Turkish Naval Programs

[Kutsanan]

OK ! Have a look at similar role corvette/frigate projects

USA USS Freedom
Russia Project 20380
China F-22P

Those states have also spent money on corvettes having similar armament planning with Milgem. Really What can they do with them ?

Look there navy sizes and compare later. They hava huge fleets and we dont.

 

[ANMDT]

Look there navy sizes and compare later. They hava huge fleets and we dont.

Comparing similar size navy fleets with similar doctrines, show me one navy who uses corvette as launching platform for land attack missiles, the example you have given is Russia and they have plenty of money and knowledge to lay on prototypes plus advantage of caspian sea, to keep such small corvettes safe from threats.
Once we installed vls with and attack missiles in, where would we use it ? If we meant to use long range cruise missiles, land based ones would cover the area that we may desire to hit.
Beside that, short and medium range missiles could be installed on milgem along with harpoon with similar launchers,and it could be used for bombardment when needed, but this doesnt match with main purpose of Ada class , Anti submarine warfare , patrol vessel.

 

[Kutsanan]

Comparing similar size navy fleets with similar doctrines, show me one navy who uses corvette as launching platform for land attack missiles, the example you have given is Russia and they have plenty of money and knowledge to lay on prototypes plus advantage of caspian sea, to keep such small corvettes safe from threats.
Once we installed vls with and attack missiles in, where would we use it ? If we meant to use long range cruise missiles, land based ones would cover the area that we may desire to hit.
Beside that, short and medium range missiles could be installed on milgem along with harpoon with similar launchers,and it could be used for bombardment when needed, but this doesnt match with main purpose of Ada class , Anti submarine warfare , patrol vessel.

You cant know when you need. Just make a point for VLS. Not only attack ground also need for AA missles. Milgems sitting ducks for planes.

 

[ANMDT]

You cant know when you need. Just make a point for VLS. Not only attack ground also need for AA missles. Milgems sitting ducks for planes.

There is RAM, which is also usable for Airborne targets. Beside that milgem havent meant to be AA platform, its ASW, ASuW . TF2000 is what meant to be AAW. İ class comes with limited capability of AAW.

You cant know when you need. Just make a point for VLS. Not only attack ground also need for AA missles. Milgems sitting ducks for planes.

Based on your idea, we should stock aircraft carriers, destroyers and frigates. Sorry dude, naval vessels arent like rifles you got to store, there is a strict plan made years ago and its applied with changing needs.
All DzKK, SSM, Naval Shipyards werent clever as you , sorry for that.

 

[Kutsanan]

There is RAM, which is also usable for Airborne targets. Beside that milgem havent meant to be AA platform, its ASW, ASuW . TF2000 is what meant to be AAW. İ class comes with limited capability of AAW.


Based on your idea, we should stock aircraft carriers, destroyers and frigates. Sorry dude, naval vessels arent like rifles you got to store, there is a strict plan made years ago and its applied with changing needs.
All DzKK, SSM, Naval Shipyards werent clever as you , sorry for that.

Dont bend my words. We are not powerful as russia or england because of that we have to use our platforms better. What you think when we clash with russian navy? Yeah thats a realistic possibility. Also israel and egypt.

 

[Oguzhan]

Since we all doesn't have huge fleets,most of our devices are multi-role.But this Ada class is a bit less multirole.İt is multi role but mostly for anti-sub warfare and etc.It also depends on what your enemy has.If your enemy has tanks,you should have tons of anti-tank,don't you? Speculations are normal,everyone wants all systems on one ship but it is a bit problemetic in terms of small fleets.

 

[UkroTurk]

Look to the Russia, USa, France, Germany, Italy all navies in the world. Even Israel have the capability. And what we are doin? Spending lots of money to ships that cant hit air and ground targets.

really what can we do with Milgem? Only naval war not more.

Showing sovereignty over your own seas.
Wawing own flag.
There is no active threat about active naval war.
The significant achievement is waving the flag.
.

 

[orko_8]

MilGem is a corvette, a littoral ship that is designed to conduct patrol and ASW in areas that are under air defence umbrella of navy & air force. Such ships do not require land attack capability or complex AD systems. Maybe it can be argued that the ship lacks a second CIWS / PDMS (RAM) but anything beyond that would be against the design philoshopy. There are dozens of corvette / littoral patrol vessel designs in the world with similar sensor & weapon layouts.

 

[Bismarck]

MilGem is a corvette, a littoral ship that is designed to conduct patrol and ASW in areas that are under air defence umbrella of navy & air force. Such ships do not require land attack capability or complex AD systems. Maybe it can be argued that the ship lacks a second CIWS / PDMS (RAM) but anything beyond that would be against the design philoshopy. There are dozens of corvette / littoral patrol vessel designs in the world with similar sensor & weapon layouts.

Expect islands I guess.

 

[SvenSvensonov]

Spending lots of money to ships that cant hit air and ground targets.

The ADA class is fine for what it was designed to do - ASW.

With tri-barrel torpedo launchers and a Ship Self Defense System for torpedo countermeasures - this being Sea Sentor.

Hanger facilities for S-70 ASW helicopters.

And a powerful, but well optimized for littoral waters, sonar.

These ships, the ADA class, excel at what they were designed to do - hunt submarines. They don't excel at land-attack or air-defense because that's not their intended role.

They aren't major surface combatants, they aren't multi-role destroyers or cruisers, and thus they only need to be able to do their designed role and do it well. The RAM? Perfectly fine for a ship like the ADA.

In fact, we see this setup repeated in other navies such as the USN with their (albeit maligned) Freedom and Independence class LCS.

There's no VLS on this ship, no VLS on any Freedom class corvette. Just the RAM for air-defense, a gun for self-defense against surface vessels, AShMs, and a SH-60 for ASW and ASuW. They are similar in their role to ADA.

And unlike the LCS, which even as a frigate wont have a credible air-defense capability. Future MILGEM project classes will as the corvette design of the ADA is enlarged to become a frigate and then a destroyer.

Across the world, we see that corvettes are largely the same. ASW or littoral patrol ships with secondary AShM or land-attack and very limited air-defense roles.

Visby of Sweden doesn't even have an air-defense weapon!!! Not even RAM! But it's a stellar ASW ship.

Same with India's Kamorta Class corvettes, though unlike Visby and like ADA, they have a close-in weapon system - the AK-630.

Looking around the world at corvette designs, ADA is typical for that class of ship.

For what they were designed to be, ASW corvettes with a secondary AShM capability, the ADA gives good quality for their size and cost.

Beside that milgem havent meant to be AA platform, its ASW, ASuW .

This.

Within the scope of their intended role, ASW and a secondary ASuW, they are credible, and in the scheme of the world's corvette designs, largely typical for that class.

It shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone that they aren't outfitted with land-attack missiles or anything beyond point-defense air-defense weapons. These aren't the ships intended roles.

...

For a navy the size of the USN, I don't like corvette-type ships like the LCS. They don't fit into the operational doctrine too well. Full-size frigates would be better.

But for the Turkish navy which is more limited in size and more limited geographically with a minimal expeditionary role and a major focus on regional defense, corvettes make sense as their more cost effective - at the expense of capability as swing or multi-role platforms.

There's nothing wrong with the ships. Not have a land-attack capability or VLS is normal for corvettes. Once you start to think about adding those, you're getting into frigate territory.

 

[-SINAN-]

But for the Turkish navy which is more limited in size and more limited geographically with a minimal expeditionary role and a major focus on regional defense, corvettes make sense as their more cost effective - at the expense of capability as swing or multi-role platforms.

First thank you for detailed explanation, much much appreciated.

Secondly, what do you think about our future LHD's role in the Turkish navy ? Do you it's necessary or unnecessary, it's capabilities, etc....

 

[Oguzhan]

+
LHD needs air protection and we still haven't selected an air defence system for tf-2000. Radar will be Çafrad for both naval use and ground but the rocket is the key.
For the news,we have talks about patriot agan,which one i don't know, and do you have any projectile about this ?

 

[ANMDT]

+
LHD needs air protection and we still haven't selected an air defence system for tf-2000. Radar will be Çafrad for both naval use and ground but the rocket is the key.
For the news,we have talks about patriot agan,which one i don't know, and do you have any projectile about this ?

LHD will be in exercises,training and flag showing around until 2025 , eventhough DzKK doesnt intend to fully operational LHD until that time.
Beyong this, landing some jets on TCG Anadolu may be later than 2025 as well (in operational manners, not to show off once in a while).

The ADA class is fine for what it was designed to do - ASW.

With tri-barrel torpedo launchers and a Ship Self Defense System for torpedo countermeasures - this being Sea Sentor.

Hanger facilities for S-70 ASW helicopters.

And a powerful, but well optimized for littoral waters, sonar.

These ships, the ADA class, excel at what they were designed to do - hunt submarines. They don't excel at land-attack or air-defense because that's not their intended role.

They aren't major surface combatants, they aren't multi-role destroyers or cruisers, and thus they only need to be able to do their designed role and do it well. The RAM? Perfectly fine for a ship like the ADA.

In fact, we see this setup repeated in other navies such as the USN with their (albeit maligned) Freedom and Independence class LCS.

There's no VLS on this ship, no VLS on any Freedom class corvette. Just the RAM for air-defense, a gun for self-defense against surface vessels, AShMs, and a SH-60 for ASW and ASuW. They are similar in their role to ADA.

And unlike the LCS, which even as a frigate wont have a credible air-defense capability. Future MILGEM project classes will as the corvette design of the ADA is enlarged to become a frigate and then a destroyer.

Across the world, we see that corvettes are largely the same. ASW or littoral patrol ships with secondary AShM or land-attack and very limited air-defense roles.

Visby of Sweden doesn't even have an air-defense weapon!!! Not even RAM! But it's a stellar ASW ship.

Same with India's Kamorta Class corvettes, though unlike Visby and like ADA, they have a close-in weapon system - the AK-630.

Looking around the world at corvette designs, ADA is typical for that class of ship.

For what they were designed to be, ASW corvettes with a secondary AShM capability, the ADA gives good quality for their size and cost.



This.

Within the scope of their intended role, ASW and a secondary ASuW, they are credible, and in the scheme of the world's corvette designs, largely typical for that class.

It shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone that they aren't outfitted with land-attack missiles or anything beyond point-defense air-defense weapons. These aren't the ships intended roles.

...

For a navy the size of the USN, I don't like corvette-type ships like the LCS. They don't fit into the operational doctrine too well. Full-size frigates would be better.

But for the Turkish navy which is more limited in size and more limited geographically with a minimal expeditionary role and a major focus on regional defense, corvettes make sense as their more cost effective - at the expense of capability as swing or multi-role platforms.

There's nothing wrong with the ships. Not have a land-attack capability or VLS is normal for corvettes. Once you start to think about adding those, you're getting into frigate territory.

Thanks for such good explanation, appreciated it. And that was needed to convince some friends about this issue, sometimes words just not enough for them.

 

[Kutsanan]

The ADA class is fine for what it was designed to do - ASW.

With tri-barrel torpedo launchers and a Ship Self Defense System for torpedo countermeasures - this being Sea Sentor.

Hanger facilities for S-70 ASW helicopters.

And a powerful, but well optimized for littoral waters, sonar.

These ships, the ADA class, excel at what they were designed to do - hunt submarines. They don't excel at land-attack or air-defense because that's not their intended role.

They aren't major surface combatants, they aren't multi-role destroyers or cruisers, and thus they only need to be able to do their designed role and do it well. The RAM? Perfectly fine for a ship like the ADA.

In fact, we see this setup repeated in other navies such as the USN with their (albeit maligned) Freedom and Independence class LCS.

There's no VLS on this ship, no VLS on any Freedom class corvette. Just the RAM for air-defense, a gun for self-defense against surface vessels, AShMs, and a SH-60 for ASW and ASuW. They are similar in their role to ADA.

And unlike the LCS, which even as a frigate wont have a credible air-defense capability. Future MILGEM project classes will as the corvette design of the ADA is enlarged to become a frigate and then a destroyer.

Across the world, we see that corvettes are largely the same. ASW or littoral patrol ships with secondary AShM or land-attack and very limited air-defense roles.

Visby of Sweden doesn't even have an air-defense weapon!!! Not even RAM! But it's a stellar ASW ship.

Same with India's Kamorta Class corvettes, though unlike Visby and like ADA, they have a close-in weapon system - the AK-630.

Looking around the world at corvette designs, ADA is typical for that class of ship.

For what they were designed to be, ASW corvettes with a secondary AShM capability, the ADA gives good quality for their size and cost.



This.

Within the scope of their intended role, ASW and a secondary ASuW, they are credible, and in the scheme of the world's corvette designs, largely typical for that class.

It shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone that they aren't outfitted with land-attack missiles or anything beyond point-defense air-defense weapons. These aren't the ships intended roles.

...

For a navy the size of the USN, I don't like corvette-type ships like the LCS. They don't fit into the operational doctrine too well. Full-size frigates would be better.

But for the Turkish navy which is more limited in size and more limited geographically with a minimal expeditionary role and a major focus on regional defense, corvettes make sense as their more cost effective - at the expense of capability as swing or multi-role platforms.

There's nothing wrong with the ships. Not have a land-attack capability or VLS is normal for corvettes. Once you start to think about adding those, you're getting into frigate territory.

We are not USa or Indiai we have to use our little force to do lot of job dont you get it?

 

[KingWest]

http://www.defensenews.com/story/defense-news/2016/06/14/turkish-shipbuilding-boost/85860442/

ANKARA — The Turkish government has said that it intends to buy scores of naval assets in the next years, potentially giving a major boost to the country’s flourishing shipyards and their foreign partners.

Under a program dubbed MILGEM (a Turkish acronym for “the national ship”) Turkish shipyards have built two corvettes. The third ship will be launched soon, according to procurement officials. The fourth will be delivered in 2020, with additional orders expected.

Turkey’s top procurement official, Ismail Demir, said that the government will order four more “new generation” corvettes. “These [corvettes] will be more advanced, bigger vessels,” said Demir, head of the procurement agency, the Undersecretariat for Defense Industries (SSM).

The corvettes are the smallest warships in the Turkish Navy’s inventory. Turkey plans to use the experience gained in the MILGEM project to design, develop and construct its first indigenous frigate, the TF-2000, in the 2020s.

Demir said Turkey has a “very active” private shipbuilding industry. Naval platforms “are one of the primary items we market abroad,” he said.

Early in June, a privately-owned Turkish shipyard, Dearsan, signed a memorandum of understanding with the Kazakh government for technical cooperation for the construction of a batch of six corvettes with vertical-takeoff-and-landing capability for drones. Kazakhstan plans to use the corvettes in the Caspian Sea.

Demir said that the construction of six “new type” submarines, under German license, has started with initial deliveries scheduled for 2020. “These [submarines] will be built entirely in Turkey although they are German design,” he said.

SSM’s chief said that the next generation of submarines would be designed, developed and constructed locally.

A procurement official said that the next order for the new-generation submarines would be “an initial batch of six.”

“Naval platforms of different types are in popular [governmental] demand because they earn the country capabilities that are in line with Turkey’s regional foreign policy ambitions, most notably in the Mediterranean,” said one senior Turkish diplomat.

One such program is the Landing Platform Dock (LPD), which Sedef, a Turkish shipyard, in partnership with Spain’s Navantia, is building under an approximately $1.5 billion deal. In a high-profile ceremony on Apr. 30, the construction of the TCG Anadolu, an amphibious assault ship, took off.

The planned amphibious assault vessel will carry a battalion-sized unit of 1,200 troops and personnel, eight utility helicopters and three unmanned aerial vehicles. It can transport 150 vehicles, including battle tanks.

The ship also may get an aircraft platform for vertical takeoff and landing, and a ski jump at the front of the deck can be used to launch fighter planes.

One feature of Turkey’s naval ambitions is focused on the littoral zones. Turkey is bordered by sea on three sides: the Black Sea in the north, the Mediterranean in the south and the Aegean in the west. In the northwest, there is also an important internal sea, the Sea of Marmara, between the straits of the Dardanelles and the Bosporus, important waterways that connect the Black Sea with the rest of the world. The Turkish coastline is 4,474 miles, excluding islands.

That makes the Coast Guard, in addition to the Navy, another key end user. On June 9, SSM released a request for information for the acquisition of an unspecified batch of 600-class Coast Guard ships.

The document said that the planned vessels would be between 60 meters and 75 meters. They should have a landing platform to allow VTOL for helicopters of up to 10 tons.

One SSM official familiar with the program said that Turkey plans to buy eight Coast Guard ships.