Turkish Naval Programs

[Adıvar]

http://tyrannosurusrex.wordpress.com/2016/03/01/i-sinifi-firkateyn/
Cost of an I-class = $325mln

Actually, taking its 65% indigenous contribution into account,

325X0,35 = 113,75 Millions USD is the real cost of us.

I see it this way.

 

[ziaulislam]

Let's hope Pakistan opts for the I-Class and not Ada-class. @Tank131

Absolutely, it would be a waste of money to go for ada. Its makes little sense for a coumtry with Pakistans finances to have a $200M+ ships as peacetime sub hunters. The need desperately to add aerial defense.

some how i think it would be Ada, for some reason top brass of PN is thinking still old school
looking at the last 10 year procurement indicates that, inducting 600 tones aircraft without even rudimentary air defense that exist in almost every ship of samiliar tonnage elsewhere, no focus on antiair defense etc

 

[cabatli_53]

If Pakistan and Turkey reach a deal for Istanbul class, I think We can predict a likely TF-2000 AAW deal between two brother state is closer and more feasible. Both country follow similar principles and tactics for Navy and It is possible that both may want to benefit the incomes of similar vessels modified in accordance with own requirements.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

some how i think it would be Ada, for some reason top brass of PN is thinking still old school
looking at the last 10 year procurement indicates that, inducting 600 tones aircraft without even rudimentary air defense that exist in almost every ship of samiliar tonnage elsewhere, no focus on antiair defense etc

The Azmat FAC deal was inked in 2010 to actually fulfill the role originally intended for the MILGEM corvette, i.e. patrol and littoral defence. Basically, that 'corvette' real has already been taken by the Azmat, which some PN officials even refer to as a 'corvette.'

With the Ada, they'll just be adding ASW and more range. OTOH they also have a requirement for four frigates, which many believe will go to China. There's a major problem here: Why go for two ship types?

It would have made sense if there was I-Class frigate (i.e. Ada + 10-15 m length hull), but the I-Class basically negates the need for two ship platforms. They will save by just going for 4 I-Class frigates (instead of 4 Ada + 4 improved F-22P or whatever). If they need peacetime patrol boats, they can ask STM to design a cheap OPV (or pick up a variant of the 1,500-ton boat bought by the PMSA). No need for Ada.

If Pakistan and Turkey reach a deal for Istanbul class, I think We can predict a likely TF-2000 AAW deal between two brother state is closer and more feasible. Both country follow similar principles and tactics for Navy and It is possible that both may want to benefit the incomes of similar vessels modified in accordance with own requirements.

I would be happy enough for 4 Istanbul-class frigates with an option for 2 more!

 

[T-123456]

Actually, taking its 65% indigenous contribution into account,

325X0,35 = 113,75 Millions USD is the real cost of us.

I see it this way.

If so,you should only count the indigenous part.
65% of 325=211,25(rest 113,75)
211,25x0,35=73,9375(indigenous costs)
73,9375+113,75=187,6875
By your calculation,the cost per ship would be $187,6875.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

If so,you should only count the indigenous part.
65% of 325=211,25(rest 113,75)
211,25x0,35=73,9375(indigenous costs)
73,9375+113,75=187,6875
By your calculation,the cost per ship would be $187,6875 million per ship.

Is this the cost of the ship with electronics (e.g. sensors) and weapons? Or just the hull and propulsion?

 

[T-123456]

Is this the cost of the ship with electronics (e.g. sensors) and weapons? Or just the hull and propulsion?

By his calculation,all in.
The real cost per ship for Turkish production standards is $325 million as stated.

I would be happy enough for 4 Istanbul-class frigates with an option for 2 more!

Why not 2 I class and 2 TF2000?

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

By his calculation,all in.
The real cost per ship for Turkish production standards is $325 million as stated.


Why not 2 I class and 2 TF2000?

Currently, the I-Class is much more affordable for Pakistan, so it could help build frigate numbers (if the PN intends to build the frigate fleet to the 6-8 figure it had planned with the OHPs). The TF-2000 would be something very distant (if possible).

 

[Adıvar]

If so,you should only count the indigenous part.
65% of 325=211,25(rest 113,75)
211,25x0,35=73,9375(indigenous costs)
73,9375+113,75=187,6875
By your calculation,the cost per ship would be $187,6875.

Good point.

But we only have the minister's speech, "Işık stated that the project has reached an “indigenous contribution” of over 65 percent."
and the total cost , 325M USD.
We dont know how much the indigenous parts cost out of total. So , i assumed cost and material are in direct proportion.

To be more clear, i consider the parts manufactured by/bought from national firms as free.

 

[T-123456]

Good point.

But we only have the minister's speech, "Işık stated that the project has reached an “indigenous contribution” of over 65 percent."
and the total cost , 325M USD.
We dont know how much the indigenous parts cost out of total. So , i assumed cost and material are in direct proportion.

Yes you would be right but the costs are for Turkish standards,they already calculated the indigenous production part.
The same ship would cost more if built in lets say in France/Germany or the UK.

 

[Tank131]

As with the airforce, PN needs to think out of the box. They have a distinct need to improve on multiple fronts and streamlime costs. They need to be cost effective without sacrificing capability.

To that end, they should still pursue OHP in the form of Adelaides. Alamghir was acquired by hot transfers so the cost was low. They took it as is. They later added surface attack capabilities. They should do the same with the Adelaides of Australia and get the remaining 3 as is via hot transfer as they retire. (the remaining 3 will likely be retired by 2020/2021 (as Hobart come online). These have 8 cell mk41s. Put them through Genesis upgrade and install smart s mk2 on all 4 ships and get an 8 cell vls system from S. KOREA for Alamghir and equip all 4 ships with 32 K-SAAM, or Sylver A43/A50 and CAMM for all 4 ships. As the Adelaides have their Mk13 arms still, they could load up to 40 Harpoons each and can fire at a rate or 1 every 8 seconds (since pakistan wont have SM-1, Load the launcher out with Harpoons). Equipped with 2 helicopters, towed sonar and 6 torpedo tubes it will be an excellent all around ship class for another 20 years.

Go for 4 Istanbul class frigate with its 16 cell VLS go for same MR-SAM (CAMM or K-SAAM) for 64 SAMs. With 16 AShM capabilities, this could probably be adjusted to equip it with Babur (10 AshM and 4 Babur for example) when necessary.

That gives 8 modern multirole FFGs with decent Anti-air capabilities, with 4 F-22p and 4 Azmat (and supposedly 6 more FACs of Chinese or Turkish design) backimg them. That is a reasonable surface fleet.

Additionally they could add 4 Y-8GX6 To the ASW Aircraft fleet (supplementing P-3Cs and the ATRs being upgraded by Germany). These can carry up to 8 (supposedly) Torpedoes each and likely to be able to fire C802A AShMs. This would add tremendously to Antishipping and Antisubmarine capabilities of the entire fleet. So for 4 new 3 used ships amd 4 ASW aircraft, you would transform the fleet. If we remember that the Mcinnery cost Pakistan $65M we can assume that the Adelaides will be in that ball park (total $195, lets round it to $200M) and the Istanbuls are supposedly costing $325M/ship and the rough price of Y-8GX6 would be around $60M/plane you are looking at $1.75B,add another $100M for upgrades, and refurbishing the the Adelaides/Alamghir and you have a potent navy for under $2 billion. Of course thats without weapons.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

As with the airforce, PN needs to think out of the box. They have a distinct need to improve on multiple fronts and streamlime costs. They need to be cost effective without sacrificing capability.

To that end, they should still pursue OHP in the form of Adelaides. Alamghir was acquired by hot transfers so the cost was low. They took it as is. They later added surface attack capabilities. They should do the same with the Adelaides of Australia and get the remaining 3 as is via hot transfer as they retire. (the remaining 3 will likely be retired by 2020/2021 (as Hobart come online). These have 8 cell mk41s. Put them through Genesis upgrade and install smart s mk2 on all 4 ships and get an 8 cell vls system from S. KOREA for Alamghir and equip all 4 ships with 32 K-SAAM, or Sylver A43/A50 and CAMM for all 4 ships. As the Adelaides have their Mk13 arms still, they could load up to 40 Harpoons each and can fire at a rate or 1 every 8 seconds (since pakistan wont have SM-1, Load the launcher out with Harpoons). Equipped with 2 helicopters, towed sonar and 6 torpedo tubes it will be an excellent all around ship class for another 20 years.

Go for 4 Istanbul class frigate with its 16 cell VLS go for same MR-SAM (CAMM or K-SAAM) for 64 SAMs. With 16 AShM capabilities, this could probably be adjusted to equip it with Babur (10 AshM and 4 Babur for example) when necessary.

That gives 8 modern multirole FFGs with decent Anti-air capabilities, with 4 F-22p and 4 Azmat (and supposedly 6 more FACs of Chimese or Turkish design) backimg them. That is a reasonable surface fleet.

Additionally they could add 4 Y-8GX6 To the ASW Aircraft fleet (supplementing P-3Cs and the ATRs being upgraded by Germany). These can carry up to 8 (supposedly) Torpedoes each and likely to be able to fire C802A AShMs. Could even fire Would add tremendously to Antishipping and Antisubmarine capabilities of the entire fleet. So for 4 new 3 used ships amd 4 ASW aircraft, you would tramsform the fleet. If we remember that the Mcinnery cost Pakistan $65M we can assume that the Adelaides will be in that ball park (total $195, lets round it to $200M) and the Istanbuls are supposedly costing $325M/ship and the rough price of Y-8GX6 would be aroumd $60M/plane you are loockimg at $1.75B,add another $100M for upgrades, and refurbishing the the Adelaides/Alamghir and you have a potent navy for under $2 billion. Of course thats without weapons.

Honestly, I think the PN should double-down on the ATR-72. The Turkish MELTEM-III is a great example of how one can attain a robust and affordable ASW, AShW and ISR platform. Yes, the MELTEM-III does utilize a slightly different variant of the ATR-72 compared to the Pakistan Navy's (-600 vs. -500), but it'd be much cheaper to procure -600s and configure them for the role than a new platform.

 

[Tank131]

Honestly, I think the PN should double-down on the ATR-72. The Turkish MELTEM-III is a great example of how one can attain a robust and affordable ASW, AShW and ISR platform. Yes, the MELTEM-III does utilize a slightly different variant of the ATR-72 compared to the Pakistan Navy's (-600 vs. -500), but it'd be much cheaper to procure -600s and configure them for the role than a new platform.

The ATR is a smaller less robust system when compared to the Y-8GX6. The Y-8 has the largest MAD of any Asw which for one has a direct correlation to its sensory capabilities. Beyond this it has a large surface search radar amd carries 2x the payload with greater range. This means it stays in the fight longer and can deliver more ordinance. It also can take the role of AWACs for naval purposes as far as ship hunting. And has the ability to deliver multiple AShM or Torpedoes against a target (ship or sub). Granted PN will operate ATR, but the Y-8GX6 is likely the superior platform.

 

[aziqbal]

The first Ada class was laid down 12 years ago and still the 4th is still to be launched

Let's hope this programme isn't as slow

Turkey has a robust programme but very slow

 

[cabatli_53]

The first Ada class was laid down 12 years ago and still the 4th is still to be launched

Let's hope this programme isn't as slow

Turkey has a robust programme but very slow

Bro, Construction plan: Turkish Military shipyard produce the first warships of its classes, then transfer the know-how to a private one to build them serially in a short time. It was planned perfect but wasn't applied for Milgem corvette cause of some politic reasons but I class frigate and Tf-2000 will follow this roadway enabling to accelerate the construction roadway for domestic requirements.

Timeline will be as following...

2017 I class frigate construction commencement
2018 - Completion of 4th Milgem corvette called TCG Kinaliada.
2018 - Preparation to construct first TF-2000 destroyer - first welding (?)- in same slipway that Kinaliada constructed.

Note*
Turkish Fast Assault Boat
I class frigate
TF-2000 destroyer
TCG Anadolu mini aircraft carrier will be under construction simultaneously by 2018-2019.

-Milden indigenous submarine design phase is also expected to be finalized within 1-2 years as well.