA. Of course there are alternatives but in the specific examples I have given they are not as good. Of course politics play their part but I personally see a lot of practical logic behind the descions- the US gear India is getting IS the best such kit on offer to India.

The C17 is not the best transport aircraft, that's the AN 124 or the C5, that's why even the US mainly use these heavy beasts in war times to transport their tanks or heavy equipment. A C17 in this case is simply not capable enough, because it can carry just a single tank. What makes the C17 good are certain capabilities, but that doesn't mean it is the only useful aircraft and we had no alternatives. The latest IL 76 versions offer many similar advantages too, but the main disadvantage is still the cargohold size, which makes it less capable as the C17 and not the payload, or short take off and landing capability like many people confuse. Similarly, the Apache Block 3 offers great avionics improvements but still is just an attack helicopter like many others. The latest Cobra versions have high ammounts of commonality in terms of weapons, weapon carrying capabability or even avionics, so will be as useful in the same roles as the Apache. The currently most advanced versions might even be the Israeli and British Apaches, because they added several other techs and capabilities the US don't have yet as well. So all in all, they are indeed good, but not the only alternative we have to get the same for our forces, especially when we keep in mind that we are only a normal export customer that don't get the same stuff as the US forces!

I would like to see the day when India doesn't need to go to outsiders to get the best tech but that is not the current situation- one day though............

Buddy, even the US is buying arms and techs from other countries like Israel or some European countries. There is no country in the world that is the best in all fields, so if you always want the best, you have to go to other countries.
Personally I don't even have a problem with that, the important part is to stay independent, be it with buying stuff from reliable partners, or even better to form JV or co-developments, besides indigenous developments. The mix is the key to make India strong and not just one limiting route!

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Dont get too happy indians!! US has a history of using other countries for its own benefits and abandoning them once the interest is acheived. Im sure most of u would know that!!

meh!! let em learn.

there was a point in time when in western media india was the villain and Pakistan was the cold war ally and darling.....roles have switched. Now we are apparently the villains, indian are the darlings.

meanwhile it's election season in Washington, and concurrently the Americans are trying to provoke Pakistan into opening the supply lines.....everyone knows what that entails.


nothing personal or something to get emotional over......strictly business, failed pressure tactics and geo-politics at play


as far as defence is concerned, we've slowly moved toward indigenization where and when we can; we've also cooperated closely with China in this sector and there is much to show for that (e.g. JF-17 Thunder).

I think after we got a "gauging" of our own (in the form of F-16s we paid for which never were received) we've learned well how the Americans do business with developing countries.

 

[Abingdonboy]

The C17 is not the best transport aircraft, that's the AN 124 or the C5, that's why even the US mainly use these heavy beasts in war times to transport their tanks or heavy equipment. A C17 in this case is simply not capable enough, because it can carry just a single tank. What makes the C17 good are certain capabilities, but that doesn't mean it is the only useful aircraft and we had no alternatives. The latest IL 76 versions offer many similar advantages too, but the main disadvantage is still the cargohold size, which makes it less capable as the C17 and not the payload, or short take off and landing capability like many people confuse. Similarly, the Apache Block 3 offers great avionics improvements but still is just an attack helicopter like many others. The latest Cobra versions have high ammounts of commonality in terms of weapons, weapon carrying capabability or even avionics, so will be as useful in the same roles as the Apache. The currently most advanced versions might even be the Israeli and British Apaches, because they added several other techs and capabilities the US don't have yet as well. So all in all, they are indeed good, but not the only alternative we have to get the same for our forces, especially when we keep in mind that we are only a normal export customer that don't get the same stuff as the US forces!

Well it depends on how you define "best" if it is by payload then yes the An-124 and C5-Galaxy do score higher. But in terms of what the IAF needed- a heavy lifter capable of STOL on unpaved runways, this is unparreled- 77 tons anywhere in India. The An-124 and C5 will get nowhere near the frontline and are nowhere near as versitile as the C-17 which can take its load right upto the front line.But this is very much a similar debate to the Mi-26 vs CH-47F debate and I think I can remember you views on that! At the end of the day it is the users who dictate what they want and the Indian forces are pure professionalis who know what they want and decide what is best for them and in these cases it is certain US kit.


Simiarly, there be alternatives and commanlity with others, but the AH-64D BLK.III is unquestionably the best attack helo on the planet, if not please tell me a superior one. The Isrealis and Brits may have custimised their versions but they are based on older versions of the Apache (A/D Blk.I/II) and India will be one of the first few to operate the Blk.III.



See the step up between the older versions and Blk.III:

+it's a bit of a moot point anyway saying the Israeli/UK versions of Apache are better than US (which is not true in relation to latest US BLK.III anyway) but even still India would have to have gone through the US to get their Apaches not Israel or UK.

 

[DelhiDareDevil]

meh!! let em learn.

there was a point in time when in western media india was the villain and Pakistan was the cold war ally and darling.....roles have switched. Now we are apparently the villains, indian are the darlings.

meanwhile it's election season in Washington, and concurrently the Americans are trying to provoke Pakistan into opening the supply lines.....everyone knows what that entails.


nothing personal or something to get emotional over......strictly business, failed pressure tactics and geo-politics at play


as far as defence is concerned, we've slowly moved toward indigenization where and when we can; we've also cooperated closely with China in this sector and there is much to show for that (e.g. JF-17 Thunder).

I think after we got a "gauging" of our own (in the form of F-16s we paid for which never were received) we've learned well how the Americans do business with developing countries.

India is to strong to go down the path of USA-Pakistan did 40 years ago.

India and USA relationship would be based on UK-USA relationship type.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

India is to strong to go down the path of USA-Pakistan did 40 years ago.

i'd tread a bit more cautiously than that, but good luck anyhow and enjoy

the Americans look after their own interests first even if they have to trample on 40 others.....that's their modus-operandi and always has been. Hard not to respect that -- that's what all countries are supposed to do. If only our leaders did the same.

India and USA relationship would be based on UK-USA relationship type.

sounds more like wishful thinking.....tell that to the daughter of your (former?) consul general in New York

 

[MightyDragon]

I guess USA will sell latest defensive missile to India, of course in very high price
Remember the previous time what planes USA opt for MRCA: F-16In, F/A-18E/F...

 

[Mercenary]

Dont get too happy indians!! US has a history of using other countries for its own benefits and abandoning them once the interest is acheived. Im sure most of u would know that!!

Besides Pakistan which other countries has USA abandoned?

 

[trinity]

The past decades prove you wrong, because Indias non aligned is the key reason why we have such success in foreign politics, economics in the last decades and today even in defence relations, see the US!
There is no reason for India to bound itself to policies and follow countries like the US to any wrong war, we are independent and strong enough to defend ourselfs and that gives us more than enough friends that would help us in war times. Thanks to the increased success in foreign relationships in the past years (mainly because of MMS btw), we have more countries in the world that supports India and looking for deeper ties than we had during the war and sanction time in the late 90s, early 2000s.
India today is a major power, but India is also different from comparable powers like US, UK, France, or Russia in the past. Our concern is not to project our power all over the world, we want to defend our borderlines and the areas around India mainly, because unlike these countries, we have the biggest threats on the other side of the border, not several thousands Km away.

The US are not looking at India as a friend, they are looking at India as a country with a common enemy, China. They need India to balance the power in Asia in the long term and that made them even to turn down Pakistan to some extend, because India is more important for their future interests than Pakistan.
If you follow the defence related news it gets more and more obvious, that the US are preparing to counter China in with full power, be it increasing defence relations with Philippines that feels threatens from PLAN, be it placing additional naval forces in Australia, or these recent reports:



BBC News - Leon Panetta: US to deploy 60% of navy fleet to Pacific


Getting us on their side to cover the Indian Ocean area, or to open a 2nd front is tactically important for them and that's why they opend their defence markets and increased exercises and relations to us. Friendship, trust, or seeing each other on the same level has nothing to do with it and even long allies like the UK, Australia, Canada learned that the hard way too.

Listen I read those points you brought up before and while they are impressive, I dont believe they tell the whole story. I mean, the US prevented and stopped CHina from attacking again. Look at Thailand, Singapore, South Korea economies. We only liberated ourselves in 1991, but our policies before that were completely socialist. Being non aligned puts you in a precarious position of having no allies. That is a mentality we cannot afford anymore due to the missteps we have taken in defence production for decades. Time to close the gap the only way we have available now. China is banking on our fuked up non alignment policy to stay away from the US. Take a look at China;s posture for decades....it has never been friendly to us. One or two actions I can understand, but repeated slaps, then we are the morons.....

 

[sancho]

The Isrealis and Brits may have custimised their versions but they are based on older versions of the Apache (A/D Blk.I/II)

Wrong, the block 3 is an upgrade to put the Apache on the same technical level as the British WAH Apache, which already has upgraded engines, better communication systems and avionics..., the Israelis have better protection and satcom systems, but still the older engines and stuff, that's why they already thinking about the next upgrades.
The rest as mentioned, it's good to add some US arms and techs in lower numbers and specialised roles, but we have better alternatives and the political benefits are more important for India!