Turkish Tank Sees Pakistani, Saudi Interest.

[Silicon0000]

The best option Pakistan have, is to more focus on AK2. They may go for latest technology transfer and incorporation in AK2 from china, turkey, Ukraine or any where from world, which ever suited best for Pakistan.

 

[Blue Marlin]

The difference is that the Altay is a Turkish copy of some M1A1 and Leopard combined. While the Chinese T-99 is.......well.....the Chinese T-99



Pakistan's defense budget has crossed the $ 10 billion per year mark. They don't announce it to maintain a low key posture. By 2018-2020, their defense budget would be going north of $ 15 billion a year (as their economy improves). By 2022, it would be in the range of $ 18+ billion, surpassing Turkey!!

turkey's gdp is $822+ billion whilst pakistan's is $223+ billion. you need to have at least a 5% growth rate to be a good developing country. even bangladesh gdp growth is at 6.6% whilst pakistan is trailing behind at 4.4%

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

turkey's gdp is $822+ billion whilst pakistan's is $223+ billion. you need to have at least a 5% growth rate to be a good developing country. even bangladesh gdp growth is at 6.6% whilst pakistan is trailing behind at 4.4%

You have to consider Pakistan is in a STATE of WAR where as the other countries mentioned are not. Pakistan once out of the WAR has a greater potential for growth, not to mention the CPEC would also add to this hence could maintain a healthy GDP growth rate of 8+. Would having $18 bil defence budget be a problem then?

Sir this thread was started after high level Turkish official told their Parliament about our interest in this Tank. So we have to wait and see what is going on here


Are you sure about transfer of engine facility to Turkey by Ukraine and Ukrainian 1500 HP engine is not ready yet

Yes for transfer tech... however the engine was tested but it failed, work is going on to rectify the problems.

 

[Dazzler]

China used T72. But, its really battle hardened tank and it proved its performance in Syrian war. It take hit , but nothing stop this little beast.

Prove your claim that China used or uses t-72s in active service.

 

[Neptune]

The difference is that the Altay is a Turkish copy of some M1A1 and Leopard combined. While the Chinese T-99 is.......well.....the Chinese T-99

Let us clarify

Altay is not a copy. It came with ToT from K2 and license production of German engine.

Type 99...well I'd only laugh if you call Altay a copy in front of this tank considering that the Chinese is the master of copying stuff amd branding them as 'made in china'. Although I think they're doing a pretty good job with that though from their view.

Pakistan's defense budget has crossed the $ 10 billion per year mark. They don't announce it to maintain a low key posture. By 2018-2020, their defense budget would be going north of $ 15 billion a year (as their economy improves). By 2022, it would be in the range of $ 18+ billion, surpassing Turkey!!

So by 2022,,we keep it at 18 bn dollars?
Anyways, I'd have wanted to be kept this way and spend the future additional income to education. But yeah, we not supposed to be pacifist here are we.

TBH, I expect an economic leap from Pakistan once CPEC is operational and a solution basis in Afghanistan is set. Then the future defense spending may even be higher than you've proposed if we realistically think optimistic here.

 

[madmusti]

Let us clarify

Altay is not a copy. It came with ToT from K2 and license production of German engine.

Do we have the license ? Source ?

 

[HAIDER]

Prove your claim that China used or uses t-72s in active service.

"As just noted, the People’s Liberation Army still relies on the T-72 as its main battle tank. In addition, the Indian army operates the Soviet-built T-90, which is itself a derivative of the T-72."
Why China and India Want Russia's New Armata Battle Tank | The National Interest Blog

You should know by now China main battle tank is named change T72.

 

[Neptune]

Do we have the license ? Source ?

If I am not, we can produce it (may or maynot with the critical parts) but its strictly prohibited to tranfer or sell it to a third party.

 

[HAIDER]

how about upgrads ?i meant its old tank

Upgrades are never ending story, every country has its own resources and requirements.

pakistan is not going for 120mm smoothbore guns when it makes its own version of decebt 12mm guns and their ammo inhouse. regarding guided ammo, our tanks are compatible with reflex and Kombat series of anti tank laser guided HEAT rounds. apart of HEAT rounds, no tank ammo is guided.

on your MMW radar, AK series is equipped with RWRs and has an option for mmw radars due to open architecture and 1553 mux bus integration. plug and play stuff. Overall, AK was designed by keeping our requirements in view while Altay fulfils Turkey's requirements.



china never operated t-72..

and the t-72 has had many problems of its own such as poor armor, lack of fire control system till the t-72B version and a weak engine. it has many more hence we never opted for it though we showed interest in Yugoslavian M-84 at one stage but that was it.

Lately, Russian did lots of modification in T72. Having a Syrian tank driver interview about t72, but its in Russian. I can post the interview , if someone can translate.

Now South Korean K2 Black panther is also in the market and looking for buyers. Seems Altay and K2 same class.

Crew 3 men
Dimensions and weight
Weight 55 t
Length 10 m
Hull length 7.5 m
Width 3.6 m
Height 2.5 m
Armament
Main gun 120-mm / L55 smoothbore
Machine guns 1 x 12.7-mm, 1 x 7.62-mm
Elevation range ?
Traverse range 360 degrees
Combat load
Main gun 40 rounds
Machine guns 3 200 x 12.7, 12 000 x 7.62
Mobility
Engine MTU MB-883 Ka500 diesel
Engine power 1 500 hp
Maximum road speed 70 km/h
Range 430 km
Maneuverability
Gradient 60%
Side slope ?
Vertical step 1.3 m
Trench ~ 2.8 m
Fording 1.2 m
Fording with preparation 4.2 m

The K2 Black Panther main battle tank evolved from the XK2 programme. This next-generation MBT was developed in South Korea using indigenous technology only. It's development began in 1995 and a full scale production is expected in 2010-2011. The K2 Black Panther will replace the K1 main battle tanks. Currently the K2 is one of the most advanced main battle tank in the world, outclassing anything North Korea or China have. Furthermore it is the most expensive main battle tank to date, overtaking the Japanese Type 90 MBT.
This tank uses both modular composite armor of undisclosed type and Explosive Reactive Armor (ERA) blocks. It is also completed with an active protection system and countermeasures system. Protection of the K2 is broadly similar to the M1A2 Abrams MBT considering that the K2 is significantly lighter.
The Black Panther is armed with a 120-mm Rheinmetall smoothbore gun, completed with an autoloader. This MBT has a maximum rate of fire in 15 rounds per minute. It is worth mentioning that autoloader's is similar to that, used on the French Leclerc main battle tank.
It also has a very advanced fire control system, allowing to track and engage not only the main battle tanks, but low-flying helicopters as well. Maximum effective range of fire is up to 10 kilometers. Furthermore it's fire control system can spot, track and fire automatically at visible vehicle-size targets without needing any input from a human operator.
The 120-mm gun can fire variety of munitions, notably the KSTAM (Korean Smart Top-Attack Munition) rounds. These are smart target activated fire and forget projectiles, but shouldn't be confused with anti-tank guided missiles. The KSTAM has it's own guidance system, aided by four stabilizing fins. At the final stage a parachute will deploy to slow it's fall and accurately engage target. Such principle is broadly similar to mortar-launched anti-tank munitions. Furthermore the K-2 tank can fire KSTAM munitions from behind the cover. The KSTAM has a maximum effective range in 8 kilometers.
Secondary armament consists of coaxial 7.62-mm machine gun and anti-aircraft 12.7-mm K6 heavy machine gun, mounted on top of the roof. Both of these machine guns have a very respectable ammunition load (12 000 x 7.62-mm and 3 200 x 12.7-mm). Furthermore the K6 heavy machine gun has an automatic system, that identifies friend from a foe.
This main battle tank has a crew of three, including commander, gunner and driver.
Other features of the K2 tank include digital battlefield management system and navigation system for rapid coordination and increased situational awareness between friendly forces. It is also completed with an NBC protection system.
The Korean K2 is powered by the license-built MTU MB-883 Ka500 engine, developing 1 500 horsepower. There is also an auxiliary gas-turbine power unit, developing 400 horsepower. It powers onboard systems when the main engine is turned off. The K2 Black Panther has a state-of-the-art semi-active hydropneumatic suspension. Every boogie wheel can be individually controlled, allowing this MBT to "sit", "stand", "kneel" or to "lean" in any direction. This feature gives tank a number of advantages, furthermore it is claimed that such suspension system is easier to maintain, comparing with traditional one.
The Black Panther tank is fitted with a deep wading kit. It enables vehicle to cross rivers and other water obstacles up to 4.2 meters deep. Previous K1 and K1A1 MBTs lacked this feature.
The K2 tanks will also be offered for export customers. Turkey has successfully negotiated import or license production of the K2. The new Turkish Altay MBT will use some technologies of the K2 Black Panther MBT.

 

[madmusti]

If I am not, we can produce it (may or maynot with the critical parts) but its strictly prohibited to tranfer or sell it to a third party.

We just didn´t know anything about the agreement of the Engines from MTU, but we know that MTU is from Germany and Altay is using like the K2 or Arjun the same transmission from German Company Renk.

If you actually a little pay attention to German Politics those indirect licenses will have their end soon.

So the Altay Project is again related more to the Politics then anything else.

The Solution should be like any other Turkish Defence Product faced, to develop your own Engine and transmission, actually there are some rumors about some Turkish Companies that should make something like called "Engine" but it wont be really indigenous, even the Engines that they had made before are just indirect licenses from European companies.

Is it not funny that so many products are presented by Turkish Defence Industry, they all are mostly some kind of vehicles that needs a Engine, but no one of them has a Engine that is really turkish, so something is really going wrong there.

 

[Akasa]

"As just noted, the People’s Liberation Army still relies on the T-72 as its main battle tank. In addition, the Indian army operates the Soviet-built T-90, which is itself a derivative of the T-72."
Why China and India Want Russia's New Armata Battle Tank | The National Interest Blog

You should know by now China main battle tank is named change T72.

The Chinese never operated the T-72 or any variant of it.

As for the Chinese showing interest in the T-14 Armata, that is quite an improbable notion.

 

[Baybars Han]

The difference is that the Altay is a Turkish copy of some M1A1 and Leopard combined. While the Chinese T-99 is.......well.....the Chinese T-99



Pakistan's defense budget has crossed the $ 10 billion per year mark. They don't announce it to maintain a low key posture. By 2018-2020, their defense budget would be going north of $ 15 billion a year (as their economy improves). By 2022, it would be in the range of $ 18+ billion, surpassing Turkey!!

Lol copy of the m1a1? We don't even operate that tank to copy it, nor we got any technical support from an American company. You sure don't know what your talking about.

 

[Baybars Han]

We just didn´t know anything about the agreement of the Engines from MTU, but we know that MTU is from Germany and Altay is using like the K2 or Arjun the same transmission from German Company Renk.

If you actually a little pay attention to German Politics those indirect licenses will have their end soon.

So the Altay Project is again related more to the Politics then anything else.

The Solution should be like any other Turkish Defence Product faced, to develop your own Engine and transmission, actually there are some rumors about some Turkish Companies that should make something like called "Engine" but it wont be really indigenous, even the Engines that they had made before are just indirect licenses from European companies.

Is it not funny that so many products are presented by Turkish Defence Industry, they all are mostly some kind of vehicles that needs a Engine, but no one of them has a Engine that is really turkish, so something is really going wrong there.

Engine is being developed locally by I think it was tumosan or something. It should be ready in 2018 I believe. I think first batch will use German engine.

 

[Zarvan]

Let us clarify

Altay is not a copy. It came with ToT from K2 and license production of German engine.

Type 99...well I'd only laugh if you call Altay a copy in front of this tank considering that the Chinese is the master of copying stuff amd branding them as 'made in china'. Although I think they're doing a pretty good job with that though from their view.





So by 2022,,we keep it at 18 bn dollars?
Anyways, I'd have wanted to be kept this way and spend the future additional income to education. But yeah, we not supposed to be pacifist here are we.

TBH, I expect an economic leap from Pakistan once CPEC is operational and a solution basis in Afghanistan is set. Then the future defense spending may even be higher than you've proposed if we realistically think optimistic here.

So what if Turkey develops a similar K2 version for us with 55 Tonnes weight just like K2 has ? Pakistan is already in talks with South Korea for 1500 HP engine ? @Blue Marlin @Horus @Dazzler @DESERT FIGHTER

Upgrades are never ending story, every country has its own resources and requirements.


Lately, Russian did lots of modification in T72. Having a Syrian tank driver interview about t72, but its in Russian. I can post the interview , if someone can translate.

Now South Korean K2 Black panther is also in the market and looking for buyers. Seems Altay and K2 same class.

Crew 3 men
Dimensions and weight
Weight 55 t
Length 10 m
Hull length 7.5 m
Width 3.6 m
Height 2.5 m
Armament
Main gun 120-mm / L55 smoothbore
Machine guns 1 x 12.7-mm, 1 x 7.62-mm
Elevation range ?
Traverse range 360 degrees
Combat load
Main gun 40 rounds
Machine guns 3 200 x 12.7, 12 000 x 7.62
Mobility
Engine MTU MB-883 Ka500 diesel
Engine power 1 500 hp
Maximum road speed 70 km/h
Range 430 km
Maneuverability
Gradient 60%
Side slope ?
Vertical step 1.3 m
Trench ~ 2.8 m
Fording 1.2 m
Fording with preparation 4.2 m

The K2 Black Panther main battle tank evolved from the XK2 programme. This next-generation MBT was developed in South Korea using indigenous technology only. It's development began in 1995 and a full scale production is expected in 2010-2011. The K2 Black Panther will replace the K1 main battle tanks. Currently the K2 is one of the most advanced main battle tank in the world, outclassing anything North Korea or China have. Furthermore it is the most expensive main battle tank to date, overtaking the Japanese Type 90 MBT.
This tank uses both modular composite armor of undisclosed type and Explosive Reactive Armor (ERA) blocks. It is also completed with an active protection system and countermeasures system. Protection of the K2 is broadly similar to the M1A2 Abrams MBT considering that the K2 is significantly lighter.
The Black Panther is armed with a 120-mm Rheinmetall smoothbore gun, completed with an autoloader. This MBT has a maximum rate of fire in 15 rounds per minute. It is worth mentioning that autoloader's is similar to that, used on the French Leclerc main battle tank.
It also has a very advanced fire control system, allowing to track and engage not only the main battle tanks, but low-flying helicopters as well. Maximum effective range of fire is up to 10 kilometers. Furthermore it's fire control system can spot, track and fire automatically at visible vehicle-size targets without needing any input from a human operator.
The 120-mm gun can fire variety of munitions, notably the KSTAM (Korean Smart Top-Attack Munition) rounds. These are smart target activated fire and forget projectiles, but shouldn't be confused with anti-tank guided missiles. The KSTAM has it's own guidance system, aided by four stabilizing fins. At the final stage a parachute will deploy to slow it's fall and accurately engage target. Such principle is broadly similar to mortar-launched anti-tank munitions. Furthermore the K-2 tank can fire KSTAM munitions from behind the cover. The KSTAM has a maximum effective range in 8 kilometers.
Secondary armament consists of coaxial 7.62-mm machine gun and anti-aircraft 12.7-mm K6 heavy machine gun, mounted on top of the roof. Both of these machine guns have a very respectable ammunition load (12 000 x 7.62-mm and 3 200 x 12.7-mm). Furthermore the K6 heavy machine gun has an automatic system, that identifies friend from a foe.
This main battle tank has a crew of three, including commander, gunner and driver.
Other features of the K2 tank include digital battlefield management system and navigation system for rapid coordination and increased situational awareness between friendly forces. It is also completed with an NBC protection system.
The Korean K2 is powered by the license-built MTU MB-883 Ka500 engine, developing 1 500 horsepower. There is also an auxiliary gas-turbine power unit, developing 400 horsepower. It powers onboard systems when the main engine is turned off. The K2 Black Panther has a state-of-the-art semi-active hydropneumatic suspension. Every boogie wheel can be individually controlled, allowing this MBT to "sit", "stand", "kneel" or to "lean" in any direction. This feature gives tank a number of advantages, furthermore it is claimed that such suspension system is easier to maintain, comparing with traditional one.
The Black Panther tank is fitted with a deep wading kit. It enables vehicle to cross rivers and other water obstacles up to 4.2 meters deep. Previous K1 and K1A1 MBTs lacked this feature.
The K2 tanks will also be offered for export customers. Turkey has successfully negotiated import or license production of the K2. The new Turkish Altay MBT will use some technologies of the K2 Black Panther MBT.

Altay is Turkish version of K2 most things are same only engine and some other things are different. So I think if we are interested than we would develop a version just like K2 with weight 55 tonnes like K2 has.

 

[Blue Marlin]

So what if Turkey develops a similar K2 version for us with 55 Tonnes weight just like K2 has ? Pakistan is already in talks with South Korea for 1500 HP engine ? @Blue Marlin @Horus @Dazzler @DESERT FIGHTER


Altay is Turkish version of K2 most things are same only engine and some other things are different. So I think if we are interested than we would develop a version just like K2 with weight 55 tonnes like K2 has.

well it would make sense as south korea is looking at the pakistani market very closley. but you have to remember the altay is large varient of the k2 and the chances of a successfully exporting the altay to pakistan is greater than the k2.
the k2being 55 tonnes is probably the maximum pakistan will acept since it likes sub 50 tonne tanks.

to to be hnest they will not buy a new platform. they will develop the ak2 varient. they were interested in the daewoo and s&t 1500hp engine which will be avaliable in late 2016.

also uncle sam has a lot of strings in south korea so it may interviene, and what are the chances that it does not contain any americain parts?
heck it may be worth a shot going for the k2
i think a k2 vs altay thread is calling