two murders in india and the need for revolution

[jamahir]

truth according to who?
At least west with all its ugliness allows dissent.. I live in one such country and I know.

right now, truth is me going to watch emma watson interviews.

 

[ranjeet]

right now, truth is me going to watch emma watson interviews.

Jaani you start a thread and don't tag me on it. What kind of friendship is that?

truth according to who?
At least west with all its ugliness allows dissent.. I live in one such country and I know.

Stop bothering My revolutionary friend.

@jamahir will there be free alcohol in the new world order?

 

[livingdead]

right now, truth is me going to watch emma watson interviews.

wo sab theek hai... if I am allowed free pass to your harem and free daru...then reeeevoooluuuutionnnn...

 

[ranjeet]

wo sab theek hai... if I am allowed free pass to your harem and free daru...then reeeevoooluuuutionnnn...

Will you stop stealing my demands?

 

[indianBong]

"freedom of speech" in socialist nations is different from those in others.

in capitalist nations you are allowed to say you want communism or progressive system, but the moment your words gather more people, the establishment tries to suppress you directly or let the non-intellectual public deride your words or hijack your movement ( like happened with occupy )... in all this time, the non-intellectual public is brainwashed against communism... every socialist leader is demonized.

in socialist nations, there is no stoppage of people from intellectual debate or technological debate, as long as it is within socialist ideals or as long as it doesn't become apparent as proopaganda against the system.

In short... you get executed if you speak against the party or its rulers and there atrocities....
if you speak against atrocities you will be termed as capitalist agent/propagandist... e.g pol pot, stalin, che and many more....

 

[livingdead]

Will you stop stealing my demands?

 

[ranjeet]

 

[dray]

huzoor, entire nations have been created decades back under the flag of socialist theory... in 2017 will be the 100th anniversary of the russian revolution...

what other concrete talk do you want??

and until then suffer??

and what has such five-yearly interruptions brought to us for the 68 years??

AND WHAT IS YOUR ALTERNATIVE??

What kind of socialism you want? And which socialist country didn't have the use of money, formal education and jobs?

 

[Razia Sultana]

explain.

Winston Churchil had said that a fanatic is a person who cant change his mind and wont change the subject. You seem to be a fanatic radical muslim and anti indian hiding under the skin of humanity and socialism. You leave no opportunity to criticize your own nation in the name of greater humanity and try to take shelter under socialism to fan your fanatic religious thinking. Your writings are as obvious as a 5 year old's alibi. Thats my assessment of yours in the same way you assess me to be a sanghi.

I am a muslim and have seen fanatics very very closely. In my own village I saw SIMI conducting closed door meetings and the boys who called me aapa and khala were attending that. Suddenly from talking about becoming a doctor, engineer or IAS/PCS, they were talking about jihad and socialism. They began telling me how jihad will bring socialism and equality and bla bla bla..... one day police came looking for them. some ran away and some got caught. Now sanghis will be after me to hear this but it was my family who intervened and got them out with the promise that they will never entertain anti national / anti social elements like SIMI. I am telling this because you give me the same feelings as those members of SIMI. well, SIMI was not outlawed then.

Secondly, when VP Singh's govt. fell, most muslims were disenchanted by Congress and Janata Party and suddenly there was an upsurge in muslim students joining SFI/AISF. Most were fanatic muslims but they loved talking about secularism and socialism. Those who were open muslim radicals joined SIMI and those who were not so open joined the communists.

These were my first hand experiences and when I see your writings, it reminds me of those radical muslim students who joined SIMI or SFI. Here on PDF I find @mujahidind from SIMI and @jamahir from SFI. If you know socialism, you will know that religion has no place in it and if you know islam you know that any political philosophy is meaningless or subordinate to it. People like you are bringing bad name to muslims in India. People like you are giving opportunity to radical hindutva and other communal forces to rise. When I called you a person with petty and parochial mind, I had this in my mind. I will be the happiest person if you prove me wrong.

 

[jamahir]

i never understood the hostile tone you use with me... nevertheless, i will answer to most of your points... i see that my reply has become long.

Winston Churchil had said that a fanatic is a person who cant change his mind and wont change the subject.

i don't see why i should change the subject, especially when you have posted everything in this thread except for opinion on the op and the reasons behind those crimes.

are you not the one fanatically stuck in celebrating india despite the crimes in the op??

You seem to be a fanatic radical muslim and anti indian hiding under the skin of humanity and socialism.

since my joining of pdf, i have been writing of a post-religion communist humanity... why do you fail to mention that??

"fanatic radical muslim" are not what the tableeghis or qaeda are... my types are the real islamists... i do not give loyalty to the mosque and mullah but to the core... therefore i am able to evolve it for the near-future.

i am not muslim just because i was born into a muslim family... i am muslim because i understand islam... long back, i approached islam like some non-muslim who doesn't know the technicalities of fateha's and rakaat's but seem islam to be means to of justice and simplification of his own life and of society.

for real implementations of islam, you should care to look beyond india, especially when i have been drawing you outwards, showing all those socialist muslim societies and movements that were inspired by first the russian revolution and then nasser... you being from a political family should make this easier.

You leave no opportunity to criticize your own nation in the name of greater humanity

then celebrate this ( Female foetuses in Beed fed to dogs to hide evidence | Daily Mail Online )... i call it insanity, i leave to you tell me what you call it.

razia, why do you try to be the archetypal muslim of the 90's films who always is shown getting up from prayers and then waving the tiranga and mouthing dhansoo nationalistic dialogues?? why can't you act natural??

"your own nation"... makkah was the "own nation" of hazrat muhammad and he rebelled against the diktats and the traditional status quo of that place... he did sedition ( a favorite indian establishment word ).

They began telling me how jihad will bring socialism and equality and bla bla bla.....

without using the corrupted understanding of "jihad", would you not say what you said was a noble goal??

though either simi hasn't understood socialism or you are trying to associate me with simi.

one day police came looking for them. some ran away and some got caught.

there begins the implicit threat, from you to me... the stick.

Now sanghis will be after me to hear this but it was my family who intervened and got them out with the promise that they will never entertain anti national / anti social elements like SIMI.

and this is the carrot.

Secondly, when VP Singh's govt. fell, most muslims were disenchanted by Congress and Janata Party and suddenly there was an upsurge in muslim students joining SFI/AISF. Most were fanatic muslims but they loved talking about secularism and socialism. Those who were open muslim radicals joined SIMI and those who were not so open joined the communists.

and you sympathized with abvp??

These were my first hand experiences and when I see your writings, it reminds me of those radical muslim students who joined SIMI or SFI. Here on PDF I find @mujahidind from SIMI and @jamahir from SFI.

i am a lot older than you think.

If you know socialism, you will know that religion has no place in it

again, i have been posting about post-religion communist humanity.

and if you know islam you know that any political philosophy is meaningless or subordinate to it.

even a stone changes over time, and so will islam, for it is a philosophy and not a prayer of constant wording.

islam may have brought solutions and simplicity for the problems and complications of 1400 years ago, but it is not completely suitable for near-future humanity.

therefore i have been posting time and again that islam will naturally meld into a communist humanity because true islam was early socialism and not some cult based on mysticism ( prayer, ritual, blind hope in divinity, isolationist outlook, festivals, superstitions, idolatry ).

People like you are bringing bad name to muslims in India.

you haven't even seen me... all you have done is interpret my 4000+ posts from within the company of crude nationalists.

tell me, what did you do when indian army was ordered by nato in 2003 to send a battalion to iraq to help nato kill iraqis and especially saddam hussain??

i am not putting you on trial but just asking, which is my right... also, i urge you to write about the murders in the op.

finally, i hope you will read my other posts... i am generally in many parts of the forum, writing about all those affairs which affect humanity.

-----------

@haviZsultan i will be glad of your opinion.

 

[haviZsultan]

i never understood the hostile tone you use with me... nevertheless, i will answer to most of your points... i see that my reply has become long.



i don't see why i should change the subject, especially when you have posted everything in this thread except for opinion on the op and the reasons behind those crimes.

are you not the one fanatically stuck in celebrating india despite the crimes in the op??



since my joining of pdf, i have been writing of a post-religion communist humanity... why do you fail to mention that??

"fanatic radical muslim" are not what the tableeghis or qaeda are... my types are the real islamists... i do not give loyalty to the mosque and mullah but to the core... therefore i am able to evolve it for the near-future.

i am not muslim just because i was born into a muslim family... i am muslim because i understand islam... long back, i approached islam like some non-muslim who doesn't know the technicalities of fateha's and rakaat's but seem islam to be means to of justice and simplification of his own life and of society.

for real implementations of islam, you should care to look beyond india, especially when i have been drawing you outwards, showing all those socialist muslim societies and movements that were inspired by first the russian revolution and then nasser... you being from a political family should make this easier.



then celebrate this ( Female foetuses in Beed fed to dogs to hide evidence | Daily Mail Online )... i call it insanity, i leave to you tell me what you call it.

razia, why do you try to be the archetypal muslim of the 90's films who always is shown getting up from prayers and then waving the tiranga and mouthing dhansoo nationalistic dialogues?? why can't you act natural??

"your own nation"... makkah was the "own nation" of hazrat muhammad and he rebelled against the diktats and the traditional status quo of that place... he did sedition ( a favorite indian establishment word ).



without using the corrupted understanding of "jihad", would you not say what you said was a noble goal??

though either simi hasn't understood socialism or you are trying to associate me with simi.



there begins the implicit threat, from you to me... the stick.



and this is the carrot.



and you sympathized with abvp??



i am a lot older than you think.



again, i have been posting about post-religion communist humanity.



even a stone changes over time, and so will islam, for it is a philosophy and not a prayer of constant wording.

islam may have brought solutions and simplicity for the problems and complications of 1400 years ago, but it is not completely suitable for near-future humanity.

therefore i have been posting time and again that islam will naturally meld into a communist humanity because true islam was early socialism and not some cult based on mysticism ( prayer, ritual, blind hope in divinity, isolationist outlook, festivals, superstitions, idolatry ).



you haven't even seen me... all you have done is interpret my 4000+ posts from within the company of crude nationalists.

tell me, what did you do when indian army was ordered by nato in 2003 to send a battalion to iraq to help nato kill iraqis and especially saddam hussain??

i am not putting you on trial but just asking, which is my right... also, i urge you to write about the murders in the op.

finally, i hope you will read my other posts... i am generally in many parts of the forum, writing about all those affairs which affect humanity.

-----------

@haviZsultan i will be glad of your opinion.

As a Lucknowi I will reply to this woman's posts. I have respect for you and agree with you that communism is a system much demonized. However I would like to note that not just Indian but overall all south asian society has only been read out its negative aspects and this begins from as soon as a kid is a toddler. We are taught to reject communism even though it offers universal employment and universal education and equal rights for man and woman

I would like to note that despite all their failings the communists are-be it in India or Pakistan very supportive of minorities and equality and harmony among all religious groups. Therefore even though I have no real interest in seeing this system for my home country I do wish for a different system than the exploitative system that is currently in place.

However my plan is more about merit and the Islamic system. I prefer an IT professional sits at the head of the nations IT industry, a fisherman to be head of the fisheries department, an industrialist at the industries department etc. I also call for President and Prime Minister to be replaced by Caliph/Sultan

 

[Razia Sultana]

i never understood the hostile tone you use with me... nevertheless, i will answer to most of your points... i see that my reply has become long.



i don't see why i should change the subject, especially when you have posted everything in this thread except for opinion on the op and the reasons behind those crimes.

are you not the one fanatically stuck in celebrating india despite the crimes in the op??



since my joining of pdf, i have been writing of a post-religion communist humanity... why do you fail to mention that??

"fanatic radical muslim" are not what the tableeghis or qaeda are... my types are the real islamists... i do not give loyalty to the mosque and mullah but to the core... therefore i am able to evolve it for the near-future.

i am not muslim just because i was born into a muslim family... i am muslim because i understand islam... long back, i approached islam like some non-muslim who doesn't know the technicalities of fateha's and rakaat's but seem islam to be means to of justice and simplification of his own life and of society.

for real implementations of islam, you should care to look beyond india, especially when i have been drawing you outwards, showing all those socialist muslim societies and movements that were inspired by first the russian revolution and then nasser... you being from a political family should make this easier.



then celebrate this ( Female foetuses in Beed fed to dogs to hide evidence | Daily Mail Online )... i call it insanity, i leave to you tell me what you call it.

razia, why do you try to be the archetypal muslim of the 90's films who always is shown getting up from prayers and then waving the tiranga and mouthing dhansoo nationalistic dialogues?? why can't you act natural??

"your own nation"... makkah was the "own nation" of hazrat muhammad and he rebelled against the diktats and the traditional status quo of that place... he did sedition ( a favorite indian establishment word ).



without using the corrupted understanding of "jihad", would you not say what you said was a noble goal??

though either simi hasn't understood socialism or you are trying to associate me with simi.



there begins the implicit threat, from you to me... the stick.



and this is the carrot.



and you sympathized with abvp??



i am a lot older than you think.



again, i have been posting about post-religion communist humanity.



even a stone changes over time, and so will islam, for it is a philosophy and not a prayer of constant wording.

islam may have brought solutions and simplicity for the problems and complications of 1400 years ago, but it is not completely suitable for near-future humanity.

therefore i have been posting time and again that islam will naturally meld into a communist humanity because true islam was early socialism and not some cult based on mysticism ( prayer, ritual, blind hope in divinity, isolationist outlook, festivals, superstitions, idolatry ).



you haven't even seen me... all you have done is interpret my 4000+ posts from within the company of crude nationalists.

tell me, what did you do when indian army was ordered by nato in 2003 to send a battalion to iraq to help nato kill iraqis and especially saddam hussain??

i am not putting you on trial but just asking, which is my right... also, i urge you to write about the murders in the op.

finally, i hope you will read my other posts... i am generally in many parts of the forum, writing about all those affairs which affect humanity.

-----------

@haviZsultan i will be glad of your opinion.

I do hope @haviZsultan comes to your rescue. After all he chose to and could migrate to Pakistan.
My hostile tone is not towards you as a person but towards the thought process you represent.
You may be an Alim or a Moulvi and could say anything about Islam but I dont like to hear a word against my religion and I am not qualified to debate on it, so i avoid it. Also I dont claim to be a hardcore follower of any political ideology but i have my own thinking of things that happen around me and if convinced, I have no ego issues to change my opinion. I strongly believe that we owe to the society we live in. We live in a nation that treats everyone equally and gives hopes to all. My religion does not come in the way of loving my nation and my nation and its constitution does not come in the way of pursuing my religion. If haviZsultan is a nationalist pakistani, he is good but if I am a nationalist Indian, I am bad... I keep telling that I come from an affluent muslim family who fought british and were against 2-nation theory of Jinnah and whose family got divided between Indian and Pakistan. Everytime there were riots in India, we used to get trunk calls from our relatives taunting us about our stand but we never ever thought of leaving our village/country. For we knew that the Constitution of India is sacrosant to the people. As long as its basic structure remains, no one in India has to worry. I did worry for the first time when Vajpayee government tried to review the constitution but good sense prevailed on him. I got worried when people talked of uniform civil code but all this was just political gimmick as till date no one has come up with a draft uniform civil code... na nau man tel hoga na radha nachegi. I got worried when govts failed to stop the communalization of our society. But I never felt so weak to take shelter in radicalization or lose faith in our system unlike you.
I think we fundamentally differ from each other and lets respect it.

 

[haviZsultan]

Winston Churchil had said that a fanatic is a person who cant change his mind and wont change the subject. You seem to be a fanatic radical muslim and anti indian hiding under the skin of humanity and socialism.

I am having doubts now whether you are a muslim or hindu btw, Razia. This tactic is a known Hindutvadi one where people, mostly of the Hindu religion label people like me and my cousins as fanatic radicals or anti indian the chance they get even though we ansaris are extremely liberal though the only problem is we do not give up on the question of our (basic) rights.

My cousin was constantly asked whether he supported Pakistan in cricket matches even though at least that cousin was . This doubt of a muslim's indianness is part of the Hindutva's basic ideological system.

Even though having lost some people to Indian hegemony I refuse to see myself as an Indian I am very defensive of muslims left there and suffering. Als jamahir has never stated he is not an Indian and I do believe he considers himself as such so labelling him anti indian just because he is critical in his approach to Indian nationalism is not going to do you much justice.

What I have noticed is that Muslims left there rarely raise the question of their appalling rights situation for the fear of being labelled disloyal and you are labeling them as such.

You leave no opportunity to criticize your own nation in the name of greater humanity and try to take shelter under socialism to fan your fanatic religious thinking. Your writings are as obvious as a 5 year old's alibi. Thats my assessment of yours in the same way you assess me to be a sanghi.

Since when did criticizing the mistakes of our nations became "fanatic religious thinking"? I a very critical of Pakistan for among many things closing the gates to muslims left there in 1960's before even all migrants had migrated.

I am a muslim and have seen fanatics very very closely. Inmy own village I saw SIMI conducting closed door meetings and the boys who called me aapa and khala were attending that.

I don't know how all this is related to jamahir. Are you trying to say he is a simi member just because you fail to agree with him. I did not expect this.

Suddenly from talking about becoming a doctor, engineer or IAS/PCS, they were talking about jihad and socialism. They began telling me how jihad will bring socialism and equality and bla bla bla..... one day police came looking for them. some ran away and some got caught.

Why don't you ask them why they were forced to join SIMI? India has given nothing to us by the way. Only taken.

Now sanghis will be after me to hear this but it was my family who intervened and got them out with the promise that they will never entertain anti national / anti social elements like SIMI. I am telling this because you give me the same feelings as those members of SIMI. well, SIMI was not outlawed then.

Well that you got them out means they were not fanatics in any way.... or were they and you were supporting terrorists? That is the way India treats us. They arrest innocent muslims and throw them in jails. Don't believe me, there is a higher percentage of muslims in jails compared to their overall population.

Secondly, when VP Singh's govt. fell, most muslims were disenchanted by Congress and Janata Party and suddenly there was an upsurge in muslim students joining SFI/AISF. Most were fanatic muslims but they loved talking about secularism and socialism. Those who were open muslim radicals joined SIMI and those who were not so open joined the communists.

You are constantly labelling jamahir as a "radical" even though he has criticized religious dogma clearly.

I think the question of our loyalty to India should be looked at more critically. India has spared no opportunity to cull muslims. It happened in 69, 92, it happened in 2002 and it can happen again. The only country that can support us when it happens is Pakistan and this inconvenient fact is a truth many modern muslims left there are denying to their own peril.

Lets look at Sachar: The literacy of muslims is almost 10% lower than hindus and muslims are the poorest group there....

Hell an article will do:

In rural areas: 94.9% of Muslims living below poverty line fail to receive free food grain.
Only 3.2% of Muslims get subsidized loans,
Only 2.1% of Muslim farmers have tractors, while just 1% own hand pumps.
54.6% of Muslims in villages and 60% in urban areas have never been to schools. In rural areas, only 0.8% of Muslims are graduates, while in urban areas despite 40% of the Muslims receiving modern education only 3.1% are graduates. Only 1.2% of Muslims are post-graduates in urban areas.

While West Bengal has 25% Muslim population, only 4.2% are employed instate services. In Assam, with a 40% Muslim population, only 11.2% are in government employment. Kerala has 20% Muslims, but only 10.4% of government employees are Muslim.

A better picture is projected by data collected in Karnataka, where against Muslim population of 12.2%, 8.5% are employed in government services. While in Gujarat, of the 9.1% Muslim population, 5.4% are instate jobs (this may be because of large population of elite Muslim groups of Bohras, Khojas, and Memons Even they do not have hardly any IAS officer Asghar), in Tamil Nadu, against a 5.6% Muslim population, 3.2% are employed in government.

Though West Bengal is known as a political bastion of the left bloc, the ones who have always spoken strongly against parties entertaining communal bias, the state has zero% Muslims in state PSUs. While Kerala has 9.5% in state PSUs, Maharashtra has only 1.9%.

Though the Sachar committee was not able to secure data regarding the presence of Muslims in the armed forces, it is fairly well-known that their percentage here is not more than three.
Muslims form only 10.6% of the population in Maharashtra, but 32.4% of the prison inmates here are Muslims. In New Delhi, 27.9 % of inmates are Muslims, though they form only 11.7% of the population here. While in Gujarat, Muslims form 25.1% of the ones imprisoned, they form 9.1% of the population. In Karnataka, Muslims form 12.23% of populace and 17.5%of those imprisoned.

Interestingly, the majority of the Muslim inmates have not been imprisoned for "terrorism." This raises the question whether most of
them are behind bars only for petty crimes or because of the bias displayed against them by Indian police forces. Of the total inmates
serving sentences up to one year, in Maharashtra, Muslims constitute 40.6% of their population. The high percentage of Muslims presence in jails is also said to be an indicator of their being victims of discrimination and suspicion, particularly as their prevails a tendency in India to blame largely Muslim groups for terror attacks taking place here. The report also holds poverty among Muslims as being responsible for turning them towards crime. Poverty and prejudice entertained against them is said to have further contributed to their presence in jails.

Against the backdrop of dismal facts having surfaced regarding social, economic and educational status of Indian Muslims, the Sachar panel has made some recommendations in their favor.

Stating that the future of Muslims does not rest in madrasa education, the Sachar panel recommends more English and Urdu medium government schools in Muslim-dominated areas.

The Sachar panel also recommends allocation of 15% of all government funds to Muslims under all central schemes. It favors greater representation for Muslims in sectors such as health and teaching and also sensitization of government employments towards Muslims requirements.

The Sachar panel has made a strong argument for all Indian Muslims, except the creamy layer.

With the Sachar report having already served as an eye-opener to the harsh reality about the status of Muslims in Indian society, the
question is whether in fact this will propel the government to take some constructive steps towards improving their conditions or would its relevance be confined to noise made in media circles and a little bit of political rhetoric.

Nationalism is not just about take. It is about give too and India has given nothing to muslims except identity. Breaking this identity many muslims left there feel stronger as muslims. This is their prerogative.

These were my first hand experiences and when I see your writings, it reminds me of those radical muslim students who joined SIMI or SFI. Here on PDF I find @mujahidind from SIMI and @jamahir from SFI.

Even mujhaidind was clear that he is an Indian. I don't like his communal posts though. But the point is it is our choice which country or people we choose to be loyal to. India gave us nothing in reality. I believe it is a superimposed identity because before the british it was a divided nation of many parts many which India siezed by force and in the long run being loyal to India rather than the muslim ummah is going to be pretty painful for us muslims. My family learned this the hard way. I hope your family does not have to learn it the hard way too.

Either way we are loyal or disloyal to India as a state we will be perceived as disloyal by the majority of hindutvas and even among many ordinary hindus.

If you know socialism, you will know that religion has no place in it and if you know islam you know that any political philosophy is meaningless or subordinate to it.

That is not a necessity. In fact socialism was advocated by Ibn Rushd and even the mutazlite sect gains inspiration from secular socialism though there is a need to identify what socialism really is in the first place.

People like you are bringing bad name to muslims in India. People like you are giving opportunity to radical hindutva and other communal forces to rise. When I called you a person with petty and parochial mind, I had this in my mind. I will be the happiest person if you prove me wrong.

lol. What did muslims do in 2002 when the hindutvas attacked them. Or in 92? The Hindutvas will always have their reasons for attacking muslims be it babri or no babri.

 

[Razia Sultana]

I am having doubts now whether you are a muslim or hindu btw, Razia. This tactic is a known Hindutvadi one where people, mostly of the Hindu religion label people like me and my cousins as fanatic radicals or anti indian the chance they get even though we ansaris are extremely liberal though the only problem is we do not give up on the question of our (basic) rights.

My cousin was constantly asked whether he supported Pakistan in cricket matches even though at least that cousin was . This doubt of a muslim's indianness is part of the Hindutva's basic ideological system.

Even though having lost some people to Indian hegemony I refuse to see myself as an Indian I am very defensive of muslims left there and suffering. Als jamahir has never stated he is not an Indian and I do believe he considers himself as such so labelling him anti indian just because he is critical in his approach to Indian nationalism is not going to do you much justice.

What I have noticed is that Muslims left there rarely raise the question of their appalling rights situation for the fear of being labelled disloyal and you are labeling them as such.



Since when did criticizing the mistakes of our nations became "fanatic religious thinking"? I a very critical of Pakistan for among many things closing the gates to muslims left there in 1960's before even all migrants had migrated.



I don't know how all this is related to jamahir. Are you trying to say he is a simi member just because you fail to agree with him. I did not expect this.



Why don't you ask them why they were forced to join SIMI? India has given nothing to us by the way. Only taken.



Well that you got them out means they were not fanatics in any way.... or were they and you were supporting terrorists? That is the way India treats us. They arrest innocent muslims and throw them in jails. Don't believe me, there is a higher percentage of muslims in jails compared to their overall population.



You are constantly labelling jamahir as a "radical" even though he has criticized religious dogma clearly.

I think the question of our loyalty to India should be looked at more critically. India has spared no opportunity to cull muslims. It happened in 69, 92, it happened in 2002 and it can happen again. The only country that can support us when it happens is Pakistan and this inconvenient fact is a truth many modern muslims left there are denying to their own peril.

Lets look at Sachar: The literacy of muslims is almost 10% lower than hindus and muslims are the poorest group there....

Hell an article will do:



Nationalism is not just about take. It is about give too and India has given nothing to muslims except identity. Breaking this identity many muslims left there feel stronger as muslims. This is their prerogative.



Even mujhaidind was clear that he is an Indian. I don't like his communal posts though. But the point is it is our choice which country or people we choose to be loyal to. India gave us nothing in reality. I believe it is a superimposed identity because before the british it was a divided nation of many parts many which India siezed by force and in the long run being loyal to India rather than the muslim ummah is going to be pretty painful for us muslims. My family learned this the hard way. I hope your family does not have to learn it the hard way too.

Either way we are loyal or disloyal to India as a state we will be perceived as disloyal by the majority of hindutvas and even among many ordinary hindus.



That is not a necessity. In fact socialism was advocated by Ibn Rushd and even the mutazlite sect gains inspiration from secular socialism though there is a need to identify what socialism really is in the first place.



lol. What did muslims do in 2002 when the hindutvas attacked them. Or in 92? The Hindutvas will always have their reasons for attacking muslims be it babri or no babri.

The problem with Muslim League was that it viewed Indian National Congress as a Hindu Party and the problem with Pakistanis is that they view all Indians as Hindus. Why was there a need to doubt one's faith? Will that help you in your arguement? What will you think of the muslims in India who have inter-religious marriages and its both ways muslim boys and girls marrying non muslims. Will you brand them all hindus? What about thousands of muslim whos who of India? Should they all be branded as hindutva? Why its hard for you to accept that an Indian muslim can be loyal to his nation? I have already said that being a muslim and being an indian is no oxymoron. You have left India for good. We have to live here as we have no intention of migrating to any muslim country. We live here with people of all faiths and religions and thats very essential for living in harmony so we must nip in the bud anything that may disturb our harmony.

 

[dray]

I am having doubts now whether you are a muslim or hindu btw, Razia. This tactic is a known Hindutvadi one where people, mostly of the Hindu religion label people like me and my cousins as fanatic radicals or anti indian the chance they get even though we ansaris are extremely liberal though the only problem is we do not give up on the question of our (basic) rights.

My cousin was constantly asked whether he supported Pakistan in cricket matches even though at least that cousin was . This doubt of a muslim's indianness is part of the Hindutva's basic ideological system.

Even though having lost some people to Indian hegemony I refuse to see myself as an Indian I am very defensive of muslims left there and suffering. Als jamahir has never stated he is not an Indian and I do believe he considers himself as such so labelling him anti indian just because he is critical in his approach to Indian nationalism is not going to do you much justice.

What I have noticed is that Muslims left there rarely raise the question of their appalling rights situation for the fear of being labelled disloyal and you are labeling them as such.

Since when did criticizing the mistakes of our nations became "fanatic religious thinking"? I a very critical of Pakistan for among many things closing the gates to muslims left there in 1960's before even all migrants had migrated.

I don't know how all this is related to jamahir. Are you trying to say he is a simi member just because you fail to agree with him. I did not expect this.

Why don't you ask them why they were forced to join SIMI? India has given nothing to us by the way. Only taken.

Well that you got them out means they were not fanatics in any way.... or were they and you were supporting terrorists? That is the way India treats us. They arrest innocent muslims and throw them in jails. Don't believe me, there is a higher percentage of muslims in jails compared to their overall population.

You are constantly labelling jamahir as a "radical" even though he has criticized religious dogma clearly.

I think the question of our loyalty to India should be looked at more critically. India has spared no opportunity to cull muslims. It happened in 69, 92, it happened in 2002 and it can happen again. The only country that can support us when it happens is Pakistan and this inconvenient fact is a truth many modern muslims left there are denying to their own peril.

Lets look at Sachar: The literacy of muslims is almost 10% lower than hindus and muslims are the poorest group there....

Hell an article will do:

Nationalism is not just about take. It is about give too and India has given nothing to muslims except identity. Breaking this identity many muslims left there feel stronger as muslims. This is their prerogative.

Even mujhaidind was clear that he is an Indian. I don't like his communal posts though. But the point is it is our choice which country or people we choose to be loyal to. India gave us nothing in reality. I believe it is a superimposed identity because before the british it was a divided nation of many parts many which India siezed by force and in the long run being loyal to India rather than the muslim ummah is going to be pretty painful for us muslims. My family learned this the hard way. I hope your family does not have to learn it the hard way too.

Either way we are loyal or disloyal to India as a state we will be perceived as disloyal by the majority of hindutvas and even among many ordinary hindus.

That is not a necessity. In fact socialism was advocated by Ibn Rushd and even the mutazlite sect gains inspiration from secular socialism though there is a need to identify what socialism really is in the first place.

lol. What did muslims do in 2002 when the hindutvas attacked them. Or in 92? The Hindutvas will always have their reasons for attacking muslims be it babri or no babri.

First, you should stop referring yourself as an Indian and stop speaking on behalf of Indians, Muslims or otherwise. You are not an Indian, you are a Pakistani, your ancestral links with Lucknow doesn't count you as an Indian or to speak as an Indian, I hope you understand this simple fact.

Further, there is no discrimination against Muslims in India, government schools are open for all irrespective of ones religion, and they are free, parents just need to enroll their children in the schools.
Jobs are open for all, one just need to crack the exams for government jobs if you are mentioning that.
Riots are done by both the communities, any one community don't get to claim victimhood here. Btw, @jamahir was literally supporting/defending the Godhra massacre.
Lastly, police don't get to convict criminals, courts do, and our judicial system is fairly neutral.