Turkish Politics & Internal Affairs

[IR-TR]

I hate when I see non-Muslims are talking about Muslim countries's internal affairs. Mod should ban all of them from this section.

Are you talking about me? I'm not religious but I am officially a Muslim. I'm not Jewish or Christian or whatever. If not about me, then disregard this post.

The current smaller parties have been losing elections time after time since 2003, so the only thing they can do is to team up. However, this time the situation is direr than ever for them. They, chp, mhp, hdp and Gulenists, know that with a presidential system they will have less influence, hence they teamed up together.

imo, i would want the akp to win the majority so that Turkey can transform into a presidential system, like the US, France, south Korea (mentioned these just in case someone starts blabbering about akp turning Turkey into a 'dictatorship'). History has shown that the coalition periods in Turkey were pretty indecisive times, which is not a good thing for the development of a country imo.

True, Turkey has had quite a restive and indecisive political history, and that changed for better or worse under Erdogan (better and worse I think). But what then about checks and balances? What if Erdogan tries to sell to the Turkish people KRG independence, which will ineviably lead to parts of Turkey being lost in the future? Does money (cheap KRG oil and construction contracts) really outweigh this?
Aside from that, what about Aleviler? I think there should of course be a balance between hard-core secularism and religion for the hinterlands, but what if they feel they don't have any say anymore? It's a big part of the Turkish population, with many of them in big business and higher ups.

In short: should it be a good thing that a single party can rule for so long unopposed?

 

[usernameless]

True, Turkey has had quite a restive and indecisive political history, and that changed for better or worse under Erdogan (better and worse I think). But what then about checks and balances? What if Erdogan tries to sell to the Turkish people KRG independence, which will ineviably lead to parts of Turkey being lost in the future? Does money (cheap KRG oil and construction contracts) really outweigh this?
Aside from that, what about Aleviler? I think there should of course be a balance between hard-core secularism and religion for the hinterlands, but what if they feel they don't have any say anymore? It's a big part of the Turkish population, with many of them in big business and higher ups.

In short: should it be a good thing that a single party can rule for so long unopposed?

I agree, there are good and bad things under the akp, but i'm convinced that out of all the parties out there, the akp has actually done something for Turkey. Could have been even better (im especially talking about akp's foreign policies, though we shouldnt kid ourselves when many of our neighbors are skeptic/hostile towards Turkey anyway).

Imo, i dont think krg can do much without Turkey. If it thinks it can go independent, Turkey should team up with Iraqi govt instead and bring krg down. Krg is already dependent on Turkey, so im personally not worried about that. More importantly, krg has frictions with pkk/pyd/pjak. So if krg thinks it can influence south east of Turkey, i think the first answer will come from pkk. What is your opinion? Do you think krg can go independent?

About the Aleviler, their history since the establishment of the republic has been shaky. You might know about the Dersim massacre, and that happened under chp's period. as far as i know ironically Aleviler are still supporting chp. Anyway if the majority of the Aleviler say they are skeptic about the akp due Alevi-Sunni thingy, i can understand them, but akp has relatively done a lot for minorities and other religions in the last decade.

Imo, a better opposition plus presidential system is a better solution. It's time that chp, mhp and hdp start reforming if they want to broaden their target group. Chp can't rely on the leftists and hardcore secularists alone, mhp's ideology and hardcore nationalism doesnt suit our multicultural country and hdp can't expect to represent Turkey with only its fellow (pkk) Kurds in mind. A good balance is needed, the oneness is needed, and i will take off my hat for any party that can achieve this in Turkey (not saying that everything is perfect now, there might be issues, but people should solve it together sincerelyfor the well being of the country). Hardcore secularism, strict religious or nationalistic ruling will not go down well in Turkey. Therefore im of the opinion that the opposition needs to reform instead of blaming that a party can go unchecked.

 

[Bismarck]

I hate when I see non-Muslims are talking about Muslim countries's internal affairs. Mod should ban all of them from this section.

Stupid statemant!

 

[TurAr]

Turkey could never install the necessary check and balance mechanisms needed for a proper presidential system under its current Sultan wannabe president. Even in parliamentary system nobody, no institution, more importantly no law is able to control him as he shamelessly breaks through all the rules and laws which he promised he would keep on his honor and dignity.

This Alaturka presidential system would be nothing but an abomination and it would bring nothing but trouble and misery as we lack some fundementals like the seperation of powers. So giving countries like USA and South Korea as an example is laughable.

 

[bsruzm]

Stupid statemant!

Let it be, i hate it, too.

 

[IR-TR]

I agree, there are good and bad things under the akp, but i'm convinced that out of all the parties out there, the akp has actually done something for Turkey. Could have been even better (im especially talking about akp's foreign policies, though we shouldnt kid ourselves when many of our neighbors are skeptic/hostile towards Turkey anyway).

Imo, i dont think krg can do much without Turkey. If it thinks it can go independent, Turkey should team up with Iraqi govt instead and bring krg down. Krg is already dependent on Turkey, so im personally not worried about that. More importantly, krg has frictions with pkk/pyd/pjak. So if krg thinks it can influence south east of Turkey, i think the first answer will come from pkk. What is your opinion? Do you think krg can go independent?

About the Aleviler, their history since the establishment of the republic has been shaky. You might know about the Dersim massacre, and that happened under chp's period. as far as i know ironically Aleviler are still supporting chp. Anyway if the majority of the Aleviler say they are skeptic about the akp due Alevi-Sunni thingy, i can understand them, but akp has relatively done a lot for minorities and other religions in the last decade.

Imo, a better opposition plus presidential system is a better solution. It's time that chp, mhp and hdp start reforming if they want to broaden their target group. Chp can't rely on the leftists and hardcore secularists alone, mhp's ideology and hardcore nationalism doesnt suit our multicultural country and hdp can't expect to represent Turkey with only its fellow (pkk) Kurds in mind. A good balance is needed, the oneness is needed, and i will take off my hat for any party that can achieve this in Turkey (not saying that everything is perfect now, there might be issues, but people should solve it together sincerelyfor the well being of the country). Hardcore secularism, strict religious or nationalistic ruling will not go down well in Turkey. Therefore im of the opinion that the opposition needs to reform instead of blaming that a party can go unchecked.

Nice and very informative post.

About Erdogan, my concerns domestically are principally the following: too much corruption and NO appetite for dissent (not good for any democracy, and by God Turkey IS a democracy) and courting the Kurds too much. Economic policies, well, you know that pretty much any and every party has been corrupt to some extent in Turkey. And probably any and every party would have inflated the construction bubble. It's a good thing that at least Erdogan provides stability, and invests in some form of manufacturing, be it automobile plants or military products. Manufacturing is highly important. And he also pursues close trading ties with many countries. All of which are to be applauded.

About the Alevis, I believe the Dersim massacre was more about the Kurds (Zazalar) as opposed to being Alevi, though it might have had a part in it. As far as I know, Aleviler are DIE HARD Turks, and are Turks first and foremost, while perhaps Sunnis also believe in Ummah or being part of a greater muslim good. Sure they are also very pro-Turk, but Aleviler have no such possible wish. I just wish Erdogan would tone it down with the anti-Alevi remarks in election seasons (I have some Alevi ancestry as well). It is a known fact that Sunni islam is the mainstream, and also sadly sometimes, violet toward minorities. Even though this is very very unusual in Turkey, if you keep talking about Alevis badly as if they were a 'foreign' group or bad group, you might seem some violence towards them. Escpecially with sectarianism being the flavour du jour in the middle east right now.

The Kurds question is extremely complex, as we don't live in the 70's anymore, and Kurds ARE a force and population to be reckoned with. With our trade ties with Europe and our membership of NATO, we just can't do stuff and expect those countries to ignore it. There is no appetite in Turkey for another prolongued war that can't reasonably be won. Even though you can destroy militantism, or even flatten Erbil, you can't destroy their wish to become a nation. I believe there will be a Kurdistan, and sadly, I believe they will take a piece of Turkey and even Iran. Though it's very sad and I wish it wouldn't happen (yanlis milleti geberttik), there is a very big reason this might happen. The US and the Ziocunts want it to happen. Smaller nations in the middle east and less powerful. But if we were to be honest and objective, let's say not think as Turks but as Brazilians, the post Ottoman borders are incredibly ignorant and have the natural pressure to be changed. And even though our countries can surpress that natural (race and sectarian) pressure to change the borders, we can't do d1ck with the US actively helping them. Turkish trade with the EU is a lot more than half or Turkey's total foreign trade. If the EU pressures Turkey economically, there isn't much we can do. So I see that as a foregone conclusion sadly, especially now that 2 dominoes have already fallen: Iraq and Syria. In the end though, it needn't be bad. Especially if Israel and the US don't arm Kurdistan to 'keep us in check', there needn't be hostilities, and all of Kurdistan's neighbors could trade with it, even with open borders at a later stage.

Presidential sytem, I don't know much about it and haven't read up on it. .Though what you say is logical, the hardcore factions are too small (hardcore secularists, hardcore nationalists (I call them racists) and the hardcore religious people)) can't govern alone. So the AKP seems the only one for now. I just hope Turkey can cat past this infantile stage of democracy quickly, and into that more European style of democracy, people choosing candidates and parties based on economic principles and foreign policy instead of nationalism and religion. But that takes time. Democracy wasn't bought at the bakkal by Holland either. I just hope Erdogan becomes a bit more consistent in his foreign policy, and hope he isn't led by ideas of grandeur or an Ottoman revival. We all know that's bs. Arabs wouldn't ever accept that either. There will be a balance in the middle east, not a top dog 'watching over others'.

Let it be, i hate it, too.

Why don't you go and play 'Khilafah' with your buddies??

 

[usernameless]

Nice and very informative post.

About Erdogan, my concerns domestically are principally the following: too much corruption and NO appetite for dissent (not good for any democracy, and by God Turkey IS a democracy) and courting the Kurds too much. Economic policies, well, you know that pretty much any and every party has been corrupt to some extent in Turkey. And probably any and every party would have inflated the construction bubble. It's a good thing that at least Erdogan provides stability, and invests in some form of manufacturing, be it automobile plants or military products. Manufacturing is highly important. And he also pursues close trading ties with many countries. All of which are to be applauded.

About the Alevis, I believe the Dersim massacre was more about the Kurds (Zazalar) as opposed to being Alevi, though it might have had a part in it. As far as I know, Aleviler are DIE HARD Turks, and are Turks first and foremost, while perhaps Sunnis also believe in Ummah or being part of a greater muslim good. Sure they are also very pro-Turk, but Aleviler have no such possible wish. I just wish Erdogan would tone it down with the anti-Alevi remarks in election seasons (I have some Alevi ancestry as well). It is a known fact that Sunni islam is the mainstream, and also sadly sometimes, violet toward minorities. Even though this is very very unusual in Turkey, if you keep talking about Alevis badly as if they were a 'foreign' group or bad group, you might seem some violence towards them. Escpecially with sectarianism being the flavour du jour in the middle east right now.

The Kurds question is extremely complex, as we don't live in the 70's anymore, and Kurds ARE a force and population to be reckoned with. With our trade ties with Europe and our membership of NATO, we just can't do stuff and expect those countries to ignore it. There is no appetite in Turkey for another prolongued war that can't reasonably be won. Even though you can destroy militantism, or even flatten Erbil, you can't destroy their wish to become a nation. I believe there will be a Kurdistan, and sadly, I believe they will take a piece of Turkey and even Iran. Though it's very sad and I wish it wouldn't happen (yanlis milleti geberttik), there is a very big reason this might happen. The US and the Ziocunts want it to happen. Smaller nations in the middle east and less powerful. But if we were to be honest and objective, let's say not think as Turks but as Brazilians, the post Ottoman borders are incredibly ignorant and have the natural pressure to be changed. And even though our countries can surpress that natural (race and sectarian) pressure to change the borders, we can't do d1ck with the US actively helping them. Turkish trade with the EU is a lot more than half or Turkey's total foreign trade. If the EU pressures Turkey economically, there isn't much we can do. So I see that as a foregone conclusion sadly, especially now that 2 dominoes have already fallen: Iraq and Syria. In the end though, it needn't be bad. Especially if Israel and the US don't arm Kurdistan to 'keep us in check', there needn't be hostilities, and all of Kurdistan's neighbors could trade with it, even with open borders at a later stage.

Presidential sytem, I don't know much about it and haven't read up on it. .Though what you say is logical, the hardcore factions are too small (hardcore secularists, hardcore nationalists (I call them racists) and the hardcore religious people)) can't govern alone. So the AKP seems the only one for now. I just hope Turkey can cat past this infantile stage of democracy quickly, and into that more European style of democracy, people choosing candidates and parties based on economic principles and foreign policy instead of nationalism and religion. But that takes time. Democracy wasn't bought at the bakkal by Holland either. I just hope Erdogan becomes a bit more consistent in his foreign policy, and hope he isn't led by ideas of grandeur or an Ottoman revival. We all know that's bs. Arabs wouldn't ever accept that either. There will be a balance in the middle east, not a top dog 'watching over others'.



Why don't you go and play 'Khilafah' with your buddies??

Bro, our posts are going to become very lengthy, so i will try to keep it short.

About the corruption, imo without doubt there is corruption and preferential 'friendly business' practice with like-minded akp businessmen etc. I also dont look warm to such practices.
Tbh, btw depends on your definition of 'dissent', i also have no stomache for dissents. I'm talking about those types who are rioting, vandalizing and attacking police with molotovs and stones. Overall, i think Turkish police is quite soft when we compare it to certain European and American police.
Actually i think courting the Kurds this much was a necessary step (i'm not talking about the times when the govt turned a blind eye to pro-pkk events..). Winning the trust of the average Kurds is an important cornerstone on defeating the pkk imo. Also improving the living conditions and economy of the SE is important. Killing pkk members and bombing north Iraq once in a while is not going to cut it as a sustainable long term solution.

You're right, they were Alevi Kurds, if i recall correctly. Anyway what matters the most is not their identity, but the fact that they were our fellow citizens. I hope the govt and the Aleviler in general can come to terms, it would be really stupid to alienate a reasonable big group of people. Agreed that Aleviler are nationalistic people, i personally have some Alevi friends and if you ever get the chance you should visit Hacibektas in Nevsehir, nice place for interaction with Alevi place.

I think it's too early to think about doom scenarios, but i agree that once the opportunity rises, the US, EU and Israel (most probably Russia too) would help the pkk/pjak in Turkey and Iran. Imo Kurdistan will become nothing more than a tank station and launching platform for especially Israel and the US in the ME. With such a Kurdistan Israel can project power into Iran through Kurdistan. Even though i have lots of question marks about Iran in general, i think co-op with Iran against such a Kurdistan on Turkish and Iranian ground will become imperative.

I hope the foreign policy of akp will change. In short, my wish would be to have trade with the ME, but keep the political aspect aside. One day the ME is calm, the next day it explodes, everything changes at a rapid pace.

Nice conversing with you, gotta go now. Take care.

 

[Worf]

I hate when I see non-Muslims are talking about Muslim countries's internal affairs. Mod should ban all of them from this section.

Why? You can't just ban anyone that doesn't follow you idea....

 

[Turkish_FR]

Why? You can't just ban anyone that doesn't follow you idea....

It does not matter whether a non-Muslim is agree with my internal affairs or not. I said something quite clear. I dont want to see their big noses here.

 

[TurAr]

It does not matter whether a non-Muslim is agree with my internal affairs or not. I said something quite clear. I dont want to see their big noses here.

Then

 

[Turkish_FR]

Then

I dont even mention vatan hainlerini, we are gonna see soon who will get the hell out of this country, akıllı ol da kefen için de gitme, uçağa bin de git.

 

[IR-TR]

Bro, our posts are going to become very lengthy, so i will try to keep it short.

About the corruption, imo without doubt there is corruption and preferential 'friendly business' practice with like-minded akp businessmen etc. I also dont look warm to such practices.
Tbh, btw depends on your definition of 'dissent', i also have no stomache for dissents. I'm talking about those types who are rioting, vandalizing and attacking police with molotovs and stones. Overall, i think Turkish police is quite soft when we compare it to certain European and American police.
Actually i think courting the Kurds this much was a necessary step (i'm not talking about the times when the govt turned a blind eye to pro-pkk events..). Winning the trust of the average Kurds is an important cornerstone on defeating the pkk imo. Also improving the living conditions and economy of the SE is important. Killing pkk members and bombing north Iraq once in a while is not going to cut it as a sustainable long term solution.

You're right, they were Alevi Kurds, if i recall correctly. Anyway what matters the most is not their identity, but the fact that they were our fellow citizens. I hope the govt and the Aleviler in general can come to terms, it would be really stupid to alienate a reasonable big group of people. Agreed that Aleviler are nationalistic people, i personally have some Alevi friends and if you ever get the chance you should visit Hacibektas in Nevsehir, nice place for interaction with Alevi place.

I think it's too early to think about doom scenarios, but i agree that once the opportunity rises, the US, EU and Israel (most probably Russia too) would help the pkk/pjak in Turkey and Iran. Imo Kurdistan will become nothing more than a tank station and launching platform for especially Israel and the US in the ME. With such a Kurdistan Israel can project power into Iran through Kurdistan. Even though i have lots of question marks about Iran in general, i think co-op with Iran against such a Kurdistan on Turkish and Iranian ground will become imperative.

I hope the foreign policy of akp will change. In short, my wish would be to have trade with the ME, but keep the political aspect aside. One day the ME is calm, the next day it explodes, everything changes at a rapid pace.

Nice conversing with you, gotta go now. Take care.

You're right, it's getting long. Thanks for the replies anyway, very informative. I'll be sure to frequent these threads a bit more often. I'm going to Turkey a couple of weeks after the election, I might learn something here so that I have some meaningful things to add on those conversation tables with my family. Because those long nights on the patio become afwul boring if politics is taken out of the picture

It does not matter whether a non-Muslim is agree with my internal affairs or not. I said something quite clear. I dont want to see their big noses here.

Why non muslim? Not living in Turkey doesn't mean you're no muslim. And even if, who said that Turkey is only a place for very religious people?? The FOUNDER of the nation wasn't, by many accounts, a highly religious person. So where do you get your balls? Go play 'ISID' in Saudi Arabia.

 

[TurAr]

I dont even mention vatan hainlerini, we are gonna see soon who will get the hell out of this country, akıllı ol da kefen için de gitme, uçağa bin de git.

Bilmiyorum ağzından çıkanı kulağın duyuyor mu... Burada söylediklerinin binde birini sokakta söylesen uçağa değil direkt sana binerler, 3. sayfalardan okuruz. Ama işte insan zekasız bir fedai olunca böyle saçmalaması normal sanırım.

 

[xenon54 out]

I dont even mention vatan hainlerini, we are gonna see soon who will get the hell out of this country, akıllı ol da kefen için de gitme, uçağa bin de git.

Vatan haini diyen sirf kendisiyle ayni fikirde olmadiklari icin ülkenin yarisini öldürmek istemese bari, gün gelir size bu laflariniz yediren biri cikar.
Sizin demokrasi anlayisinizi sevsinler.

 

[bsruzm]

Why don't you go and play 'Khilafah' with your buddies??

This thread is named Turkish politics and internal affairs and Caliphate once of course was a part of Turkish politics:
''On 3 March 1924, the caliphate was officially abolished and its powers within Turkey were transferred to the GNA. (Grand National Assembly)''

So it is perhaps you who should go and play some flying ducthman.
For the misuderstood, I personally hate it but it doesn't mean I can not tolerate it.