U.S. Challenges China on Disputed Islands

[CardSharp]

what's troll about that,both U.S and China were beaten by Vietnam,that's a big truth now part of history

Said one troll defending another.

I got Solomon's number when I tried to reason with him on the Israel thread, not because of this particular post of his. His grasp on truth is as nebulous as yours.

 

[CardSharp]

Next time you feel like responding, do it in the thread where others can see, Solomon. No need to dirty up a perfectly nice wall with your rubbish.

Sharpie, I just reviewed that thread, and I don't classify what you were doing there as "reasoning".

As for my "grasp on truth" being "nebulous", I'm always open to correction. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts.

Sharpie? Is that your clever way of condescending to me? Anyways, I don't know what your angle is here but it is obvious that our views differ too much for either of us to be convincing to the other and there is no real way of establishing epistemologically who is superior that would satisfy both of us.

BUT I have tried my best to reason with you in the Israel Myth thread and what you've done there is ignore the facts that you couldn't dispute and throw whatever dubious claims contrary to mine at the other facts, citing the numerous Zionist websites and pundits out there without any attempt at objectivity.

In that thread, I have ceded the points where I was wrong, and you have shown no willingness to do likewise. So no you are not "always open to correction" and if "Everyone is entitled to their own opinion" it doesn't mean I have to suffer yours.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

The Vietnamese defeated China in a war only a few years after the U.S. departed from Southeast Asia. The Vietnamese know who their real (that is, long-term) enemies are, that is why they are eager to have us Americans return.

As I understand it by international law China, as a continental power, may not justly claim to be sovereign over seas that are in greater proximity to other nations, nor may it claim as much sovereignty over nearby seas as an island nation can. Yet I do not like the fact that the U.S. is speaking in terms of "freedom of navigation" in what is really a territorial dispute.

Your job here is to be the "ambassador of Israel", am I right? You're not doing very well... if anything you're doing the exact opposite.

Anyway the Vietnamese did not ever beat China, we achieved our military objectives and withdrew as per the plan.

The USA on the other hand, lost to North Vietnam and China in the Vietnam War. Then they failed to take North Korea. Now they are struggling to beat poorly armed Afghani insurgents....

 

[Solomon2]

The USA on the other hand, lost to North Vietnam and China in the Vietnam War. Then they failed to take North Korea...

As I wrote, I'm not fond of the U.S. taking a stance in this dispute. "Let sleeping dogs lie."

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Nothing is gonna happen..
Damn im startin to believe CLASH OF CIVILISATION lol.

 

[Chinaownseverything]

Your job here is to be the "ambassador of Israel", am I right? You're not doing very well... if anything you're doing the exact opposite.

Anyway the Vietnamese did not ever beat China, we achieved our military objectives and withdrew as per the plan.

The USA on the other hand, lost to North Vietnam and China in the Vietnam War. Then they failed to take North Korea. Now they are struggling to beat poorly armed Afghani insurgents....

No sorry, but China clearly lost the war against Vietnam.

China's objective was to SAVE KHMER ROUGE and POL POT something we failed to do.

Vietnam achieved their objective which was to take out Pol Pot and put in a puppet government.

Failing objectives while other side achieves = Losing the war

 

[CardSharp]

"if "Everyone is entitled to their own opinion" but it doesn't mean I have to suffer yours. "

The "ignore" function is very helpful. And I was keeping our exchange semi-private for two reasons: to help maintain thread discipline and to keep you from losing face. Seems I failed on both counts.

Please you can keep your false courtesy and I did have you on ignore but I thought I'd give you the fair chance to respond because I posted something directed at you. Don't think it didn't occur to me.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

No sorry, but China clearly lost the war against Vietnam.

China's objective was to SAVE KHMER ROUGE and POL POT something we failed to do.

Vietnam achieved their objective which was to take out Pol Pot and put in a puppet government.

Failing objectives while other side achieves = Losing the war

There was no military loss. We came in and beat the Vietnamese army then left. Strategically however, it failed to convince the Vietnamese regime to back off Cambodia, but that's not a military loss. In fact, both sides claimed victory, since the original objective was to "teach the other side a lesson".

Read something sometime, here is a basic page to start off with.

Sino-Vietnamese War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

By the way "Chinaownseverything", with a NAME like that and an Avatar like that, you're clearly not Chinese. Good try though.

 

[TorontoNoctis]

Not sure how you can say you "beat the Vietnamese army" if its elite troops and most regulars were in Cambodia.

Anyway I think even the most patriotic modern Chinese can agree the Khmer Rouge were genocidal maniacs, so it's a good thing the Vietnamese stuck to it .

 

[Nomenclature]

The whole South China Sea dispute has dragged on for decades, I don't think China is in any real hurry to solve it.

At most the U.S intervention can do is to postpone the solution for another decade or two and possibly allow American oil companies to operate there during that period. No one can force China to the negotiation table and even with American support I doubt Vietnam dare to launch an offense against Chinese positions.

But temporarily, the announcement of American involvement seem to strengthen the hand of the 'doves' in Chinese foreign policy circles. Immediately afterward you see articles popping up in the Chinese press criticizing the earlier decision to label South China Sea as a core interest. With the hardening of U.S posture, I expect a relatively more moderate approach from China in coming months.

Another dimension of the U.S involvement is it killed any possibility of a China-Taiwan cooperation in the South China Sea dispute. Recently the Chinese military is busy extending olive branches to its counterpart on the other side of the strait, and the South China Sea dispute is always seen as a potential area the two sides can cooperate on. Such cooperation would significantly strengthen Chinese hand on the dispute, and now with open U.S involvement there's no way Taiwan will engage in such cooperation.

So really, U.S policy on China is getting more clever recently, and as far as it helps the more moderate hands in the Chinese policy circles to regain some footing from the hawks, it may actually be a good thing. Although as I said in the long run it probably won't matter that much.

 

[maxx]

Of course you'd say that it's your islands we're taking.

I think there should be a treaty to keep status quo. What's now yours is yours.

 

[CardSharp]

The whole South China Sea dispute has dragged on for decades, I don't think China is in any real hurry to solve it.

At most the U.S intervention can do is to postpone the solution for another decade or two and possibly allow American oil companies to operate there during that period. No one can force China to the negotiation table and even with American support I doubt Vietnam dare to launch an offense against Chinese positions.

But temporarily, the announcement of American involvement seem to strengthen the hand of the 'doves' in Chinese foreign policy circles. Immediately afterward you see articles popping up in the Chinese press criticizing the earlier decision to label South China Sea as a core interest. With the hardening of U.S posture, I expect a relatively more moderate approach from China in coming months.

Another dimension of the U.S involvement is it killed any possibility of a China-Taiwan cooperation in the South China Sea dispute. Recently the Chinese military is busy extending olive branches to its counterpart on the other side of the strait, and the South China Sea dispute is always seen as a potential area the two sides can cooperate on. Such cooperation would significantly strengthen Chinese hand on the dispute, and now with open U.S involvement there's no way Taiwan will engage in such cooperation.

So really, U.S policy on China is getting more clever recently, and as far as it helps the more moderate hands in the Chinese policy circles to regain some footing from the hawks, it may actually be a good thing. Although as I said in the long run it probably won't matter that much.

Subtle American diplomacy nooooo it can't be. But I agree, it is a good sign. The hawks are just as annoying in China as they are in the US and a dovish outlook by the leadership may help to ease tensions and mend fences with the neighbours. I am skeptical about how reassured Japan, Singapore, and Vietnam will be by doves in Beijing but it certainly can't hurt.

 

[Chinaownseverything]

There was no military loss. We came in and beat the Vietnamese army then left. Strategically however, it failed to convince the Vietnamese regime to back off Cambodia, but that's not a military loss. In fact, both sides claimed victory, since the original objective was to "teach the other side a lesson".

Read something sometime, here is a basic page to start off with.

Sino-Vietnamese War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

By the way "Chinaownseverything", with a NAME like that and an Avatar like that, you're clearly not Chinese. Good try though.

We NEVER fought the Vietnamese army, the Vietnamese army was in Cambodia. The only troops that the PLA fought on the way to Ho chi minh city were militia and guerillas

 

[gambit]

There was no military loss. We came in and beat the Vietnamese army then left. Strategically however, it failed to convince the Vietnamese regime to back off Cambodia, but that's not a military loss. In fact, both sides claimed victory, since the original objective was to "teach the other side a lesson".

A 'military loss'? Remember this the next time you or anyone else proclaim that the US 'lost' in Viet Nam.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

A 'military loss'? Remember this the next time you or anyone else proclaim that the US 'lost' in Viet Nam.

LOL well the USA did lose to North Vietnamese and Chinese soldiers in the Vietnam war. That "loss" is a historical fact.

The official result of the Sino-Vietnamese war is that both sides declared victory.

The objective was to "teach them a lesson" as opposed to "extended occupation"... and that is exactly what happened. All encountered Vietnamese forces were defeated, and then Chinese forces withdrew.

That can't be compared to the napalm massacre of over 5 million innocent civilians in Vietnam and the FORCED withdrawal of US forces. That was a clear defeat, both strategic and military.

And back to the present,what's going on with Afghanistan and North Korea? When is North Korea going to be "punished" for sinking the warship of a US ally?

Are they going to do naval exercises in the Yellow Sea? Oh wait, that was cancelled due to diplomatic pressure... lol...