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TURNING POINT IN THE HISTORY OF INDIAN SUBCONTINENT

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The turning point in the decline of india was during the reign of harshavardhana,and late gupta age when the trend began to reward the officials of the bureaucracy with land grants instead of cash.Slowly these became hereditary positions and the efficiency of the bureaucracy and central authority was destroyed,leading to rise of feudalism.
If u notice the legacy of central authority was strictly maintained in earlier empires maurya and early gupta period and land grants were rare ,but from the late gupta this changed.Thus the legacy of a centrally controlled united indian empire was lost and all these feudatories when oppurtunity arose became independent small entities fighting among each other.Political unity was destroyed.
Unlike europe which too had its problems with feudalism they had a renaissance where they recounted the glory days of rome and the nation state concept was born,we never had our renaissance till after independence when we finally crushed feudalism.

Another was the growth of the caste system.Originally this used to be a profession based system mainly for convenience and intermarriage and changing castes was common.But gradually became hereditary and totally divided the indian people.

The feudalism and caste system which grew during early medieval era were the bane in the history of india i feel.

Perfect. It was in fact this gradual de-monetisation of the economy and the administration that led to a great many ills in the nature of government and civil administration. If we look at the subsequent history of India, we will find that this legacy, initiated, as you very correctly stated, in the late Gupta period, continued through the period of the incursion of the Turks, the Afghans and, occasionally, the Persians (Mahmud of Ghazni might count as a Persian, and Nadir Shah certainly would, while Shah Abbas' jerking the chain of the Mughals was a completely different matter, more in the realm of international relations than in the competition for India).

Austerlitz, it's good to see you in this discussion.

I also want to remind you, since you talked about our finally achieving our 'renaissance' after independence through crushing feudalism, that we are here talking of two altogether different things, which you have obviously compressed to save time and space. The Renaissance marked the cultural renovation of Europe; the political renovation started with an event which still has not taken place in the sub-continent, the Treaty of Westphalia. With the principle of cujus regio, ejus religio, nation-states were born, and the impulse for the growth of true secularism, not the bastardized version that we suffer in India, got space and oxygen to grow in Europe. That is still to happen in India, I feel, and whether it is going to happen in Pakistan sooner or it is going to happen later is beyond my forecasting skills. As a matter of fact, I feel that the Bangladeshis will beat both India and Pakistan to it, as they are closer to being a nation-state in spirit than either of the other two.

Most of you will probably get to see how this fascinating process works itself out.

Having said all of which, I keep my vote on the Mauryas. Without that vast centralizing impulse, the whole of Indian history to follow would have been the history of central Asia: a formless, shapeless, chaotic mass of states heaving around with no clear direction, goal or purpose.
 
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We are trying to be multi-cultural, like the Brits, and that will fail/is failing, like the Brits.
Ecrasez l'infame!!!

Joe we are all intensely religious people. That is not going to change in the near future nor should it.

Having said that, where do you feel we started out wrong and what can we do about it today?

A uniform civil code a good start perhaps?

No religious or caste based reservation? Affirmative action?

But I agree. We should be culture congruent and weed out regressive and backward foreign cultural cues from our society.
 
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whoever the raysn might have been,they are not a drop in the bucket.

There are three races mixed in India,almost everyone is mixed,some less or more than others.

Caucasoid,Mongloid & Australoid.

But the real mixing happened from ones temperment and culture,not from races.

Thats why you ll find all complexions,features etc in all caste types.



You are perfectly ignorant.

But you are perfect,i give you that.



More than books,learn to observe around you keenly.

Those are rather harsh pronouncements. I agree that Developereo is going far afield with this speculative thing, but it is a hypothesis.

And as for your advice to Indushek to observe rather than use books, I found that pretty bizarre myself. History from personal observation? Genetics from personal observation? Really?
 
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Joe we are all intensely religious people. That is not going to change in the near future nor should it.

Having said that, where do you feel we started out wrong and what can we do about it today?

A uniform civil code a good start perhaps?

No religious or caste based reservation? Affirmative action?

The foundation principle: no religion - none whatsoever - in public life, in our public ceremonies. No lamp-lighting, no swastika, no damn' Ayutha Pooja, no nothing!

All the rest follows. That includes an active affirmative action programme, aimed at the Dalit population as a whole, in every sphere, not just education, and Muslim kids, specifically in education, and adults in housing, and a very serious and sustained campaign to release our 'adivasis' from intrusion and cultural genocide.

I am not a moderate.

PS: That includes shooting to kill when idiots take to the streets, proclaiming that they are 'hurt' about this, that or the other. Hindus, Sikhs, Muslims, Christians, Buddhists, hey, even Parsis, and I had to reach out to left field to bring myself to say that.
 
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Those are rather harsh pronouncements. I agree that Developereo is going far afield with this speculative thing, but it is a hypothesis.

And as for your advice to Indushek to observe rather than use books, I found that pretty bizarre myself. History from personal observation? Genetics from personal observation? Really?

Indeed,i observe features of people all the time,

well,am not a bi,from an academic point of view.

I learn a lot like that,I ask questions,where they are from,what they are,everything.

I dont agree with that,I am all for cultural symbols.

All poojas,all rituals,i see no reason to ban them.

If at all ban smoking,drinking or tax them like crazy.
 
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People can be as intensely religious as they like, in the privacy of their homes, in their mandirs, their masjids, their churches, their gurdwaras, their aviaries, whatever. Bring it out and disturb the peace (where bringing it out is disturbing the peace, and, first time, you are hit with a fine; second time, it's community service and a fine; third time, it's atta peeso time.

How about the muezzin's 5 am adhan?

Un-amplified, do your worst. Use a speaker, and I have the right to use my gun (there's a mosque at the end of the road, and the regular four calls during the day are just fine, even though they call out in a cracked, unmusical, really grating manner, but the first early morning call is a killer. One of these days, I'm going to snap).
 
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But Joe, the "true" secular countries have the streets glittering and carol singers in lusty synchronicity, with genial white bearded pot bellied men with kids on their laps at every street corner.

Why should my people not burst bombs, paint each other purple, or flay the skins off their backs with hooks and razors?
 
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But Joe, the "true" secular countries have the streets glittering and carol singers in lusty synchronicity, with genial white bearded pot bellied men with kids on their laps at every street corner.

Why should my people not burst bombs, paint each other purple, or flay the skins off their backs with hooks and razors?

I'm not saying ban the Muharram processions. Let me expand that. You are allowed to use the public thoroughfare, for instance, if you are licensed to do it. You are allowed to go carol-singing if your neighbours don't object. You are allowed to solicit, which is what those fatsoes with the Santa Claus are doing, if you have a municipal license. I'm saying this shouldn't be allowed to come into government work and government property. That specifically doesn't include rituals that are part of the tradition of a force, such as swearing in recruits in single-class regiments.
 
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I'm not saying ban the Muharram processions.

Why not Joe?

You are asking us to keep our religion indoors.

What's special about Muharram now?

No patakas on Diwali.

No rang on Holi.

No biryani on Eid.

No aarti during Pujo.

No hormone frenzied mating dances during Navratri Garba.

No midnight mass with babes in impossibly short black dresses on Christmas eve.

India would be a grey colorless land Joe. :(
 
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That was just an example. These others are just that sort. I object to playing Holi, and nobody fiddles with me. That's because it's Calcutta. In Delhi, I wouldn't get away, I'd get destroyed.

PS: OK, let's take them one by one:

No rang on Holi on unwilling persons.
No patakas on Diwali.
Biryani on Eid? How is that public?
No aarti during Pujo if amplified.
I'm not too sure about Garba and those short dresses, although the churches I've been to don't do short dresses.

Let's get the colour out.
 
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People can be as intensely religious as they like, in the privacy of their homes, in their mandirs, their masjids, their churches, their gurdwaras, their aviaries, whatever. Bring it out and disturb the peace (where bringing it out is disturbing the peace, and, first time, you are hit with a fine; second time, it's community service and a fine; third time, it's atta peeso time.



Un-amplified, do your worst. Use a speaker, and I have the right to use my gun (there's a mosque at the end of the road, and the regular four calls during the day are just fine, even though they call out in a cracked, unmusical, really grating manner, but the first early morning call is a killer. One of these days, I'm going to snap).

Ban is a ban,total ban.
 
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