Turks, Mongols and a Persian Secretarial Class in Early Delhi Sultanate

[Water Car Engineer]

Thank you for proving your butthurtness over "Turko-Mongols". Turkic peoples have at least 6 indepented states while you Iranians have only Iran and and tiny Tajikistan which is surrounded by Turkic states and Turkic peoples. 15 % of the population of Tajikistan are Uzbeks anyway. Turks usually don't give a **** about Iranians but many of you seem to be totally obssesed with us and Mongols because your ancestors were literally ruled and conquered by them

If your Anatolian and dont look like Mongols or Turkman type peoples in Central Asia guess what?

 

[Charon]

If your Anatolian and dont look like Mongols or Turkman type peoples in Central Asia guess what?

Turks themselves have 7-10 % Mongoloid admixture on average. It's a fairytale imagination that some "Mongoloid" looking nomads were able to to spread their language to dozens of Anatolians without mixing with them. Turkmens weren't fully Mongoloid when they conquered Anatolia, as Turkmens from Turkmenistan have also only 15-20 % Mongoloid admixture. In genereal parlance: The average Turks carries the genes of the conquerers and the conquered ones

 

[Water Car Engineer]

Turks themselves have 7-10 % Mongoloid admixture on average. It's a fairytale imagination that some "Mongoloid" looking nomads were able to to spread their language to dozens of Anatolians without mixing with them. Turkmens weren't fully Mongoloid when they conquered Anatolia, as Turkmens from Turkmenistan have also only 15-20 % Mongoloid admixture. In genereal parlance: The average Turks carries the genes of the conquerers and the conquered ones

And what? African Americans have up to 15% European in them. Iranians probably also have traces of Turkic, Semitic, etc. too. I see Afro Americans calling them Irish, etc.

 

[Charon]

And what? African Americans have up to 15% European in them. Iranians probably also have traces of Turkic, Semitic, etc. too. I see Afro Americans calling them Irish, etc.

It's just because you said that we don't have genetically anything in common with other Turkics which is false. The Mongoloid admixture in Iranians is not really worth mentioning and the European admixture in African Americans is a result of slavery unlike Turks which was more a result of intermixing with native Anatolians

 

[Mahmut Babur Saka]

Little ungrateful wretched Arab refugee from Islamist persecution whose sorry arse we saved, just be merry while you are still allowed here. It may not last very long...

Or before Malik Ishaq gets you...

You primitive barbaric nomads have the audacity to imagine you can civilize others, civilize the first civilization in the world!

You primitives are not yet civilized till today, blowing up each other for your sects and to collect your rewards...

That day even you were saying that Europe should not allow extremist Islamists.

Wow wow wow
Ok that a christian, jew, atheist, etc says something like that is normal but a Hindoe is critisising a Muslim?? Dude get a life.. Who is praying to an oliphant thats waving with an electrical device were u can read Duracell in big letters.. Who discriminating felow humans and treat them much worser then animals (you may not even touch them)? Whos praying to rats? Whos praying to monkeys? Where is a cow much much valuabler then a human life? Where do you have a million "self" blinded childeren as beggers? Where are they killing little babies cauze they are girls and u have to pay the wedding of a girl? and many many thing like that..
Maybe we dont understand youre habits and beliefs but we do respect them.. you cant hear from a Muslim from somalia or a muslim from Algeria whos insluting a Hindu because of his fate.. thats the diffrence between U and US. So keep moving? thumbs up for this morron

 

[RangerPK]

A bunch of barbaric primitive invaders.

We have nothing to do with them. That is an eminently forgettable and sad part of our history (and world history) when a bunch of uncivilized nomads were on rampage.

Muslims suffered greatly in the rampage as well.

If you are a South Indian, then you don't have anything to do with Muslim empires. If I am not mistaken, South Indians managed to evade most of the rule of Muslim empires expanding in the Subcontinent. The British gifted South Indian the "Indian" identity, thanks to an artificial colony known as British India.

 

[RangerPK]

Lolz, we even butt-hurted Indians.

You have no idea.

If ur talking about the composition of the nobility-
Delhi sultanate nobility was nearly entirely central asian turks and later afghans,balban purged all non turks from administration including indian muslims.Firuz shah tughlaq loosened this a little.During the lodis main nobility was afghan,same during sher shah.

Under mughals if we follow mughal texts then nobility was

In 1595 at the peak of akbar's reign-In terms of percentage of mansabs granted-
Princes 3.25%
Iranian nobles-22%
Turani nobles[uzbek/central asian]-37.3%

Together these 2 sections made up the 'old nobility' or khanzadas.
Apart from this-
afghans-3.25%
Shaikhzadas or indian muslims-11.3%
Other muslims-[arabs,saints etc]-5%
Rajputs-16.2%
Other hindu zamindars-1.2%


Now at the beginning of aurangzeb's rule -

Princes-1.5%
Iranis-27%
Turanis-24%
Afghans-6.56%
Indian muslims-11.3%
Other muslims-9.4%
Rajputs-16.8%
Marathas-2.5%
Other hindus-1.3%


Considering the predominance of persian nobles at court as administrators it also helped spread of persian,court language of both sultanates and mughals.

There was NO India in that time. There were Native Muslims of the subcontinent, coming from different kingdom in that regions, which were hundreds of them

You mean, "Native Muslims, Not "Indian Muslims. These people did not even call themselves that.

India is an "identity" created by the British, thanks to their colony known as British India.

 

[Mahmut Babur Saka]

If I start talking about who you pray and follow and the qualities of your pbuh (startiig from love for 6 year old kids), there is more than a good chance you will have an accelerated journey to meet your promised 72 in double quick time.

Rapine, genocide, slavery on a massive scale, dhimmitude, terror, flogging, stoning to death, incessant war on the non Muslims, killing the murtads (apostates) of the non preferred sects, putting hundreds of millions of women behind that ghastly all enveloping tent...

Yes, I won't get into any of this as we need to maintain the difference between you and us.

Listen man I absolutly dont want to insult ppl from the Hindu religion. I've been born and raised in Belgium and do know many "gold-hearted" Hindu's and Sikh's, the best relations between my colleague's is with an half Indian half Belgian and called Ajay what I want to say is that I know a bit of youre habits, religion etc in person not from the media, films or internet and I do respect youre identity and admire some of youre habits. But this doesn't change the facts that I count yet above. You know that for sure, that these things happens in India. Maybe I wrote it in a rude maner but they are true, every one knows it and you too..

My answers for your "false" charges..
1 Rapine.. does happens all over the world especially in "INDIA" this has nothing do to with a religion but the beast in every single human..
(In Islam a person Man/Woman may have not any kind of sexual contact exept his Husband/Wife. Muslims who do this are doing a big sin)
2 Genocide.. What Genocide? You mentioned the Armenian issue? (I can give you thousands of proves that "thing" is one big joke, can u give me 1 real objectives prove about this issue? PM me)
Or the Algerian-France? Libia-Italia? Congo-Belgium? Somali-US? Azerbaijan-Armenia(Russia)? Afghanistan-Russia? Bosnia-Serbes? East Turkistan-China? Arakan-Burma? Wich one wich genocide?
Wich genocide has the mulims ever done?
3 Slavery in Islam??? Dude the guy that has found the "Azan" and first preach was a black slave that was been freed by our Prophet s.a.v. and called Bilal-i Habesi (Bilal from Ethiopia). Our Propeht s.a.v. said many times that every single human been is equal men/women kid/elder slave/noble their are rules and lines of respect between them but EVERYONE is equal!! The clothes, personal belongings of this man still remains today in Istanbul Topkapi just look at them via google or something his clothes (its very mubarek for me) does look even worser than those of a slave and he had much much more power then Sultans, Kings, Emperors but still wears clothes of a sheperd and his best friends were freed slaves.
4 Dhimmitude?? How many muslim missionaries did you see? How many moske's can you find in Africa, in places where ppl die from the hunger who give you food when you preach 3 times "Our Lord"??
If ppl from another religion who's trying to convince you that you must chose his relegion is disturbing ok youre right.. But try to look from another perspective those ppl are convinced of their own relegion and they are convinced that they are walking the "right path" and just want to help you and show their own "right" path.. So its not mentioned to mock you but to help. If u dont want that just say to him/her and you got an end on you discussion. We never forced not-muslims to convert their religion if you want a prove check the Ottoman Empire you can find proves for more then 600 years..
5 Terror? Al-Qaeda=Taliban is an Emperialistic Puppet that was formed against the Sovjet Union in Afghanistan by the CIA himself. You can even find photos of young Bin Laden whos getting structure's and drills from American officers. Just be objective and search for 30 min on google and you will have your own proves.. And the other one "Hamas" is not a terrorist group but an organization of patriotic Palestines who want to free their land against the occupiares. Ok they haven been done many things that any single human been can aprove but just imagine you live in Gazza (the biggest open air prison of the world) Jewish settlers came one day to your village and claims it. Your father oppose them and get killed. You take the rest of your familly and want to flee to a place (country) where u can live peacfully but you cant cauze u are in a prison.. so u just move somewhere else in this prison where these gyz can bother you less. You try to start a new live in a "carbage made" home without any money, food, medicines or clean water and one night a dozen of Israil Jets drops a bom on your so called home cauze they saw 1 "terorist" fleeing that way. Every single person in your family died.. What would u do? Just move somewhere else in your prison? Or strike them back with everything you got? even with stones or a bomsuite..
6 Flogging? dont know the exact meaning of that words but if u mean overrated penalties in the society.. Well who dont? Every society has his own rules and habits since the excisting of the human been and some of them can be cruel for you but this is valid for me too if I look too other cultures/society except of mine own.
7 Stoning to death.. In every places all over the world that has not been developed enough happens such things.. A man has been burend a live with tiers of a car around him and petrol in Nigeria (I think) just a few month ago. I'm sure you watched. The Indian girl and boy who has been raped and murderd in the bus. And the women who cheated his husband who get stoned alive in Soedan. Now plz tell me witch one is worser? wich one is direct linked with a religion? witch one can tell the attidude of a whole nation?
8 you mean "Jihad" you absolutly dont know what Jihad is!! The only thing what you know about this thing is probarly from an article that has been written by a wilders,lapen,himler,dewinter en co minded white skinned raciscts (who hates your ppl more than mine in europe )
Jihad doesnt mean "kill everybody that doesnt believe in Islam" jihad means that all muslims must fight the "Kafirs" and "Munafiks" whos been oppressing the indigenous muslim population in their own lands!!
And I cant see nothing wrong in it. Do you?
9 Murtads.. their we are again. Wich relegion alows convertion to an other then his own? the christian inquisision? the jews who nailed Isa p.o.b.h. (Jesus) becauze he pronounced judaisim a bit diffrent then them? Or the Hindu's who has been the slightest tolerance in other religions? Be honest..
10 Women!! my favourite part
(I've tried to litteraly translate the verses in Kuran-i Kerim )
Kuran-i Kerim 49/13: O human been! I created you as a male and female!
Without any doubts the most "ranked, favourite, better" between you for Allah
is the one who is the "furthest, the best" in TAKVA (devotion for god)
16/72,4/1,4/32,9/71,2/(187),16/97,9/67 and these are all the ohter verses in Kuran-i Kerim thats tells us that men are women are completly equal at birth its the deeds thats give them the ranking not the sexuality..
and a bit history..
Womens vote rights:
1918 Azerbaijan (muslim)
1923 Turkey (muslim)
1944 France/Belgium
1946 Italy
1947 India/Pakistan
1952 Greece
1963 Iran
1971 Suisse
1984 Lichtenstein

So wath's the diffrence between a muslim country and a non-muslim country if it is the case of womens right? (And if u really think that we repress our women so hard why do Muslim girls in Europe, Usa, Australia etc still mary only with muslim man? If they want they can put every represser of her in a jail with a single phone call (Believe me they LOVE to put a non-West Europian looking man to jail and certainly when its come to this case so they can "prove" once more how EVIL islam is? Just ask this to yourself..
(In the begin of the 20th century every single piece of Muslim land except Anatolia was occupied by non-muslim powers and didnt even got a goverment and still most of them dont have it. What they got is just an amphitheater with puppets whos got a brandmark with "made in USA" on it. You should even better known then me what repression MEANS in your own country by foreign powers.)

Maybe I can never change you mind and opinions about Muslims and Islam and thats your own damn right that nobody can take it from you.
But plz plz I beg you the next time you insult ppl just know a bit about them..
who they really are, how they really belief in something, why they act like that..
Just set yourself in our shoes how it should feel.. U must know that feeling is after the experiences with the Brittains that your nation got.

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

There was NO India in that time. There were Native Muslims of the subcontinent, coming from different kingdom in that regions, which were hundreds of them

You mean, "Native Muslims, Not "Indian Muslims. These people did not even call themselves that.

India is an "identity" created by the British, thanks to their colony known as British India.

Yes native muslims is also an applicable word.I agree with first part of ur post.
As for second part british creating india,i understand ur desperation to prove this to yourself and others of ur mindset but really why bother?The word india may be foreign but aryabarta,uttarapatha,dakshinapatha,bharatvarsha,mahabharata are not.

 

[niaz]

It's amazing the self loathing of the converts with no identity. Then they cry when others make the sketches on "draw a ******* day".

Followers of a pathetic cult by one person of questionable character (to put it mildly, very mildly).

Running off to kaffir crusader countries to live on their charity and then claim that Muslims countries need to get rid of non Muslims (including Christians, to whose countries that these primitives have run to for the reverse hizarat).

A remarkably unsophisticated and selfish bunch that understands only one language.

And cries when it is given a reply in that language after trying everything else.

I think members of this august forum need to grow up. It appears many are still acting like school kids. Every debate rather than limited to an intellectual discourse; comes down to Pakistanis vs Indians or Hindus versus Muslims.

No one denies that India has a very old and established civilization. It is also a melting pot that has over the countless centuries absorbed numerous invaders and gave birth to a diverse, multi-ethnic & multi-lingual culture.

It is also historical fact that the subcontinent with her fertile soil and rainfall is a very rich country. That is why every adventurer or horde who have little or nothing have tried to conquer or plunder India; more like horny young men after the luscious maiden.

Invasion & plunder of the subcontinent by the nomadic hordes has been happening since the dawn of history. Indus civilisation was destroyed by the barbaric Aryans tribes. Then came the Yavanas (Greeks), Sakas (Scythians), Kushans (Yu-chi), followed by the Persians, Hunas (Ephthalites) etc. before Islam and the Arabs, Turks, Mongols and Afghans after Islam. English came from the sea but motives were exactly the same.

Countless races such as Jats, Rajputs etc. who are now considered indigenous Indians are in fact progeny of the invaders who made the subcontinent their home. Majority of the Pakistani Punjabis & Sindhis such as Gujjars, Gakhhars, Jats, Rajputs, and Chandios etc. are also the same except that they converted to Islam.

Whatever happened is water under the bridge. Since no one from the present generation was involved; recriminations about the past is puerile and nothing more than the waste of breath.

 

[Vinod2070]

I think members of this august forum need to grow up. It appears many are still acting like school kids. Every debate rather than limited to an intellectual discourse; comes down to Pakistanis vs Indians or Hindus versus Muslims.

No one denies that India has a very old and established civilization. It is also a melting pot that has over the countless centuries absorbed numerous invaders and gave birth to a diverse, multi-ethnic & multi-lingual culture.

It is also historical fact that the subcontinent with her fertile soil and rainfall is a very rich country. That is why every adventurer or horde who have little or nothing have tried to conquer or plunder India; more like horny young men after the luscious maiden.

Invasion & plunder of the subcontinent by the nomadic hordes has been happening since the dawn of history. Indus civilisation was destroyed by the barbaric Aryans tribes. Then came the Yavanas (Greeks), Sakas (Scythians), Kushans (Yu-chi), followed by the Persians, Hunas (Ephthalites) etc. before Islam and the Arabs, Turks, Mongols and Afghans after Islam. English came from the sea but motives were exactly the same.

Countless races such as Jats, Rajputs etc. who are now considered indigenous Indians are in fact progeny of the invaders who made the subcontinent their home. Majority of the Pakistani Punjabis & Sindhis such as Gujjars, Gakhhars, Jats, Rajputs, and Chandios etc. are also the same except that they converted to Islam.

Whatever happened is water under the bridge. Since no one from the present generation was involved; recriminations about the past is puerile and nothing more than the waste of breath.

To an extent I agree with you and also I apologize for the harsh words. They were in response to some earlier posts that were in bad taste.

I do have a problem with a narrative that makes India look like a "Sarai" where every barbaric plunderer has the same rights as the "natives". This narrative was used by colonialists to justify their aggression and there is no need for us to fall for it completely.

As an example, the white colonialists called the black areas in Southern Africa as Buntustans, to signify that the black people there were also outsiders like these white Apartheid invaders from Europe.

Anyway, I agree it is water under the bridge.

So much butt hurt Bharti, burnol is needed to calm it down. Anyway the pathetic thing is you guys worship the same gods and speak languages which were imposed upon your ancestors by Vedic Aryans

Even now at least 90% of bhartis are low caste according to Hindu religion. So think before opening your mouth next time

Don't obsess with us. Just worry about the fact that out of hundreds of your sects, all except one are automatically going to enjoy the hellfire in daujakh as per your pbuh. And no one know which one is the correct one?

So, are you sure you happen to belong to the right sect? How?

Also, you are still Ajlaf in Islam and will never become Ashraf whatever you do.

So conversion didn't really change things much for you.

If you are a South Indian, then you don't have anything to do with Muslim empires. If I am not mistaken, South Indians managed to evade most of the rule of Muslim empires expanding in the Subcontinent. The British gifted South Indian the "Indian" identity, thanks to an artificial colony known as British India.

I am not a South Indian.

We North Indians have more contempt for the fil.thy barbaric invaders as they experienced the barbaric uncivilized fil.th more.

Anyway, for people like you, the Ummah is the only real nation and you are Arabs and Turks and Persians and Afghans. So it is a waste of time talking to you about "nation" and "artificial".

 

[Vinod2070]

Who has no identity? Turks?
I have nothing against indians but its not our country who has English as official language, we are not the ones who use tons of Skin whitening products to look more European.
So dont talk about identity of Turks, if you have a problem with your own identity!

And to the second part about muslims, we Turks have a way more tolerant understanding of religion than Indians who still have archaic Caste-system in 21th century.

I have nothing against the present day Turks and am friends with some of them.

Let's not get into religious comparisons and which one is more archaic. We are not the ones killing hundreds of thousands in the name of sects and "wajib ul qatl" and religious terror all over the world.

Guess the followers of which religion are doing that today. In this day and age.

Anyway, let's move on.

 

[-SINAN-]

We are not the ones killing hundreds of thousands in the name of sects and "wajib ul qatl" and religious terror all over the world.

We "as Turks" are not doing those things you mentioned.

 

[Vinod2070]

Listen man I absolutly dont want to insult ppl from the Hindu religion. I've been born and raised in Belgium and do know many "gold-hearted" Hindu's and Sikh's, the best relations between my colleague's is with an half Indian half Belgian and called Ajay what I want to say is that I know a bit of youre habits, religion etc in person not from the media, films or internet and I do respect youre identity and admire some of youre habits. But this doesn't change the facts that I count yet above. You know that for sure, that these things happens in India. Maybe I wrote it in a rude maner but they are true, every one knows it and you too..

My answers for your "false" charges..
1 Rapine.. does happens all over the world especially in "INDIA" this has nothing do to with a religion but the beast in every single human..
(In Islam a person Man/Woman may have not any kind of sexual contact exept his Husband/Wife. Muslims who do this are doing a big sin)
2 Genocide.. What Genocide? You mentioned the Armenian issue? (I can give you thousands of proves that "thing" is one big joke, can u give me 1 real objectives prove about this issue? PM me)
Or the Algerian-France? Libia-Italia? Congo-Belgium? Somali-US? Azerbaijan-Armenia(Russia)? Afghanistan-Russia? Bosnia-Serbes? East Turkistan-China? Arakan-Burma? Wich one wich genocide?
Wich genocide has the mulims ever done?
3 Slavery in Islam??? Dude the guy that has found the "Azan" and first preach was a black slave that was been freed by our Prophet s.a.v. and called Bilal-i Habesi (Bilal from Ethiopia). Our Propeht s.a.v. said many times that every single human been is equal men/women kid/elder slave/noble their are rules and lines of respect between them but EVERYONE is equal!! The clothes, personal belongings of this man still remains today in Istanbul Topkapi just look at them via google or something his clothes (its very mubarek for me) does look even worser than those of a slave and he had much much more power then Sultans, Kings, Emperors but still wears clothes of a sheperd and his best friends were freed slaves.
4 Dhimmitude?? How many muslim missionaries did you see? How many moske's can you find in Africa, in places where ppl die from the hunger who give you food when you preach 3 times "Our Lord"??
If ppl from another religion who's trying to convince you that you must chose his relegion is disturbing ok youre right.. But try to look from another perspective those ppl are convinced of their own relegion and they are convinced that they are walking the "right path" and just want to help you and show their own "right" path.. So its not mentioned to mock you but to help. If u dont want that just say to him/her and you got an end on you discussion. We never forced not-muslims to convert their religion if you want a prove check the Ottoman Empire you can find proves for more then 600 years..
5 Terror? Al-Qaeda=Taliban is an Emperialistic Puppet that was formed against the Sovjet Union in Afghanistan by the CIA himself. You can even find photos of young Bin Laden whos getting structure's and drills from American officers. Just be objective and search for 30 min on google and you will have your own proves.. And the other one "Hamas" is not a terrorist group but an organization of patriotic Palestines who want to free their land against the occupiares. Ok they haven been done many things that any single human been can aprove but just imagine you live in Gazza (the biggest open air prison of the world) Jewish settlers came one day to your village and claims it. Your father oppose them and get killed. You take the rest of your familly and want to flee to a place (country) where u can live peacfully but you cant cauze u are in a prison.. so u just move somewhere else in this prison where these gyz can bother you less. You try to start a new live in a "carbage made" home without any money, food, medicines or clean water and one night a dozen of Israil Jets drops a bom on your so called home cauze they saw 1 "terorist" fleeing that way. Every single person in your family died.. What would u do? Just move somewhere else in your prison? Or strike them back with everything you got? even with stones or a bomsuite..
6 Flogging? dont know the exact meaning of that words but if u mean overrated penalties in the society.. Well who dont? Every society has his own rules and habits since the excisting of the human been and some of them can be cruel for you but this is valid for me too if I look too other cultures/society except of mine own.
7 Stoning to death.. In every places all over the world that has not been developed enough happens such things.. A man has been burend a live with tiers of a car around him and petrol in Nigeria (I think) just a few month ago. I'm sure you watched. The Indian girl and boy who has been raped and murderd in the bus. And the women who cheated his husband who get stoned alive in Soedan. Now plz tell me witch one is worser? wich one is direct linked with a religion? witch one can tell the attidude of a whole nation?
8 you mean "Jihad" you absolutly dont know what Jihad is!! The only thing what you know about this thing is probarly from an article that has been written by a wilders,lapen,himler,dewinter en co minded white skinned raciscts (who hates your ppl more than mine in europe )
Jihad doesnt mean "kill everybody that doesnt believe in Islam" jihad means that all muslims must fight the "Kafirs" and "Munafiks" whos been oppressing the indigenous muslim population in their own lands!!
And I cant see nothing wrong in it. Do you?
9 Murtads.. their we are again. Wich relegion alows convertion to an other then his own? the christian inquisision? the jews who nailed Isa p.o.b.h. (Jesus) becauze he pronounced judaisim a bit diffrent then them? Or the Hindu's who has been the slightest tolerance in other religions? Be honest..
10 Women!! my favourite part
(I've tried to litteraly translate the verses in Kuran-i Kerim )
Kuran-i Kerim 49/13: O human been! I created you as a male and female!
Without any doubts the most "ranked, favourite, better" between you for Allah
is the one who is the "furthest, the best" in TAKVA (devotion for god)
16/72,4/1,4/32,9/71,2/(187),16/97,9/67 and these are all the ohter verses in Kuran-i Kerim thats tells us that men are women are completly equal at birth its the deeds thats give them the ranking not the sexuality..
and a bit history..
Womens vote rights:
1918 Azerbaijan (muslim)
1923 Turkey (muslim)
1944 France/Belgium
1946 Italy
1947 India/Pakistan
1952 Greece
1963 Iran
1971 Suisse
1984 Lichtenstein

So wath's the diffrence between a muslim country and a non-muslim country if it is the case of womens right? (And if u really think that we repress our women so hard why do Muslim girls in Europe, Usa, Australia etc still mary only with muslim man? If they want they can put every represser of her in a jail with a single phone call (Believe me they LOVE to put a non-West Europian looking man to jail and certainly when its come to this case so they can "prove" once more how EVIL islam is? Just ask this to yourself..
(In the begin of the 20th century every single piece of Muslim land except Anatolia was occupied by non-muslim powers and didnt even got a goverment and still most of them dont have it. What they got is just an amphitheater with puppets whos got a brandmark with "made in USA" on it. You should even better known then me what repression MEANS in your own country by foreign powers.)

Maybe I can never change you mind and opinions about Muslims and Islam and thats your own damn right that nobody can take it from you.
But plz plz I beg you the next time you insult ppl just know a bit about them..
who they really are, how they really belief in something, why they act like that..
Just set yourself in our shoes how it should feel.. U must know that feeling is after the experiences with the Brittains that your nation got.

A very long post, difficult to read it all.

You started the religious insult. I have nothing against you or any Turks.

Just don't insult other religions and you won't get it back. It is that simple really.

We "as Turks" are not doing those things you mentioned.

You talked about "archaic religious practices". Anyway, let's move on.

 

[asad71]

Listen man I absolutly dont want to insult ppl from the Hindu religion. I've been born and raised in Belgium and do know many "gold-hearted" Hindu's and Sikh's, the best relations between my colleague's is with an half Indian half Belgian and called Ajay what I want to say is that I know a bit of youre habits, religion etc in person not from the media, films or internet and I do respect youre identity and admire some of youre habits. But this doesn't change the facts that I count yet above. You know that for sure, that these things happens in India. Maybe I wrote it in a rude maner but they are true, every one knows it and you too..

My answers for your "false" charges..
1 Rapine.. does happens all over the world especially in "INDIA" this has nothing do to with a religion but the beast in every single human..
(In Islam a person Man/Woman may have not any kind of sexual contact exept his Husband/Wife. Muslims who do this are doing a big sin)
2 Genocide.. What Genocide? You mentioned the Armenian issue? (I can give you thousands of proves that "thing" is one big joke, can u give me 1 real objectives prove about this issue? PM me)
Or the Algerian-France? Libia-Italia? Congo-Belgium? Somali-US? Azerbaijan-Armenia(Russia)? Afghanistan-Russia? Bosnia-Serbes? East Turkistan-China? Arakan-Burma? Wich one wich genocide?
Wich genocide has the mulims ever done?
3 Slavery in Islam??? Dude the guy that has found the "Azan" and first preach was a black slave that was been freed by our Prophet s.a.v. and called Bilal-i Habesi (Bilal from Ethiopia). Our Propeht s.a.v. said many times that every single human been is equal men/women kid/elder slave/noble their are rules and lines of respect between them but EVERYONE is equal!! The clothes, personal belongings of this man still remains today in Istanbul Topkapi just look at them via google or something his clothes (its very mubarek for me) does look even worser than those of a slave and he had much much more power then Sultans, Kings, Emperors but still wears clothes of a sheperd and his best friends were freed slaves.
4 Dhimmitude?? How many muslim missionaries did you see? How many moske's can you find in Africa, in places where ppl die from the hunger who give you food when you preach 3 times "Our Lord"??
If ppl from another religion who's trying to convince you that you must chose his relegion is disturbing ok youre right.. But try to look from another perspective those ppl are convinced of their own relegion and they are convinced that they are walking the "right path" and just want to help you and show their own "right" path.. So its not mentioned to mock you but to help. If u dont want that just say to him/her and you got an end on you discussion. We never forced not-muslims to convert their religion if you want a prove check the Ottoman Empire you can find proves for more then 600 years..
5 Terror? Al-Qaeda=Taliban is an Emperialistic Puppet that was formed against the Sovjet Union in Afghanistan by the CIA himself. You can even find photos of young Bin Laden whos getting structure's and drills from American officers. Just be objective and search for 30 min on google and you will have your own proves.. And the other one "Hamas" is not a terrorist group but an organization of patriotic Palestines who want to free their land against the occupiares. Ok they haven been done many things that any single human been can aprove but just imagine you live in Gazza (the biggest open air prison of the world) Jewish settlers came one day to your village and claims it. Your father oppose them and get killed. You take the rest of your familly and want to flee to a place (country) where u can live peacfully but you cant cauze u are in a prison.. so u just move somewhere else in this prison where these gyz can bother you less. You try to start a new live in a "carbage made" home without any money, food, medicines or clean water and one night a dozen of Israil Jets drops a bom on your so called home cauze they saw 1 "terorist" fleeing that way. Every single person in your family died.. What would u do? Just move somewhere else in your prison? Or strike them back with everything you got? even with stones or a bomsuite..
6 Flogging? dont know the exact meaning of that words but if u mean overrated penalties in the society.. Well who dont? Every society has his own rules and habits since the excisting of the human been and some of them can be cruel for you but this is valid for me too if I look too other cultures/society except of mine own.
7 Stoning to death.. In every places all over the world that has not been developed enough happens such things.. A man has been burend a live with tiers of a car around him and petrol in Nigeria (I think) just a few month ago. I'm sure you watched. The Indian girl and boy who has been raped and murderd in the bus. And the women who cheated his husband who get stoned alive in Soedan. Now plz tell me witch one is worser? wich one is direct linked with a religion? witch one can tell the attidude of a whole nation?
8 you mean "Jihad" you absolutly dont know what Jihad is!! The only thing what you know about this thing is probarly from an article that has been written by a wilders,lapen,himler,dewinter en co minded white skinned raciscts (who hates your ppl more than mine in europe )
Jihad doesnt mean "kill everybody that doesnt believe in Islam" jihad means that all muslims must fight the "Kafirs" and "Munafiks" whos been oppressing the indigenous muslim population in their own lands!!
And I cant see nothing wrong in it. Do you?
9 Murtads.. their we are again. Wich relegion alows convertion to an other then his own? the christian inquisision? the jews who nailed Isa p.o.b.h. (Jesus) becauze he pronounced judaisim a bit diffrent then them? Or the Hindu's who has been the slightest tolerance in other religions? Be honest..
10 Women!! my favourite part
(I've tried to litteraly translate the verses in Kuran-i Kerim )
Kuran-i Kerim 49/13: O human been! I created you as a male and female!
Without any doubts the most "ranked, favourite, better" between you for Allah
is the one who is the "furthest, the best" in TAKVA (devotion for god)
16/72,4/1,4/32,9/71,2/(187),16/97,9/67 and these are all the ohter verses in Kuran-i Kerim thats tells us that men are women are completly equal at birth its the deeds thats give them the ranking not the sexuality..
and a bit history..
Womens vote rights:
1918 Azerbaijan (muslim)
1923 Turkey (muslim)
1944 France/Belgium
1946 Italy
1947 India/Pakistan
1952 Greece
1963 Iran
1971 Suisse
1984 Lichtenstein

So wath's the diffrence between a muslim country and a non-muslim country if it is the case of womens right? (And if u really think that we repress our women so hard why do Muslim girls in Europe, Usa, Australia etc still mary only with muslim man? If they want they can put every represser of her in a jail with a single phone call (Believe me they LOVE to put a non-West Europian looking man to jail and certainly when its come to this case so they can "prove" once more how EVIL islam is? Just ask this to yourself..
(In the begin of the 20th century every single piece of Muslim land except Anatolia was occupied by non-muslim powers and didnt even got a goverment and still most of them dont have it. What they got is just an amphitheater with puppets whos got a brandmark with "made in USA" on it. You should even better known then me what repression MEANS in your own country by foreign powers.)

Maybe I can never change you mind and opinions about Muslims and Islam and thats your own damn right that nobody can take it from you.
But plz plz I beg you the next time you insult ppl just know a bit about them..
who they really are, how they really belief in something, why they act like that..
Just set yourself in our shoes how it should feel.. U must know that feeling is after the experiences with the Brittains that your nation got.

Women's suffrage in India was granted in 1949. Pakistani (including Bangladeshi) women got this in1947.