U.S. Challenges China on Disputed Islands

[deepak75]

USA can't stop China from rising but she keeps trying to make things uneasy for China - Tibet and Xinjiang. And now USA is trying to gang up with Southeast Asia to give China a hard time on the Paracel Islands.

What about the interests of the other nations staking a claim to these islands? Or do you think that everything that China stakes claim to, automatically becomes Chinese and you then have to defend it?

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

What about the interests of the other nations staking a claim to these islands? Or do you think that everything that China stakes claim to, automatically becomes Chinese and you then have to defend it?

No... I think it should be divided up fairly.

 

[rohailmalhi]

When is North Korea going to be "punished" for sinking the warship of a US ally?

If u r refering to the ship sunk by the torpedo launched by north koreans .then u are arong coz in the investigation it is proved tht it was not a torpedo but a sea mine or sumthing like tht.investigation is done by Russians.so actually north korean did nothing.

 

[CardSharp]

No... I think it should be divided up fairly.

My naive and well meaning friend. It's an all or nothing game here, sharing is not caring. The islands themselves are worthless. What is valuable is the fact that if you control the islands you control the seas around it for 200 miles. This area of ocean is home to crucial sea lanes and natural gas reserves. One must have total control over the islands to claim the seas around it.

 

[deepak75]

My naive and well meaning friend. It's an all or nothing game here, sharing is not caring. The islands themselves are worthless. What is valuable is the fact that if you control the islands you control the seas around it for 200 miles. This area of ocean is home to crucial sea lanes and natural gas reserves. One must have total control over the islands to claim the seas around it.

Our "naive and well meaning friend" is in fact making a lot of sense.

So going by your thinking how do you plan approach this conflict? Basis what logic. How about the islands which are closer to other nations then China?

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

My naive and well meaning friend. It's an all or nothing game here, sharing is not caring. The islands themselves are worthless. What is valuable is the fact that if you control the islands you control the seas around it for 200 miles. This area of ocean is home to crucial sea lanes and natural gas reserves. One must have total control over the islands to claim the seas around it.

Fair enough... but is it really worth the animosity of all those South East Asian nations who also claim it?

They are our neighbours after all... we have to live next to them for a long time.

 

[CardSharp]

Our "naive and well meaning friend" is in fact making a lot of sense.

So going by your thinking how do you plan approach this conflict? Basis what logic. How about the islands which are closer to other nations then China?

I personally think China's claim on the Spratelys and Parcels is dubious, but I just think I understand why China wants them.

Fair enough... but is it really worth the animosity of all those South East Asian nations who also claim it?

They are our neighbours after all... we have to live next to them for a long time.

This issue doesn't change the situation much. The only country who is even really bothering with more than words is Vietnam and they already hate China for centuries upon centuries of us kicking the crap out of them and their royals adapting Chinese vs Vietnamese customs.

But like it or not their future lies with us. They have the potential to take off economically, they have a very hard working labour force, a functional government who is open minded, but what they lack is infrastructure and manufacturing experience. Both of which China has in spades and is willing to share, on a couple of conditions and for some concessions...

The Vietnamese people are proud and defiant and have been so for thousands of years, so it remains uncertain that they will accept China's big brother treatment.

 

[Thomas]

LOL well the USA did lose to North Vietnamese and Chinese soldiers in the Vietnam war. That "loss" is a historical fact.

The official result of the Sino-Vietnamese war is that both sides declared victory.

The objective was to "teach them a lesson" as opposed to "extended occupation"... and that is exactly what happened. All encountered Vietnamese forces were defeated, and then Chinese forces withdrew.

That can't be compared to the napalm massacre of over 5 million innocent civilians in Vietnam and the FORCED withdrawal of US forces. That was a clear defeat, both strategic and military.

And back to the present,what's going on with Afghanistan and North Korea? When is North Korea going to be "punished" for sinking the warship of a US ally?

Are they going to do naval exercises in the Yellow Sea? Oh wait, that was cancelled due to diplomatic pressure... lol...

Actually the exercise took place and ended either yesterday or today. And what happens in Korea has been mostly left up to the South Koreans since it is their citizens in the cross hairs. We will see in the next few weeks what happens. South Korea is holding more naval maneuvers and the North has issued a new round of threats. If the North starts shooting again you can bet the South Korean response will be more forceful this time.

 

[Chinaownseverything]

What about the interests of the other nations staking a claim to these islands? Or do you think that everything that China stakes claim to, automatically becomes Chinese and you then have to defend it?

Ancient Chinese artifacts have been found on these islands and these islands have all been shown on old chinese maps.

Cast aside all your bias and read the history of the Spratly islands, China has been there first.

The French took it from the chinese by force, now the vietnamese claim it for themselves due to supposedly French legacy and due to having it on a map 100 years later

Spratly Islands - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Ancient Chinese maps record the "Thousand Li Stretch of Sands"; Qianli Changsha (千里長&#27801 and the "Ten-Thousand Li of Stone Pools"; Wanli Shitang (萬里石&#22616[7], which China today claims refers to the Spratly Islands. The Wanli Shitang have been explored by the Chinese since the Yuan Dynasty and may have been considered within their national boundaries. [8][9] They are also referenced in the 13th century,[10] followed by the Ming Dynasty.[11] When the Ming Dynasty collapsed, the Qing Dynasty continued to include the territory in maps compiled in 1724,[12] 1755,[13] 1767,[14] 1810,[15] and 1817[16]. A Vietnamese map from 1834 also includes the Spratly Islands clumped in with the Paracels (a common occurrence on maps of that time) labeled as "Wanli Changsha".[17]

According to Hanoi, old Vietnamese maps record Bãi Cát Vàng (Golden Sandbanks, referring to both Paracels and the Spratly Islands) which lay near the Coast of the central Vietnam as early as 1838.[18] In Phủ Biên Tạp Lục (Frontier Chronicles) by the scholar Lê Quý Đôn, Hoàng Sa and Trường Sa were defined as belonging to Quảng Ngãi District. He described it as where sea products and shipwrecked cargoes were available to be collected. Vietnamese text written in the 17th century referenced government-sponsored economic activities during the Lê Dynasty, 200 years earlier. The Vietnamese government conducted several geographical surveys of the islands in the 18th century.[18]

 

[Chinaownseverything]

I personally think China's claim on the Spratelys and Parcels is dubious, but I just think I understand why China wants them.





This issue doesn't change the situation much. The only country who is even really bothering with more than words is Vietnam and they already hate China for centuries upon centuries of us kicking the crap out of them and their royals adapting Chinese vs Vietnamese customs.

But like it or not their future lies with us. They have the potential to take off economically, they have a very hard working labour force, a functional government who is open minded, but what they lack is infrastructure and manufacturing experience. Both of which China has in spades and is willing to share, on a couple of conditions and for some concessions...

The Vietnamese people are proud and defiant and have been so for thousands of years, so it remains uncertain that they will accept China's big brother treatment.

Its also because of their government, it is JUST like China's except instead of engineers their government is ruled by generals so their diplomacy style is hardline and aggressive.

 

[deepak75]

Ancient Chinese artifacts have been found on these islands and these islands have all been shown on old chinese maps.

Cast aside all your bias and read the history of the Spratly islands, China has been there first.

The French took it from the chinese by force, now the vietnamese claim it for themselves due to supposedly French legacy and due to having it on a map 100 years later

Spratly Islands - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Ancient Chinese maps record the "Thousand Li Stretch of Sands"; Qianli Changsha (千里長&#27801 and the "Ten-Thousand Li of Stone Pools"; Wanli Shitang (萬里石&#22616[7], which China today claims refers to the Spratly Islands. The Wanli Shitang have been explored by the Chinese since the Yuan Dynasty and may have been considered within their national boundaries. [8][9] They are also referenced in the 13th century,[10] followed by the Ming Dynasty.[11] When the Ming Dynasty collapsed, the Qing Dynasty continued to include the territory in maps compiled in 1724,[12] 1755,[13] 1767,[14] 1810,[15] and 1817[16]. A Vietnamese map from 1834 also includes the Spratly Islands clumped in with the Paracels (a common occurrence on maps of that time) labeled as "Wanli Changsha".[17]

According to Hanoi, old Vietnamese maps record Bãi Cát Vàng (Golden Sandbanks, referring to both Paracels and the Spratly Islands) which lay near the Coast of the central Vietnam as early as 1838.[18] In Phủ Biên Tạp Lục (Frontier Chronicles) by the scholar Lê Quý Đôn, Hoàng Sa and Trường Sa were defined as belonging to Quảng Ngãi District. He described it as where sea products and shipwrecked cargoes were available to be collected. Vietnamese text written in the 17th century referenced government-sponsored economic activities during the Lê Dynasty, 200 years earlier. The Vietnamese government conducted several geographical surveys of the islands in the 18th century.[18]

Quite logical. It is also called Irrendentism I fear. And going by that logic, Kublai Khan ensured that Mongolia should always claim all of China.

Now getting back to the real world, the more China pushes Vietnam, more boldness will be shown by other nations having a stake in this dispute. So it is better to settle this by being fair in the current parlance of the region and not laying a claim over all and sundry because someone's Daddy owned it.

 

[deepak75]

Its also because of their government, it is JUST like China's except instead of engineers their government is ruled by generals so their diplomacy style is hardline and aggressive.

No. The reason for Vietnam's successful belligerance against China is that they talk to the communist party in China in the only language they understand. Myanmaar is now also learning that language....

So probably it is best for China to not lay claims and rather settle the matter with the agreement of all nations involved, including Vietnam.

 

[TorontoNoctis]

They have the potential to take off economically, they have a very hard working labour force, a functional government who is open minded, but what they lack is infrastructure and manufacturing experience. Both of which China has in spades and is willing to share, on a couple of conditions and for some concessions...

Vietnam should stay away from China.

First Vietnam is China's closest competition in the region, so there's absolutely no reason for China to be playing fair with Vietnam. Even ignoring all the history.

Second Chinese style urbanization is not for Vietnam. Almost all manufacturing and infrastructure is centered around Ho Chi Minh and 80% is controlled by the state. This model is working for them. "Infrastructure" help from China would mean opening many coal plants and displacing the rural class, creating a urban elite and sending tens of millions of displaced farmers into cities looking for work. It would mean putting farmers out of work in favor of mechanization. China can deal with this because it is far richer and more populous, but Vietnam could not.

I see no advantage for Vietnam turning into a swath of factories producing toys for Americans rather than continuing on its path currently. Which is macroeconomic stability rather than rapid growth. Even though the government is focusing on macroeconomics, growth is still near double digits.

 

[CardSharp]

Quite logical. It is also called Irrendentism I fear. And going by that logic, Kublai Khan ensured that Mongolia should always claim all of China.

Now getting back to the real world, the more China pushes Vietnam, more boldness will be shown by other nations having a stake in this dispute. So it is better to settle this by being fair in the current parlance of the region and not laying a claim over all and sundry because someone's Daddy owned it.

wishful thinking for India. It seems that many members here think China is a threat to India and that any other country opposing China must be a good thing. Truth is China is not a threat to India and never has been. The 1962 stab in the back is a lie and the obsession and fear is very much one sided. China is ready for a settled border and better relations.

 

[Nomenclature]

Subtle American diplomacy nooooo it can't be. But I agree, it is a good sign. The hawks are just as annoying in China as they are in the US and a dovish outlook by the leadership may help to ease tensions and mend fences with the neighbours. I am skeptical about how reassured Japan, Singapore, and Vietnam will be by doves in Beijing but it certainly can't hurt.

Generally I agree being nice alone won't really assure anyone and I'm all for a more assertive Chinese foreign policy, but claiming South China Sea as a core interest on the level of Taiwan had gone a bit too far.

Anyway, until the 'core interest' blunder China has managed the South China Sea dispute quite well. Keep insisting on bilateral negotiations meanwhile put pressure on Western oil companies not to drill in the disputed area. It's a diplomatic war of attrition and time is on China's side.