Turkish Meko Class enters Greek Waters.

[Jigs]

i expect the turkish navy to do nothing else, but i expect from you to be more than a simpleton .. too much to ask huh ?

oh and by the way, the waters are not up for taking, they are Greece's by international law and established treaties.. it is not the middle ages anymore, where if you could take something you would and keep it.. ottoman aspirations over there , have we ?

I have been looking into many of our overflights and noticed your media publishes airspace violations when we do not submit FIRs. Your media does know military aircraft are not required to submit any FIRs right ? so us flying in the Aegean does not give you the right to say we are trespassing. You don't own the waters.

One of the routine interception maneuvers led to a fatal accident on May 23, 2006. Two Turkish F-16s and one reconnaissance F-4 were flying in the international airspace over the southern Aegean at 27,000 feet (8,200 m) without having submitted flight plans to the Greek FIR authorities. They were intercepted by two Greek F-16s off the coast of the Greek island Karpathos. During the ensuing mock dog fight, a Turkish F-16 and a Greek F-16 crashed midair. The pilot of the Turkish plane survived the crash, but the Greek pilot died.

This for example is not acceptable. I also noticed many inhabited islands being claimed as violations and also helping extend coastal ranges. This is pointless and will only escalate things.

 

[amalakas]

I have been looking into many of our overflights and noticed your media publishes airspace violations when we do not submit FIRs. Your media does know military aircraft are not required to submit any FIRs right ? so us flying in the Aegean does not give you the right to say we are trespassing. You don't own the waters.

Come on Jigs.Do not tell half the truth, tell the whole truth.

It is true that military aircraft do not need to submit FIR requests. That is an exception provided by ICAO. However the problem is that Greece does not want FIRs submitted for anything beyond the 10miles, for anything less than 10 miles Greece considers it to be national airspace. there is where the problem lies. Not the FIR requests submission . So to answer your question, according to Greece's official (and legally established position) you can fly anywhere you want in the Aegean even without FIRs so long as you don't come closer than 10 miles. (although Italians, French, US, Israel, do submit FIR requests) !!!!

You don't own the waters.

No, just the ones that are within our legally internationally established national space. Which you (turkey) doesn't accept its established breadth and width.

That is the bottom line, why deny it.

This for example is not acceptable. I also noticed many inhabited islands being claimed as violations and also helping extend coastal ranges. This is pointless and will only escalate things.

But dude, they are part of Greece.. what you are saying doesn't make sense, unless you meant uninhabited islands.. which again doesn't make much sense because they are part of a country, inhabited or not, legally it is still Greek soil the extension of the national space around a piece of land has nothing to do with how many people live there, this is not a serious argument Jigs..come on, it wouldn't stand anywhere...

 

[Mehmet]

i expect the turkish navy to do nothing else, but i expect from you to be more than a simpleton .. too much to ask huh ?

oh and by the way, the waters are not up for taking, they are Greece's by international law and established treaties.. it is not the middle ages anymore, where if you could take something you would and keep it.. ottoman aspirations over there , have we ?

You own no more then 6nm, you DONT own the Aegean and neither does Turkey. Maybe you should actually understand the difference between national and international waters.

It has been in the past frequently documented by the TuAF and our navy how
Greek naval and aerial units violate our sovereign waters and airspace. Greece while officially restricted to 6nm by Turkey's threat of war the Greek military despite this occasionally practices an understanding that her national waters are 12nm and not 6nm.

The amount of times Turkish TV showing Greek naval units harassing our civilian and coast guard vessels is amazing and downright arrogant from a country that has been since the early 2000's on the losing end of the Turk-Greek arms race.

When it comes to airspace violations it is no surprise either, you can clearly see for yourself on Youtube the number of Turkey vs Greece mock dog fight videos where tubbers battle between who's country is at fault etc. Yet always the Turkish fighter craft are bingo fuel which logic will give and understanding to people smart enough to see that the Turkish combat aircraft are actually forced to use their reserves having been diverted to intercept Greek bandits illegally entering our airspace. The Greek fighter jets never seem to have such fuel problems. While this is speculative this argument however does have a strong founding given the sheer number of examples of this situation that can be found.

The evidence is always there and with Greece now under a force reduction of 33 percent I do not find it surprising that the Turkish navy has decided to do the same thing that your military has been doing for years.

What goes around, comes around as they say.

Note: This could also be a reaction to your idiotic president calling Turks barbarians when he met up with the Armenian president.

OR

This could also be a Greek ship flying a Turkish flag which wouldn't be surprising since the Turkish and Hellenic navies both operate ex Meko class ships.

 

[Jigs]

Come on Jigs.Do not tell half the truth, tell the whole truth.

It is true that military aircraft do not need to submit FIR requests. That is an exception provided by ICAO. However the problem is that Greece does not want FIRs submitted for anything beyond the 10miles, for anything less than 10 miles Greece considers it to be national airspace. there is where the problem lies. Not the FIR requests submission . So to answer your question, according to Greece's official (and legally established position) you can fly anywhere you want in the Aegean even without FIRs so long as you don't come closer than 10 miles. (although Italians, French, US, Israel, do submit FIR requests) !!!!

If you apply that 10 mile rule to where the incident took place you have little inhabited pieces of rock almost pushing out a 30 mile barrier. This is not acceptable.

No, just the ones that are within our legally internationally established national space. Which you (turkey) doesn't accept its established breadth and width.

That is the bottom line, why deny it.

6nm friend 6nm we give and give but we can't give you more

But dude, they are part of Greece.. what you are saying doesn't make sense, unless you meant uninhabited islands.. which again doesn't make much sense because they are part of a country, inhabited or not, legally it is still Greek soil the extension of the national space around a piece of land has nothing to do with how many people live there, this is not a serious argument Jigs..come on, it wouldn't stand anywhere...

Since when are we applying the legal grounds inline with the international community if that was the case many things would be different. You can not possibly believe inhabited pieces of rock that i can see from Turkey extend 10 mile protection zone around them ? These restrictions would give greece the means to fly all over the Aegean and Turkey limited to no flights without violating some little island some place. Come on amalakas you can't be serious. We have a certain harassment quota to meet here you know this.

 

[amalakas]

You own no more then 6nm, you DONT own the Aegean and neither does Turkey. Maybe you should actually understand the difference between national and international waters.

It has been in the past frequently documented by the TuAF and our navy how
Greek naval and aerial units violate our sovereign waters and airspace. Greece while officially restricted to 6nm by Turkey's threat of war the Greek military despite this occasionally practices an understanding that her national waters are 12nm and not 6nm.

The amount of times Turkish TV showing Greek naval units harassing our civilian and coast guard vessels is amazing and downright arrogant from a country that has been since the early 2000's on the losing end of the Turk-Greek arms race.

When it comes to airspace violations it is no surprise either, you can clearly see for yourself on Youtube the number of Turkey vs Greece mock dog fight videos where tubbers battle between who's country is at fault etc. Yet always the Turkish fighter craft are bingo fuel which logic will give and understanding to people smart enough to see that the Turkish combat aircraft are actually forced to use their reserves having been diverted to intercept Greek bandits illegally entering our airspace. The Greek fighter jets never seem to have such fuel problems. While this is speculative this argument however does have a strong founding given the sheer number of examples of this situation that can be found.

The evidence is always there and with Greece now under a force reduction of 33 percent I do not find it surprising that the Turkish navy has decided to do the same thing that your military has been doing for years.

What goes around, comes around as they say.

Note: This could also be a reaction to your idiotic president calling Turks barbarians when he met up with the Armenian president.

OR

This could also be a Greek ship flying a Turkish flag which wouldn't be surprising since the Turkish and Hellenic navies both operate ex Meko class ships.

Man, I just can't take you seriously .. either get informed or don't comment on things you don't get .. let it be.


Now on serious stuff.

If you apply that 10 mile rule to where the incident took place you have little inhabited pieces of rock almost pushing out a 30 mile barrier. This is not acceptable.

Jigs.. Greece is not inhabited by a bunch of unreasonable people. That is why we (Goverments) called on Turkey to come along and take this issue (i.e. define the cases that allow Turkey special treatment and exemption from the law - covering all the islands that seem to annoy you) to the international tribunal in Hague; but Turkey has denied that request .. WHY?

We are calling you on a resolution that can only give you more than you have now, and you still say NO.. what gives Jigs ?

6nm friend 6nm we give and give but we can't give you more

well, I am sorry Jigs, but the international law doesn't seem to agree with you, 12 miles is what we can get if we want, so we either resolve this permanently via established legal routes and it is 12 miles for all the places but the ones that we have come to a special modification of the treaty with Turkey , or this thing will never get resolved.. and that is not good for either countries.

You must be naive if you think you can resolve this via means of a war right ? This is not 1900 .. the status quo will not change even if there is a war and you win .. Even if we have no planes and no ships and no frikkin army left, you roaming around in those areas won't mean anything. Commerce and investment doesn't happen on disputed territories ..it is unsafe with tremendous consequences for companies ..

unless you'll just be happy floating around on a piece of sea you can't do anything with ..

Since when are we applying the legal grounds inline with the international community if that was the case many things would be different. You can not possibly believe inhabited pieces of rock that i can see from Turkey extend 10 mile protection zone around them ? These restrictions would give greece the means to fly all over the Aegean and Turkey limited to no flights without violating some little island some place. Come on amalakas you can't be serious. We have a certain harassment quota to meet here you know this.

oh man.. jokes aside.. this thing is getting old... so what ..you are some kind of special people that international law doesn't apply to ?
what gives? you came from the lala land and we have to treat you special... come on .. childish things..

and if you ask me, this is carrying on, as much as for internal consumption for Turkey's politics as anything else...

 

[Jigs]

Now on serious stuff.

Jigs.. Greece is not inhabited by a bunch of unreasonable people. That is why we (Goverments) called on Turkey to come along and take this issue (i.e. define the cases that allow Turkey special treatment and exemption from the law - covering all the islands that seem to annoy you) to the international tribunal in Hague; but Turkey has denied that request .. WHY?



We are calling you on a resolution that can only give you more than you have now, and you still say NO.. what gives Jigs ?

You will have to discuss that with Erdogan. Remember though he does not have much say in how the Military likes to operate.

Recent wikileaks also seems to support he has little power over armed forces.

well, I am sorry Jigs, but the international law doesn't seem to agree with you, 12 miles is what we can get if we want, so we either resolve this permanently via established legal routes and it is 12 miles for all the places but the ones that we have come to a special modification of the treaty with Turkey , or this thing will never get resolved.. and that is not good for either countries.

12 miles would pretty much mean Greece now has a effective land border with Turkey. I doubt we could even move fighters out into any type of water without violating something.

You must be naive if you think you can resolve this via means of a war right ? This is not 1900 .. the status quo will not change even if there is a war and you win .. Even if we have no planes and no ships and no frikkin army left, you roaming around in those areas won't mean anything. Commerce and investment doesn't happen on disputed territories ..it is unsafe with tremendous consequences for companies ..

unless you'll just be happy floating around on a piece of sea you can't do anything with ..

Of course not. War is the last thing Turkey or Greece needs. It would be best if we could have effective use of 6nm and little rocks don't count. That seems reasonable.

oh man.. jokes aside.. this thing is getting old... so what ..you are some kind of special people that international law doesn't apply to ?
what gives? you came from the lala land and we have to treat you special... come on .. childish things..

and if you ask me, this is carrying on, as much as for internal consumption for Turkey's politics as anything else...

I think it is happening because the Turkish military is asserting itself in these waters. The flights i myself know are for pilot capability. We have to keep our pilots at a certain level of readiness and operational capability.

 

[amalakas]

12 miles would pretty much mean Greece now has a effective land border with Turkey. I doubt we could even move fighters out into any type of water without violating something.

We understand this, if you could follow Greek parliament proceedings you could see that on numerous occasions discussing the progress of Greco-turkish relations, all political sides have identified this as a real problem for Turkey and a key issue to resolving the matter.

Greece doesn't want to restrict Turkish air/sea space, it just wants to express its -law given- right to 12 miles. But before we do this, we have to come to an agreement with you about all these islands that would -as you say- restrict you.

the problem is the turkish governments do not want to do this.. they seem to want 6 miles throughout the aegean which is simply not viable and not supported by international law.

Now I don't know what Erdogan does, or how he controls his forces.. but that surely is not a good thing .

we need to move forward from this, this is the last major thorn between the two countries ..

 

[Cerian]

oh man.. jokes aside.. this thing is getting old... so what ..you are some kind of special people that international law doesn't apply to ?

Turkey, and some others such as Israel and Syria, are not signatories of United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea, thus it only binds states who signed and ratified them. United States signed, but never ratified.

 

[amalakas]

Turkey, and some others such as Israel and Syria, are not signatories of United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea, thus it only binds states who signed and ratified them. United States signed, but never ratified.

Yes that is true, i never denied that, I even mentioned it a couple of posts up.

One cannot deny however that simply by number of signatories the treaty is law..EU for example considers this the base for business.

 

[Cerian]

Yes that is true, i never denied that, I even mentioned it a couple of posts up.

One cannot deny however that simply by number of signatories the treaty is law..EU for example considers this the base for business.

Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty is a good example. Iran is a signatory of the treaty, but its sanctioned to death due to not fulfilling its obligations. Pakistan and India never signed NPT, thus restrictions of NPT doesn't apply to them. It's a treaty that's signed by whole world, but not by remaining four countries.

 

[Mehmet]

We understand this, if you could follow Greek parliament proceedings you could see that on numerous occasions discussing the progress of Greco-turkish relations, all political sides have identified this as a real problem for Turkey and a key issue to resolving the matter.

Greece doesn't want to restrict Turkish air/sea space, it just wants to express its -law given- right to 12 miles. But before we do this, we have to come to an agreement with you about all these islands that would -as you say- restrict you.

the problem is the turkish governments do not want to do this.. they seem to want 6 miles throughout the aegean which is simply not viable and not supported by international law.

Now I don't know what Erdogan does, or how he controls his forces.. but that surely is not a good thing .

we need to move forward from this, this is the last major thorn between the two countries ..

You state that Greece does not want to restrict Turkey on her maritime and airspace yet the desire for Greece to expand her maritime borders to 12nm remains and as you yourself have stated, you believe this to be your legal right.

Sorry but if that means Greece actually has rights over water that would in essence block Turkish ships from navigating from one point of Turkey to the next and then your aircraft by law having aerial access to mainland Turkey then sorry buddy but this aint going to happen.

In this situation it is Greece and not Turkey that is the hindrance to the normalization of relations.

The 12nm expansion of maritime borders is also a privilege of nations that can afford to expand their maritime borders to such distance it is not a legal right and under situations where two nations such as Turkey and Greece would have overlapping maritime borders this is definitely not a legal right.

 

[amalakas]

Sorry but if that means Greece actually has rights over water that would in essence block Turkish ships from navigating from one point of Turkey to the next and then your aircraft by law having aerial access to mainland Turkey then sorry buddy but this aint going to happen.

No, I never said Greece must restrict Turkeys maritime navigation and airspace navigation.
What I said is:

Greece has over 3000 islands and islets in the Aegean.
The islands that pose a problem for Turkey if the 12 mile expansion takes place are but a handful.

What Greece has attempted to do on a number of occasions is to get Turkey to accept 12 miles for the remaining 2990 or so islands and then go to the international tribunal in Hague and find a fair and just solution for both countries for the remaining 10 or so islands and islets that cause the problem to Turkey.

Do you honestly believe that I would stand here in front of you and say to you that our airspace extends into your country and Greek waters are up to your shores ?

Ofcourse not and neither do you believe that any Greek would suggest that.

As stated previously, the Turkish side attempts to prevent 12 miles for the entire Greek sovereignty , which is very ilogical.

what difference would for example have a 12 mile extension to Turkey of an island that is nowhere near Turkey?

the answer is none whatsoever, but turkish foreign policy is trapped in a weird predicament when it comes to the Aegean.

I think this needs to be resolved and sterile denials of progress will not move us forward.

Unless there are more reasons Turkey does not wish 12 miles for Greece

 

[Azatavrear]

12 NM is the norm for all teritories. All Aviation charts depict this 12nm from coastline. It seems to me that the Greeks are being very reasenable and Turkey is trying to change the norms of navigation and world charting standards to rob the Greeks from their territory. There is a reason why it is 12nm, it has to do with safety of air operation and sovereignty.

Also by not filing a flight plan or maintaining contact with authorized ATC (not to mention flying above 18000ft where is mandetory to file IFR) without being assigned a transponder code they are creating a major traffic collision alert and danger to passenger carrying jets and none military aircraft who are flying those routes which could cause deversions and backups in ATC systems.

 

[Mehmet]

The viewpoint from Turkey is once the approx 2990 islands get the 12nm approval and are recognized by both sides then it wont take long for Greece to use it's European connections to push forward with the remaining 10 islands.

Sorry but this is the truth and not just paranoia as any Turk can point to several additional and unfair clauses for Turkey in entering the EU as a comparison such that the source of these additional clauses for EU membership is for Turkey very obvious.

Now do you understand the reason?

 

[Hawk Eyes]

i hope turkey bombs these greeses back to the stone age.