What's new

Twice in 2013 Israeli soldiers hid by schools and shot dead Palestinian children posing no threat

RFS_Br

FULL MEMBER
Joined
Jun 1, 2012
Messages
1,237
Reaction score
0
Country
Brazil
Location
Brazil
Israel: No Evidence that Boy Killed by Soldiers Posed Any Threat | Human Rights Watch

Second ‘Ambush’ Killing of Child Near Schools in 2013
JANUARY 5, 2014

Twice this year, Israeli soldiers hiding near schools, apparently to make arrests, have killed children who posed no apparent threat. If the past is any guide, these boys’ families can look forward to a prolonged, opaque, and fruitless process that does not hold perpetrators to account or deliver justice.
Joe Stork, deputy Middle East and North Africa director

(Jerusalem) – No evidence has been presented by the Israeli authorities that a 15-year-old boy fatally shot in the back by Israeli soldiers near his school on December 9, 2013, posed any threat to life that would justify such a killing. It was the second incident involving the lethal shooting of a child in the back by Israeli forces deployed near a school in 2013.

A soldier shot Wajih al-Ramahi in the Jalazone refugee camp, witnesses told Human Rights Watch. The evidence obtained by Human Rights Watch is inconclusive as to whether al-Ramahi, who was shot in an area between the school and a market, had joined Palestinian youths nearby who were throwing stones toward the soldiers, but the soldiers were approximately 200 meters away and not at any risk of being hit by stones, the witnesses said.

“Twice this year, Israeli soldiers hiding near schools, apparently to make arrests, have killed children who posed no apparent threat,” said Joe Stork, deputy Middle East and North Africa director at Human Rights Watch. “If the past is any guide, these boys’ families can look forward to a prolonged, opaque, and fruitless process that does not hold perpetrators to account or deliver justice.”

In January, Israeli forces who had concealed themselves next to a military fence not far from the boys’ school in the village of Budrus fatally shot Samir `Awad, 16, witnesses said. `Awad had entered an open military gate in the Israeli separation barrier. Soldiers appeared and shot `Awad as he tried to run away, witnesses said. They said that `Awad and other Palestinians in the area had not thrown stones or otherwise threatened the soldiers. The military has not claimed that they did.

The military has said it is investigating both killings.

In the December 9 incident, a soldier near the Beit El settlement shot al-Ramahi in the back from a distance of around 200 meters, witnesses told Human Rights Watch. The Israeli daily Haaretz reported on December 11 that a “military official” told the newspaper:

A squad from the Tzabar Battalion of the [Israel Defense Forces] Givati Brigade was deployed on ambush to apprehend stone-throwers. During the activity [the Palestinians] began throwing stones at the squad and toward Israelis in the area. According to the [internal military after-action] report the squad commander began the procedure for arresting a suspect and shooting was only in the air.

According to medical sources and photographs of the body seen by Human Rights Watch, al-Ramahi had a bullet wound in his back and no exit-wound. The lack of an exit-wound is consistent with statements that the bullet was fired from an assault rifle at considerable distance from al-Ramahi.

There was no apparent justification for the use of live ammunition, Human Rights Watch said. International standards on the use of firearms in policing situations stipulate that lethal force may be used only as a last resort when strictly necessary to protect life. Should the incident be covered by the laws of war, which are applicable in the occupied West Bank, the shooting would violate the prohibition on targeting civilians, so long as the individual was not actively participating in hostilities. An attack on a civilian that is carried out intentionally or recklessly is a war crime.

In the January incident, a military spokesman, Capt. Eytan Buchman, said troops had followed “standard rules of engagement, which included live fire,” Haaretz reported on the day of the incident. The Israeli military said it was investigating the incident, which news reports said involved soldiers from the Armored Corps.

Witnesses to the January incident told Human Rights Watch that they testified at a military hearing in February, with the assistance of an Israeli rights group, B’Tselem, which also documented the incident and provided the information it collected to the military. In May, the Military Advocate General’s office informed B’Tselem that the Military Police Criminal Investigations Division was conducting further inquiries. A Palestinian doctor who had seen `Awad’s body provided testimony in May, and one of the boys who witnessed the shooting testified at a hearing in December.

Israel has indicted only 16 security officials for unlawfully killing Palestinians since September 2000, and convicted only six; the longest jail sentence imposed was for seven months, according to information Yesh Din, an Israeli rights group, obtained from the military.

[Click on the link to read four different accounts on these two cases. -- RFS]
 
header-center2.jpg




December 9, 2013 by Tamar Sternthal

Following accusations by Wajdi al-Ramahi that his 14-year-old son Wajih was the victim of a "cold-blooded murder" at the hands of Israeli "soldiers [who] wanted to pass the time and shot at him," Ha'aretz today publishes a more balanced report examining the contradictory claims regarding the boy's killing in the Jalazun refugee camp Saturday.

Wajdi's claims that the soldiers shot his son "as if he were a bird" hark back to Chris Hedges' 2001 debunked incendiary charge in Harper's that Israeli soldiers "entice children like mice into a trap and murder them for sport." It is Amira Hass, a longtime critic of Israel, who surprisingly brings more balance to the story today describing the conflicting accounts about Wajih's activities before his was killed ("Accounts of Palestinian teen's death differ"). While his friends claim he was playing soccer before his death, eyewitness describes groups of children throwing stones at soldiers.

She writes:

His friends from the refugee camp claimed that there were no clashes between children and IDF soldiers at the time al-Ramahi was shot, though eyewitnesses told Haaretz, B’tselem and the Palestinian Center for Human Rights that stones were being thrown at soldiers. IDF officials stated that the stone throwing began only after soldiers positioned themselves in an ambush “meant to catch stone throwers.” . . .

An eyewitness who asked to remain nameless stated that he noticed two groups of children throwing stones from an orchard that spans the distance between an UNRWA school and a group of houses outside of the camp. . . .
Another eyewitness stated that he heard “maybe 20” gun shots, which were not preceded by less lethal measures, such as tear gas or rubber-coated bullets, after which he noticed the group of children coming out of the small olive grove while carrying something in their hands. . . .

Family of 'Peace'

In a separate noteworthy element about the article, Hass provides an inaccurate and incomplete picture of the al-Ramahi family background. She writes:

A relative, Ayman al-Ramahi, stated that their family is from the ruined village of al Mozriyah, near Lod, and that the family is known to support Fatah and the Palestinian authority. “We all support the Oslo agreements, peace. But what kind of peace is this?”

Wajih al-Ramahii’s father and grandfather have served time in prison due to their activism with Fatah. His father was in prison from 1977 to 1992. The IDF demolished two of the family’s houses, and sealed up two others. Ayman al-Ramahi also stated that between 2000 and 2008, two other members of the al-Rahimi family were killed by IDF gunfire, Mohammed Ahmed, 14-years-old, and Mohammed Jamal, 21-years-old. Wajih’s older brother is currently in custody and awaiting trial, and two of his cousins are also currently being held in Israeli jails.

If the family supports peace, as relative Ayman says, they sure have a unique way of expressing it. Wajih's brothers Mohammed Ahmed, 14, and Mohammed Jamal, 21, were not killed while peacefully playing soccer, picked off "like birds" by cold-blooded Israeli murderers seeking to "pass time." (Note: Other than Hass' report, we find no additional confirmation of the fact that the other two al-Ramahi casualties are Wajih's brothers.)

As was widely reported in Western media, 21-year-old Mohammed Jamal was killed Oct. 15, 2008 as he was attacking Israeli soldiers. As Isabel Kershner reported for the International Herald Tribune (Oct. 17, 2008):

Israeli troops shot and killed a Palestinian man during a clash in the West Bank before dawn Thursday, the third killing in three days, Palestinian officials said. The Israeli Army asserted that all three were holding or about to throw firebombs when they were shot. . .

On Wednesday, another Palestinian, Muhammad Ramahi, 21, died from wounds sustained in a clash with Israeli troops at the Jalazoun refugee camp that abuts Ramallah.


Similarly, the Los Angeles Times reported Oct. 17, 2008 (Ashraf Khalil and Maher Abukhater):

The incidents on Tuesday and Wednesday occurred near the Israeli settlement of Beit El, outside Ramallah and near the Palestinian refugee camp of Jalazoun. In each case, the Israelis say that the Palestinians were wielding lighted firebombs, while Palestinians assert that they were only throwing rocks. . .

On Wednesday, camp residents staged a protest that turned violent after Zeid's funeral. The soldiers opened fire again, fatally injuring Mahmoud Ramahi, 22.

As for the younger Mohammed, just 14, he too was killed as he was attacking an Israeli -- apparently a civilian, not a soldier. Contrary to Hass' report, he was killed during the Oslo years, in 1995, long before the 2000 to 2008 period of heightened Intifada violence. According to the Associated Press ("Report: Settler Kills Stone-throwing Palestinian Teenager," Nov. 3, 1995):
Muhamed Ramahi, 14, joined a group of youngsters hurling stones at a Jewish car driving through Jalazoun village, family members said. The driver stopped and opened fire, hitting Ramahi in the chest, they added.
If Wajih al-Ramahi was killed Saturday as he was engaged in stone-throwing, and if Hass is right that the two slain Mohammeds are his brothers, then he's the third son in his family to die while engaged in violence against Israelis.
 
Human Rights Watch vs. pro-Israel propagandist outfit best known for trolling Wikipedia.

I'm not even going to read it, Solomon. And there's no need to - it's not with apologia for child murder that you'll reach out to more people than the already converted..
 
Human Rights Watch vs. pro-Israel propagandist outfit best known for trolling Wikipedia.
HRW isn't a judicial outfit and the IDF is under no obligation to report to it; furthermore, the anti-Israel evolution of HRW (which used to be Helsinki Watch and supported the plight of Soviet Jews wishing to emigrate to Israe) is well-known.

I'm not even going to read it, Solomon. And there's no need to - it's not with apologia for child murder that you'll reach out to more people than the already converted..
It's not "child murder" if the kid was endangering life and limb.

You're only interested in things that support your prejudice, not facts-as-they-really-are. Haven't Arabs suffered enough for elevating clan and tribe over justice? Can't you see that if human principles were valued above theft we wouldn't be seeing conflict in Syria, Iraq, Pakistan, Sudan, and Egypt today? Haven't enough Muslims died by their own hands and hatreds just because it was deemed necessary to demonize the Jews and Israel?

It's time for you to switch sides, RFS_Br. You can do more good that way. You see that, don't you?
 
HRW isn't a judicial outfit and the IDF is under no obligation to report to it; furthermore, the anti-Israel evolution of HRW (which used to be Helsinki Watch and supported the plight of Soviet Jews wishing to emigrate to Israe) is well-known.

It's not "child murder" if the kid was endangering life and limb.

You're only interested in things that support your prejudice, not facts-as-they-really-are. Haven't Arabs suffered enough for elevating clan and tribe over justice? Can't you see that if human principles were valued above theft we wouldn't be seeing conflict in Syria, Iraq, Pakistan, Sudan, and Egypt today? Haven't enough Muslims died by their own hands and hatreds just because it was deemed necessary to demonize the Jews and Israel?

It's time for you to switch sides, RFS_Br. You can do more good that way. You see that, don't you?

We get it. You think Israel is incapable of wrongdoing and should not be condemned, regarldess of the horrific crimes it commits.
 
We get it. You think Israel is incapable of wrongdoing and should not be condemned, regarldess of the horrific crimes it commits.

He is Indian.... and his comrades are doing even worst in Kashmir.
 
Last edited:
HRW isn't a judicial outfit and the IDF is under no obligation to report to it
Legally, it isn't; legally, the IDF is subjected only to Israeli justice system - a system that is most uninterested in Palestinian loss of life at the hands of Jews. That is, the IDF is de facto unaccountable for its behavior against Palestinians; but the fact that its crimes are seldom to never prosecuted doesn't mean they don't exist.

furthermore, the anti-Israel evolution of HRW (which used to be Helsinki Watch and supported the plight of Soviet Jews wishing to emigrate to Israe) is well-known.
Pre-emptively declaring a group biased so as to prevent debating its work - a very Zionist tactic. It is used very often among Zionists to discredit a very wide range of non-partisan, non-pro-Israel groups that document events taking place in Palestine. The UN, for example. I bet I can find posts of yours calling the UN anti-Semitic, biased against Israel etc., but I vividly remember a thread of yours bragging that a UN report concluded that one of the Gazan child casualties of the November 2012 Israeli assault was supposedly caused by Gazan fire - you even had a thread on the report.

That's not how it works. You can't declare a group's work unreliable and then flaunt it whenever it says something convenient to your side. Either a group is unreliable or it's not. You have yet to understand that - rather, you hang onto whatever falls on your lap, as long as it makes Israel look good.

There's no reason to assume Human Rights Watch has a bias against Israel. HRW is based in the US; the predominant bias in that country is favorable to Israel - far too favorable, in fact. What's more, Arab- or Muslim-Americans are a small minority, not poor overall, but isolated and holding little influence. This is specially so when compared with Jewish Americans - basically an aristocracy in the US. What reason do we, then, have to assume that the work of the best known US human rights group is hampered by a Palestinian bias? After all, the most pro-Palestinian sectors of US society are not influent at all. If anything, we have reason to distrust the opposite - that, considering the state of US politics, HRW avoids going as far on its Israeli coverage as it would, were the US cultural climate different.

You yourself provide evidence against your own case. I didn't know about Helsinki Watch - thanks for the information. You've proven HRW has a record of Philosemitism. And not only of Philosemitism - of defending Jewish supremacy even. Bear in mind that, in the Soviet Union, it wasn't only the Jews who were forbidden to emigrate; all Soviets were. The US Jewish call - which you say HRW's predecessor supported - that Soviet Jews be allowed to emigrate: that was in effect a demand that Soviet Jews be privileged over non-Jews.

What reason do we have to assume HRW's bias has changed from this Philosemitism? You offer none; if you're so convinced there's an anti-Israel bias in HRW's work, you should be able to explain how it came to - how HRW supposedly changed from its Helsinki Watch past.

And finally, you fail your own neutrality demands. CAMERA is a pro-Israel group - it sure is far easier to prove that than HRW's "anti-Israel" bias. You know that; you know that but you still posted their murder apologia.

It's not "child murder" if the kid was endangering life and limb.
Which substantiated evidence - witness accounts and the autopsy - shows there were none. The IDF's version isn't per se an evidence, for that matter; in a murder case investigation is never settled with the murderer's account only. After all, if given the chance, a murderer will relate his crime in the most self-serving of ways. Why'd it be different with the IDF in regards to the children it has killed? What's more, one of the kids the HRW report refers to, the one killed in January 2013, is yet to be denigrated as some sort of dangerous stone-thrower. The IDF is yet to explain why it murdered him by shooting him in the back as he fled. But that doesn't stop you from defending it nonetheless.

You're only interested in things that support your prejudice, not facts-as-they-really-are.
Lol, and what do you think will establish "facts-as-they-really-are"? CAMERA?

IHaven't Arabs suffered enough for elevating clan and tribe over justice?
Spare me your condescendence. They have suffered----from unprovoked aggression by your two beloved countries, the US and Israel. And as a Jew, you're not in a position to point the finger to anyone else's tribalism.

When asked by an Israeli journalist how'd he deal with Jewish stone throwers, this is what an IDF general said:
...you don’t expect the colonel to open fire at a Jew standing in front of him. I’m certain that’s not what you meant.
Your side thinks nothing of using alleged stone-throwing as an excuse for murder -- and this even when the supposed stone-thrower is a child standing several hundred meters away from their alleged targets. But only, as the aforementioned IDF general implied above, if the thrower is non-Jew; a Jewish stone-thrower will never be shot at like Palestinians are. This is not justice - this is extreme racial tribalism.

Can't you see that if human principles were valued above theft we wouldn't be seeing conflict in Syria, Iraq, Pakistan, Sudan, and Egypt today?
Solomon, you're the one making up excuses for the murder of two children by heavily armed occupation soldiers. I'm pretty sure you're a drone defender, too - an apologist for a campaign that won't cease provoking massive child and civilian casualties in the countries you listed. And this is you making little of Iraqi casualties in the illegal US war. You care absolutely nothing about justice - sometimes you pretend you do, but only where your two beloved countries, the US and Israel, are not directly concerned. Then, you will weep over the dead; because it's safe to - it's not demeaning to your nationalist or religious sensitivities. But when the US and Israel are directly involved in bloodshed, you either make little of the tragedies their rogue acts provoke, or make up excuses to defend the indefensible. You're some case of "elevating clan and tribe over justice", of national and religious tribalism, if I've ever seen one.

Haven't enough Muslims died by their own hands and hatreds just because it was deemed necessary to demonize the Jews and Israel?
Strife in Syria or in any of the countries you listed, has absolutely nothing to do with Israel - you Jews are not the center of the world, get over yourselves. And a far larger number of Muslims have died at the US's hands than in intra-Muslim conflicts. If you really cared about loss of Muslim life, you wouldn't be making up excuses for it. You'd be protesting when the US perpetrates a genocide in Iraq, or when Israel shoots children in the back; you wouldn't be milking intra-Muslim strife to do propaganda for Israel and make its crimes appear smaller in comparison.
 
Last edited:
Do you guys Remember
Rachel Corrie you know why they killed her cause she was a suicide bomber :agree:
 
We get it. You think Israel is incapable of wrongdoing and should not be condemned, regarldess of the horrific crimes it commits.
We're talking about a specific accusation here. I've shown it to be, if not wrong, then highly doubtful. Your response implies that doesn't matter, what matters is that a lie should be used as a weapon to target Israel for "the horrific crimes it commits". Haven't you got it through your head yet that if this story of a "horrific crime" is amiss, then it may be likely that almost all the others are lies as well and your criticism of Israel as "criminal" or "horrible" is unfounded?
 
:lol: Why people get so upset when Israel is being criticized for one issue or another.
 
Legally, it isn't; legally, the IDF is subjected only to Israeli justice system - a system that is most uninterested in Palestinian loss of life at the hands of Jews.
Even you acknowledge that Israel's soldiers are subject to an accountable justice system run by civilians - even if it isn't accountable the way you want. That's better than Pakistan offers, and of course much more than the terror outfits of the Arabs in Gaza and the West Bank, who must grow outside families with cousin-tied clan bonds for partial protection from tyranny.

Pre-emptively declaring a group biased so as to prevent debating its work - a very Zionist tactic...There's no reason to assume Human Rights Watch has a bias against Israel.
I don't do that: you do by your own admission! As you pointed out earlier, you didn't bother to read the post!

What reason do we have to assume HRW's bias has changed from this Philosemitism?

"AS the founder of Human Rights Watch, its active chairman for 20 years and now founding chairman emeritus, I must do something that I never anticipated: I must publicly join the group’s critics. "

"There is nothing wrong with a human rights organization worrying about maltreatment of domestic workers. But there is something wrong when a human rights organization goes to one of the worst countries in the world for human rights to raise money to wage lawfare against Israel, and says not a word during the trip about the status of human rights in that country."

Criticism of HRW in Wikipedia

and most recent, What Was Human Rights Watch Thinking?

It is used very often among Zionists to discredit a very wide range of non-partisan, non-pro-Israel groups that document events taking place in Palestine.
As people many people have realized, the crimes Israel is accused of are often those of Israel's critics themselves. It is said that Islam has described Jews as "descendants of apes and pigs". But what if I'm just a Muslim pretending to be a Jew and you're a Jew pretending to be a Muslim? Wouldn't the description fit you better, as you are "aping" criticism of yourself by applying it falsely to others, while "wallowing" in joy of your evils?

That's not how it works. You can't declare a group's work unreliable , and then flaunt it whenever it says something convenient to your side.
Sure I can. Groups consist of individuals. Individuals take actions. Some actions may be justifiable, some not. Some individuals, or groups of individuals, may be bad, others good. I like to think that in Ameria there are more bad people in prison than good people in prison, for example. Of course, if you grew up under an oppressive regime you've experienced enough injustice to realize that's not the case - but in such regimes the law serves tyrants, not the people.

Lol, and what do you think will establish "facts-as-they-really-are"? CAMERA?
CAMERA does translations. You can dispute their accuracy if you wish. Condemning them as an organization regardless of their actions makes as much sense as condemning someone as an "eternal enemy" and worthy of being killed simply because they were born an Arab or Jew.

Spare me your condescendence.
If there is a better way to teach somebody whose hubris convinces him he knows everything, I'm all ears.

Strife in Syria or in any of the countries you listed, has absolutely nothing to do with Israel
Do you really believe that, how many Arabs do you tell this to, and what is their reaction?

:lol: Why people get so upset when Israel is being criticized for one issue or another.
Because even if you don't accept that love of Israel is the foundation of human happiness you should be able to see that unjust criticism of Israel - the promotion of blind hatred against its Jews - is one of the immoral supports of today's miseries throughout the region.
 
Because even if you don't accept that love of Israel is the foundation of human happiness you should be able to see that unjust criticism of Israel - the promotion of blind hatred against its Jews - is one of the immoral supports of today's miseries throughout the region.







You are welcome.
 
False flagger RFS spammer is really frustrated. So some NGO clowns found two cases of unjust killing as THEY think so in 2013. Again not a single post on Syria, Egypt, Iraq, Afghanistan and "his" Latin America.



You are welcome.
Every nation has traitors and degenerates. Here what this example is saying: if Jew is ready to bow and wave Palestinian fag he is a good Jew and could be spared. But of Jew thinks that he can live in his own country like other nations - he is an evil Zionist and must be killed.
 
Jews are cowards what do you expect, they only know how to kill the weak pallys. Even though the Jews have the latest military equipment they keep begging America to attack Iran for them. Hell even a small Lebanese militia kicked their ***.
 
Back
Top Bottom